The Ownership of Creativity...

[marrimoda]

Yes -- I remember that story about Kaisik Wong...being ripped off by Ghesquiere...which puts a shame to the legacy created by Cristobal Balenciaga, as well as Kaisik Wong. I had looked up his work after hearing about the incident...and I fell in love with his work, is technique, aesthetic. He was really inspired - with spirit as the key. Are those two words related by the way?

Also on this subject...a guy I knew who worked in a well known vintage shop in nyc told me that Marc Jacobs people came in to his shop on a regular basis to collect ideas. They were the major customers at that particular shop. But we are not surprised are we??!

I love to study old pieces to see how they were done...but damn...

Come to think of it, art students regularly are advised or assigned to go to the museum to sketch from pieces on exhibit. I know I had to draw a van gogh piece in pastel medium. But it was for my learning process -- not for me to slap my name on --and certainly not for me to make a profit.

I just found the Ralph Lauren case referenced in one of my design industry textbooks. The Business of Fashion, chapter 6...shows the tuxedo dress by YSL, and the other by Ralph...Exact same dress, double breasted deep V, with a halter style neck...even the lapels are the same width. Only Ralphs dress appears to be shin-length, YSL's dress is floor length. The text does say that design laws are much stricter in Europe as you said softgrey. I just dont know why the apparel industry trade groups dont lobby for more support for passage of a law...after all, our laws, including trademark law, is based on the English law anyway. Well, I know Kate Spade has been agressive in taking actual legal action...but I dont know why an industry group wouldnt fund some research on the economic impact of this, and build a case.

Another tidbit on Ralph, supposedly he also "borrows" textile prints too...directly without even changing a single thing.

Can you tell I find this revolting?

 

[softgrey]

maybe the americans are the ones stealing all the ideas ...so they don't want tougher laws...

i'm just guessing...but look at how many of these guys are american...even TOM FORD>>>
ralph, marc, let's face it ...those are the two top-selling american designers...
why would they want tougher laws...???...

then everyone would see they can't design their way out of a paper bag...

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Wonder if Marc is on the 'by-invite only' guest list.

 

[Luna]

Trying to get into the design world myself... this topic always comes up. How do you come up with a design idea and try to have it not knocked off?

It sucks that there's really not much out there for designers to do. You can copyright a logo... but not an idea...

Sucks

 

[softgrey]

no other designers as far as i know...

 

[Scott]

Its a crime and should indefinitely be punished. You get punished in this country for every other creative medium,but the sheer ignorance is so obvious in that they still treat it as a mere business so therefore,creative rights,doesn't even matter to anybody. And its stupid though,that most of the designers are copying European designers when the law of copyright infringment(whatever it's called)is in play. Don't they realize if they play with fire they'll eventually get burned?

And how Miuccia Prada,and even Karl Lagerfeld can still get away with things,I don't get either.

But it kind makes me think of a quote Ann Demeulemeester had given a while back(quoted by Julie Gilhart) saying that she thought about "5% of the industry were innovators whilst the rest are just followers". I think this statement also applies here as none of these people can and never will try to come with their own ideas so they not only copy from the past but they're also copying their colleagues as well. Which is really sickening. Its like being in school again...you'd get trouble if you copied things.

 

[kit]

maybe the americans are the ones stealing all the ideas ...so they don't want tougher laws...

i'm just guessing...but look at how many of these guys are american...even TOM FORD>>>
ralph, marc, let's face it ...those are the two top-selling american designers...
why would they want tougher laws...???...

then everyone would see they can't design their way out of a paper bag...

Isn't it the old designer/stylist dichotomy ?

Yves Saint Laurent and Rei Kawakubo are DESIGNERS as they create(d) new shapes , adapted clothes of one sex for another , etc etc

Karl Lagerfeld and Tom Ford are STYLISTS as they adapt other's ideas , use costume etc and ' put it together ' .

Both categories use junior designers and muses , but it's the creative firm hand that makes something new , not just raiding the dressing -up box or the vintage stores and sitting and looking at the books of photographs of other's work .

Yves , admittedly , had Loulou de la Falaise to inspire and help him , but his firm hand is always there as can be seen from the video I have of David Taboul's film ' 6 Avenue Marceau ' which is unfortunately like watching paint dry , but despite the effect of years of sustance abuse and anti - depressants , as well as the discomfort of the steel corset for his spine , HE can be seen to make the decisions from his creative wellspring , despite its last falterings .

Karl Lagerfeld had people like Gilles Dufour and has Amanda Harlech to come up with ideas .
Tom Ford had Carine Roitfeld to ' inspire ' him , and people like Stefano Pilati to do the actual donkey work of designing .

And dat's de truf .

Sorry that I've ruined too many threads since Monday

I'll finish now .

KIT

 

[softgrey]

spot on dear kit...couldna said it bettah myself...

howdya like my noo yawk accent???>>>

 

[softgrey]

wait a minute...you've been here since monday?...did i miss something???...like a couple of days of my life...didn't you just get here?...i may be losing it...

 

[faust]

Its a crime and should indefinitely be punished. You get punished in this country for every other creative medium,but the sheer ignorance is so obvious in that they still treat it as a mere business so therefore,creative rights,doesn't even matter to anybody. And its stupid though,that most of the designers are copying European designers when the law of copyright infringment(whatever it's called)is in play. Don't they realize if they play with fire they'll eventually get burned?

And how Miuccia Prada,and even Karl Lagerfeld can still get away with things,I don't get either.

But it kind makes me think of a quote Ann Demeulemeester had given a while back(quoted by Julie Gilhart) saying that she thought about "5% of the industry were innovators whilst the rest are just followers". I think this statement also applies here as none of these people can and never will try to come with their own ideas so they not only copy from the past but they're also copying their colleagues as well. Which is really sickening. Its like being in school again...you'd get trouble if you copied things.

BTW, ever notice Ann Demeulmeester's tags? All of them have copyright notice.

I think there is more to this. Maybe some kind of a collusion? Think about the term "trends". So, we are looking at a handful of shows for a particular season, and all of a sudden we see trends, meaning either similar or identical things prevailing in the shows. How is that possible? How is it that the supposingly independently working designers come up with very similar (or the same) things? Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but how can different designers all of a sudden come up with a similar look in the same season?

 

[Johnny]

BTW, ever notice Ann Demeulmeester's tags? All of them have copyright notice.

I think there is more to this. Maybe some kind of a collusion? Think about the term "trends". So, we are looking at a handful of shows for a particular season, and all of a sudden we see trends, meaning either similar or identical things prevailing in the shows. How is that possible? How is it that the supposingly independently working designers come up with very similar (or the same) things? Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but how can different designers all of a sudden come up with a similar look in the same season?

I've often had that exact same thought. There must be some degree of collusion. Maybe someone who works in the industry can help out here - softie? I also wonder whether the "trend" thing is actually artifiially created by mag editos. Accross a few years/seasons I suspect that you could find common threads (excuse the pun) throughout differrent collections over different years.

By the way, the essential problem is that copyright doesn't protect ideas it protects the physical manifestation of ideas. That's why there's not necessarily any protection for "a jacket with back to front zipping" - what's protected is, more or less, the exact design, since that's how the back to front zipping idea is manifested, either on paper or in 3d. There's very little that designers can do to stop others taking even key "elements" of their design and using them in cheaper versions. That's actually a bigger problem than direct copies.

 

[softgrey]

faust...because they all look at the trend reports ...
and because there is a natural evolution to things...
one thing naturally follows another...it's continuity...


not collusion...

 

[softgrey]

ok...more...

johnny...mag editors are required to identify some common trends...even if they are sometimes a bit far-fetched...in order to create stories for the magazine...

if a designer does something that is too wildly different...it won't fit into the story and thereforre ...won't get the editorial coverage they all so desperately need and want...

 

[helena]

Johnny I see you couldn't avoid the legal debate any longer! LOL.

 

[softgrey]

thinking about the days before the internet...ny used to be the last city to show...and the ny designers were always accused by the europeans of copying europe...

as some of us may or may not know...thes collections are basically put together in at the very last minute...so there were rampant rumours that major fashion editors were discreetly paid to report back to designers in ny from their front row seats in paris and milan...

that was part of why new york decided to start showing before europe...to prove they weren't stealing...

of course now...we all know that anyone can see anything minutes after it walks down the runway...

 

[softgrey]

By the way, the essential problem is that copyright doesn't protect ideas it protects the physical manifestation of ideas.

wether it be the idea or the physical manifestation of the idea...doesn't it boil down to the same thing in practice?...

 

[faust]

faust...because they all look at the trend reports ...
and because there is a natural evolution to things...
one thing naturally follows another...it's continuity...


not collusion...

Who makes the trend reports? What is the time frame? So, the designer must look at the trend report 6 months before the show, so he has time to prepare. Then, the customer waits another year to get the actual clothes. So the forecasters predict what the customer will want in year and a half? What a bogus industry .

 

[softgrey]

Johnny I see you couldn't avoid the legal debate any longer! LOL.

you know...i was hoping for some expert legal opinions here...

 

[faust]

wether it be the idea or the physical manifestation of the idea...doesn't it boil down to the same thing in practice?...

haha, no tricky language, miss!! "Boil down to the same thing in practice."

 

[softgrey]

Who makes the trend reports? What is the time frame? So, the designer must look at the trend report 6 months before the show, so he has time to prepare. Then, the customer waits another year to get the actual clothes. So the forecasters predict what the customer will want in year and a half? What a bogus industry .

there are trend forecasting agencies...i think the big ones are in europe...and i believe they are usually working 2 yrs ahead...

it's not so bogus...i think it's fascinating...
it seems to have to do with sociology and anthropology;...
analysing the patterns of society...there is no doubt that you can see certain patterns and overall trends...it's very fluid...it's like a swarm of bees...moving and undulating and all suddenly changing direction ...

and the analysts are watching everything and listening to music and watching, films and studying the economy and watching world politics...and basically checking peoples' moods...in an effort to predict what the upcoming direction will be next...

i think it's really cool...i'm always trying to do that...