Silver Spoons: Fashion and Class .. See Post #1 for Thread Rules.

[liketheboys]

As I see it, it's all an image that we all buy into, and we're all keeping it going in our interest. We're all interested in the fashion industry and the exclusivity of it. It's a little sad, that who you know is so important I guess.

I think it's maybe a little too simplified to say they should just pay all their interns. So many different industries work like this. You get your degree, but you have no experience so you have to gain that too, and as there are so many people wanting to do these jobs you often have to do it for free to get the experience. As nice as it would be if they could all get paid.
Also, I love these huge fashion magazines. If the handful of editors at the top weren't absolutely the best at what they do there's always going to be thousands of people trying to get there too.

 

[mikeijames]

very interesting discussion, but one must also take a step back and realize that those who come from affluence have access to the tops of MOST industries, not just fashion. while we in america like to delude ourselves into thinking that everyone can make it based on their own merits, one but need examine the captains of industry and the leaders of the various fields to find that the rich still stand sovreign over many different disciplines.

also, one must differentiate between talents and skills. the reason some designers get propelled forward comes in their innate talent not because of their skill. one can learn a skill, but one cannot learn a talent. one can develop it, but, if it's there, it's there. i believe that many reasons the rich has one leg up over the poor comes because they're able to learn the tricks of the trade -- the skills necessary really -- to perform at the top of their respective industries. anna wintour's father was an editor, for example. the exacting nature that allures us so about her surrounded her from birth.

finally, let's not forget the power of the network. very rich and powerful people know very rich and powerful people. so when it comes down to a deadline and you need a story. or you need an exclusive. the ability to get someone on the phone becomes make-or-break. while it might help to have the best education in the world, the network these people has becomes more valuable. again, this isn't just in fashion journalism, but in all of journalism really and so many other arenas.

 

[KhaoticKharma]

I wonder if a lot of it has to do with values (and I mean that in a very different sense than morals). I go to a prestigious public university- prestigious, yes, but still public, and while there are certainly a great number of students that went to tony boarding schools in New England, the majority of students are from upper middle to middle class backgrounds, and don't even consider working in those fields. Fashion, like the film industry and the art world in general, is risky- and risky doesn't pay back college loans. The majority of students majoring in the arts plan on getting master's degrees and becoming teachers or professors; whenever I reveal that I'm an English major, people immediately assume that I plan on going into education. For those from exceptionally well to do backgrounds, not only is the lifestyle fashion magazines selling a lifestyle they are accustomed to, but they also have the comfort of knowing that they can lead this opulent lifestyle making chump change because they don't have to foot the bill. Very few of my friends are interested in high fashion; those that are mainly started following because of Lady Gaga. The vast majority of them prefer Cosmo over Vogue, and one even said she dislikes Marie Claire because there is "too much fashion." So while I definitely think that there is institutional and individual discrimination, I can't help but also contemplate how much of it could simply be attributed to middle/lower class disinterest in true high fashion.

 

[dauphine]

I think it's easier in any industry, if you have more of a cushion financially. It's easier in college to have internships rather than working some random job part time, it's easier once you get out to pull up stakes and go back to school if you want to, or quit your job. I have a friend who switches careers entirely every 2-3 years or so. This is not possible for some people.

 

[Master Wood]

class has absolutely no effect on design, some of the best designers come from less than desirable backgrounds, Galliano, McQueen etc, and to a certain extent I think the same occurs in magazines.

I mean who was Anna Wintour, granted she had a successful father, but that was nothing more the upwardly mobile bourgeoisie. Anna got to where she is because she is one the most astute intelligent women in existence. Same with many of the other Vogue editors, Alexandra Shulman didn't have a desperately exciting upbringing neither did Carine. I'm not saying they were brought up on a council estate, but they aint no royals.

However I think there exists a realm where class is integral. Sara Buys of HB (UK) Plum Sykes Vogue (US) and Emily Sheffield Vogue (UK) but I think this comes with the territory, magazines need these lifestyles and connections to exist.

 

[tigerrouge]

That said, the social and educational benefits that pretty much automatically come along with a comfortably middle class existence in southern England can still seem very distant to large sections of society, who wouldn't consider fee-paying schools and fathers well-connected in Fleet Street as signs of relative deprivation.

 

[CherryHumbug]

I'm really glad to see that I'm not alone in my frustrations with the industry in this respect. As a fashion promotion student, I have been heavily encouraged throughout my university course to take up internships. The reality of the matter is that, many internships (in my experience, at least) will not consider taking you on unless you can commit to 3 months. with travel, food and other 'overheads' taken into consideration, for someone without income, an unpaid 3 month internship is VERY costly business.

We have also been advised to take up internships whilst we still have some sort of financial support in the form of student finance, an idea which is generally unsupportable and unsupported even by the tutors who advise us to do this - 1. a student loan is not enough to cover these costs, still, if it was it would be a joke and 2. as a degree student, taking 3 months out of a course would be 'frowned upon' by tutors.

I do find that, on my course, the students who are doing the best in terms of internships are silver spoons, with their parents' money behind them, it's easy to be able to cover these incurred costs. Anyone else I know, doing the same thing, have impossible schedules and are having to work weekend jobs, too - essentially killing themselves over it and potentially all areas of their work(s) suffering as a consequence.

As a blogger, I feel that I can't compete with those who are wealthy and/or willing to spend out larger amounts on clothes - something, in my current position, which I cannot and will not do.

I definitely feel that the fashion as an industry is frustrating for anyone who doesn't have a lot of money at their disposal. I work my *** off on my course, and have worked hard to prove myself on the few internships I have done; but I do feel that in terms of giving up my time and money, I'm losing out on opportunities to those who are fortunate enough to have extra money handouts from their parents.

 

[MimiV]

I thought a lot about this issue when I was in fashion school. My teachers told me, "after these three years, you can get an internship..." and I almost bursted out laughing because to me paying 3 years of private school with the goal to work for free is absurd. And I do know tons of stories of people who have graduated from fashion schools who have rent to pay and therefore can't take that internship with the big designers; their classmates however, did and after a few years they get a real job there.

But at the same time, this applies to most fields not only fashion. It's unfair, but we live in an unfair world

 

[dauphine]

It's unfortunate - to be able to pick a job simply because it's what you 'want' to do, or for the career experience, and not because you need the pay is really a luxury.

 

[Lapin de Lune]

That said, the social and educational benefits that pretty much automatically come along with a comfortably middle class existence in southern England can still seem very distant to large sections of society, who wouldn't consider fee-paying schools and fathers well-connected in Fleet Street as signs of relative deprivation.

I'm a bit late to this discussion, sadly, but this comment really struck a chord with me. About a month ago I saw a youtube documentary (can't recall the title, sorry) concerning this very topic, which followed the lives of the fashion elite, and those who were wealthy enough to belong to the haute couture inner circle.
It was a depressing fact that pretty much ALL of the women involved were supported by very wealthy husbands, and never the other way around. It reminded me that in high class circles at least, the women are still almost entirely dependent upon men.

 

[Lina5]

I guess you mean "The Secret World of Haute Couture," the BBC documentary?

 

[AD122915]

I'm a bit late to this discussion, sadly, but this comment really struck a chord with me. About a month ago I saw a youtube documentary (can't recall the title, sorry) concerning this very topic, which followed the lives of the fashion elite, and those who were wealthy enough to belong to the haute couture inner circle.
It was a depressing fact that pretty much ALL of the women involved were supported by very wealthy husbands, and never the other way around. It reminded me that in high class circles at least, the women are still almost entirely dependent upon men.

I dont think that buying expensive clothing for your spouse makes the other partner "dependent"... Marriage is not about financial status of the partners and the partner with higher income is not automatically dominant and the other one submissive or 'enslaved'.... These women would prolly have comfortable life without rich husbands...

I do find that, on my course, the students who are doing the best in terms of internships are silver spoons, with their parents' money behind them, it's easy to be able to cover these incurred costs. Anyone else I know, doing the same thing, have impossible schedules and are having to work weekend jobs, too - essentially killing themselves over it and potentially all areas of their work(s) suffering as a consequence.


As a blogger, I feel that I can't compete with those who are wealthy and/or willing to spend out larger amounts on clothes - something, in my current position, which I cannot and will not do.

cough <Stella McCartney> cough cough

 

[kimberwyn]

Not surprising coming from an industry that is inherently classist and was created to distinguish royalty from commoners.

People with money and connections have a leg up in life in general, but it seems to get even worse in creative and entertainment related fields. Not only interning, but also testing, submitting, etc., which you generally are not paid for and have to spend money out of pocket. It's just expected to do things for free for years before they pay off.

And fashion bloggers are making it worse. Many of them are trust fund babies anyways, and most of them are able to spend more on clothes than the average 20-something. And if you're not an attractive, skinny white woman you can pretty much kiss any opportunity of becoming successful online goodbye. They're also taking away positions from people who have actually gone to school, interned and worked their rear ends off, despite their background.

I dont think that buying expensive clothing for your spouse makes the other partner "dependent"... Marriage is not about financial status of the partners and the partner with higher income is not automatically dominant and the other one submissive or 'enslaved'.... These women would prolly have comfortable life without rich husbands...



cough <Stella McCartney> cough cough

...because of trust funds that come from their parents wealth, most likely their fathers. Which still puts us back at dependent on men.

And while it shouldn't be about those things, sadly those things do exist in marriages, even more so in non western parts of the world. And let's not forget marriage was established as an exchange of property to begin with lol.

 

[fashionista-ta]

*Edited*


I don't think being different is necessarily a hindrance ... look at how some of the most successful models have gone against the popular type.

Passion seems to overwhelm the odds ...

 

[kimberwyn]

*edited*

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't negate my point. ***edited***

I don't think being different is necessarily a hindrance ...

That's what we call privilege.

look at how some of the most successful models have gone against the popular type.

Passion seems to overwhelm the odds ...

Not entirely, *edited*
That's part of my point anyways -- the rest of us have to be 10x better/smarter and work 10x harder to be considered half as good. The whole "pull yourself up by your bootstraps and work harder!" trope is just a very privileged view of the world and it derails the larger issue at hand.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I wouldn't call it a privileged view of the world, I'd call it the only one that works.

*edtied*

Just pointing out that the way to make something happen for yourself in fashion (if that's what you want) or wherever is not to make a long list of all the obstacles standing in your way, but to get really passionate about making it happen. Obstacles have a tendency to get out of your way if you insist on it. And most really successful people work really hard, **edited**.

If there isn't anyone in your niche, that means you can be first and you'll own it.

 

[kimberwyn]

^ I wouldn't call it a privileged view of the world, I'd call it the only one that works.

*edited*
Sounds like the same old ignorant bootstraps schtick you hear from every over privileged person who fails to realize their own privilege.

*edited*

Obstacles have a tendency to get out of your way if you insist on it.

Again you're basing this on...what? Assumptions? Useless anecdotal "evidence"?

*edtied*

If there isn't anyone in your niche, that means you can be first and you'll own it.

Glass ceilings are so romantic aren't they?
If only we had the privilege of living in such a naive world lol.

 

[fashionista-ta]

I can see that emotions are certainly running high here ...

My point is this. Yes, we should have a level playing field. Yes, there should be equal opportunity for everyone. We aren't there yet, and I certainly have no plans to put my life on hold until we do get there. I hope you don't either.

Individual effort is part of the equation.*Edited* Yes, some people have more obstacles to overcome. Each of us, making individual efforts, whether on behalf of ourselves, a larger cause, or both, changes the world.

It's extremely rare for anyone, no matter how privileged, to simply be handed exactly what they've always wanted. No matter who you are, you have to make it happen.

Energy spent complaining about how many obstacles there are, and how much the world sucks, is energy not spent making it happen.

I would love to be told how one achieves success without expending personal effort of any kind. I know of no such way.
**Edited***

 

[kimberwyn]

@wild roses - Thank you! *Edited*


*edited*


It's more than possible to make strides in your industry and still call out what that industry is doing wrong, just as it is possible to devote your career to a cause and make an impact. Nothing would change if they just kept their head down like you want them to.

And why are you even in this thread to begin with if you have such an issue with people calling ~complaining about obstacles~? That was the entire point of this thread.

*Edited*

 

[BetteT]

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