using animal skins in handbags

[angel]

(first of all i want to say i consulted a mod about making this thread and was told it was ok. i'd like to have a reasonable discussion about this, i know emotions can run high when talking about this kind of stuff, but it would be great if we could all be civil and just have an interesting debate )


i was reading in the Hermes thread where a few ppl were talking about the use of python and zebra skins..and i wanted to reply but since my comments were going to be only about the use of skins and not about Hermes, i thought it would be more appropriate if i made a new thread.

i'm someone who loves animals a LOT, first of all. most of my pets have been rescues, and i abhor animal cruelty. but at the same time, i carry leather bags. i suppose i have told myself in the past that the skins were only used from animals that were eaten as well-somehow that made it less bad to think about-but being honest with myself i dont think thats true. so..i wear leather shoes and coats and carry leather bags. but when it gets into animals that are endangered, like python, then it kind of bothers me a little bit that bags are made out of them. but thats for me, thats MY beliefs. there are some who dont have a problem with it and thats THEIR beliefs. i dont want to cram my beliefs down anyones throat, just as i dont want anyone else doing same to me. i guess i feel that pythons are endangered and we shouldnt be using their skins.

when it comes to zebra skin, i'm against that too, but in thinking about it i have to ask myself why, as theyre not endangered. what makes it ok to use cow skin and not zebra?

i love the chloe python silverado...i probably wouldnt buy it because of the python, but honestly 2000+ is out of my leage bag wise right now, so its easy for me to say no i wouldnt do it. could i honestly say i wouldnt buy it if money wasnt an object? i dont know :/ i think that bag is gorgeous. i'd love it in pewter

if there came a day when they could come up with a man made material that looked and felt just like the softest most distressed leather, and top designers started using it to make fabulous bags, i would ::absolutely:: pick the faux leather over the real. but i have a feeling that day is a long ways away :/

ps-i'd like to keep this topic off fur, as i mean it to be bag-specific, and most bags are made out of various skins, not fur.

meh..i thought my thoughts were more organized than that but it doesnt seem that they came out that way...anyways, i'm interested to hear anyones opinions on this

 

[masquerade]

alligator meat goes to third world countries. so alligator is good. not that i could afford it.

i try to not think about the animals used to make the bags etc. I guess thats irresponsible or immature, but whatever.

 

[renferme]

Zebraskin is not real - it's either ponyhide or cowhide printed. Same effect, much less cost.

I'm afraid I can't comment on reptile skins, because I don't know if they are hunted /trapped or farmed.

 

[angel]

ladymuck-thats a good point too..and i dont know the answer to it either :/

masquerade-do you mean that when they use alligator skin for a bag, the meat from that alligator goes to feed people? i hadnt heard that before..

 

[Luna]

People in Florida eat Gator meat... they are farmed... I'd assume that the skin goes to SOMETHING...

 

[fashionista-ta]

Angel, I like that you brought this up. I am not a vegetarian, I eat meat of all kinds (I've had alligator before! a bit chewy ... it is eaten in this country) ... I guess I take more of a native American approach that when we use animal resources we should use them wisely, completely, humanely, and sparingly.

I have never liked the way snakeskin looks, so no issues for me there. I am wearing my new ponyskin shoes as we speak (perhaps a bit early ), and I'll admit to having some doubts about them. Calfhair I wouldn't think twice about, but this, I'm not so sure. Animals really aren't treated very well in this country, and I have a feeling there are places where standards are even lower.

All my dogs are rescues, and I foster for a rescue organization. I know someone who's very involved with greyhounds and has adopted multiple former racing dogs, as well as dogs who were bred to race but rejected, and I've learned alot from her about how racing animals are treated (very, very badly).

I think it's right that we think about where our food, clothes, and shoes come from.

I know you said this thread wasn't about fur ... I am not a fur wearer, but astrakhan is way over the line for me, and a good example for me of what is not an ethical way to make clothing from animals.

 

[angel]

Angel, I like that you brought this up. I am not a vegetarian, I eat meat of all kinds (I've had alligator before! a bit chewy ... it is eaten in this country) ... I guess I take more of a native American approach that when we use animal resources we should use them wisely, completely, humanely, and sparingly.

I have never liked the way snakeskin looks, so no issues for me there. I am wearing my new ponyskin shoes as we speak (perhaps a bit early ), and I'll admit to having some doubts about them. Calfhair I wouldn't think twice about, but this, I'm not so sure. Animals really aren't treated very well in this country, and I have a feeling there are places where standards are even lower.

All my dogs are rescues, and I foster for a rescue organization. I know someone who's very involved with greyhounds and has adopted multiple former racing dogs, as well as dogs who were bred to race but rejected, and I've learned alot from her about how racing animals are treated (very, very badly).

I think it's right that we think about where our food, clothes, and shoes come from.

I know you said this thread wasn't about fur ... I am not a fur wearer, but astrakhan is way over the line for me, and a good example for me of what is not an ethical way to make clothing from animals.

i eat meat too..i eat meat and i wear leather, but i still try to help animals as much as i can. i hate this rigid stance that some animal activists have, that youve got to be a vegan who never wears or eats any animal products, or else you dont really give a damn about animals..thats just not true.

ive heard about the greyhounds and the way theyre treated and i think its horrible..i really think the racing ought to be outlawed, but i doubt that'll happen as it makes money for people. i'm glad there are ppl trying to help the dogs find homes tho.

about the ponyskin-yeah i'd probly have doubts too. i LOVE horses. but again you have to ask yourself-if pony isnt ok why is cow? because horses are prettier than cows? its interesting how the human mind works...

i agree that it also has to do with how you use the animal. for instance i see a difference between a guy who goes out and kills a few deer a year, freezes all the meat to feed his family in the winter, uses the hide for clothes/shoes, ect...and a guy who just goes out to see how many deer he can kill, and just gets rid of the bodies, andjust wants the antlers to put on his wall. i think theres a big difference between the two. we are a meat eating, animal killing people and there is no getting around that right now..but we can at least try to be more responsible in the way that we do it.

 

[Luna]

... Half of the time, those skins with hair is simply just hair on calfksin...

 

[fashionista-ta]

Angel, one thing that bugs me about vegan leather is it's made from petroleum, a non-renewable resource. Leather is renewable. (Granted, there are also vegan shoes made of hemp, rubber, etc.)

The difference between calfhair and ponyhair to me is that I eat beef (I avoid veal for the most part), but we don't eat horsemeat (knowingly, anyway) in this country. I believe it is in some dog food ...

I also know that most beef and pork slaughterhouses are humane. (And btw, largely due to the work of a single autistic woman, Temple Grandin, with the support of major fast food chains.) I don't know anything about horses and have a feeling the whole process is probably quite shady.

 

[Guessgirl96]

I'm a vegetarian, and just like you angel I love animals. Leather from calfskin and cows and things that are killed either way, I dont think is bad, becuase no matter is there is a market for leather or not they'll still be killed for food, theres just less waste this way.

But python is endangered, would they hunt it for food alone? I'm thinking they prabably hunt it for the skin as I think that it's the most valuable part, and the meat is just sold on the side. I dont think python are famred becuase couldn't they just release some into their habitat and make it so they aren't endangered? I have a python silverado, and although I feel really guilty, I'm not about to give it up. It may not be the right way of thinking, but thousands/millions of snakes are killed either way no matter if I buy the handbag or not.

It's the same with skins like crocadile, zebra, ostrich -- I'm thinking they're prabably killed primarily for their skin, but the meat is sold as well. Not that I could afford any of those leathers, but if I could, I dont think I buy anything zebra or ostrich, mostly becuase they're both cute and I'd have more sympathy for them. I feel bad for Crocs and pythons but somehow it's just not the same.

 

[kare2711]

Angel, I hear you! Like you, I animals like no tomorrow. I even went Vegetarian once because I couldn't bear eating them, but my flesh is weak. Anyway, I digress.

I totally didn't know that python is endangered. And I was hankering after the Gerard Darel python leather bag.

And yes, I do carry leather bags, and wear leather shoes. But I wouldn't want to touch anything that's endangered (like eating sharks fin in our culture).

Thanks for telling me that!

 

[crepebacksatin]

i heard a thing on npr a little while ago that talked about horse meat/hide. found an article here, if you're interested

 

[fashionista-ta]

Angel, I hear you! Like you, I animals like no tomorrow. I even went Vegetarian once because I couldn't bear eating them, but my flesh is weak. Anyway, I digress.

I totally didn't know that python is endangered. And I was hankering after the Gerard Darel python leather bag.

And yes, I do carry leather bags, and wear leather shoes. But I wouldn't want to touch anything that's endangered (like eating sharks fin in our culture).

Thanks for telling me that!

It's banned in California. You'll notice when looking at online shopping sites that genuine python items all say, "Cannot ship to California." Bless their little lefty hearts

 

[renferme]

Just to add: you can usually tell the difference between ponyskin and cowskin - on pony, the hairs are shorter and sleeker.
But did you know that a lot of horse hide is used in shoe manufacture? Especially for suede, because horse suede is really good quality for the price, or for leather with a really soft handle (for driving shoes /mocassins for instance). There are no laws (in the EU) saying you need to say which animal the leather came from, only that it is leather. Brazil is a big producer of horse hide.
In the case of most leather - it is a by-product (yes even horse), because to farm the animal for hide alone is expensive - look at the price of a real fur coat to see what I mean.
This was pretty much proved when many cattle were slaughtered and the whole carcasses were burned during the mad cow disease period. The price of hides went through the roof.

 

[esiders]

I've always been told that "ponyhair/ponyskin" is treated cow hide. Same with "zebraskin".

For the record, cows that are used for their hides (ie leather) are NOT used for their meat or milk. Cows are bred for specific reasons: leather, dairy, beef. Dairy cows are generally not eaten; beef cows are not milked. So you are fooling yourself if you rationalize wearing leather because the other parts of the cow were used.

 

[renferme]

I've always been told that "ponyhair/ponyskin" is treated cow hide. Same with "zebraskin".

For the record, cows that are used for their hides (ie leather) are NOT used for their meat or milk. Cows are bred for specific reasons: leather, dairy, beef. Dairy cows are generally not eaten; beef cows are not milked. So you are fooling yourself if you rationalize wearing leather because the other parts of the cow were used.

No, sorry leather is generally a by-product. I work in the shoe trade and spend A LOT of time at tanneries and working with leather. Most cheap leather comes from Brazil where it is a by-product of the meat industry.

To farm a cow for hide alone would be unworkable - the price for the return would be too high. Even the kid that is farmed in Spain, for its' leather, go to any local restaurant and there will be kid chops on the menu.

You CAN buy pony or cowskin - I prefer to use pony because it looks better. I've used both and I know the difference.

link

I quote from the link

''Cattlehides are a by-product of the meat-packing industry, and their supply depends solely on demand for meat.''

 

[Luna]

^^ Agreed Lady Muck... Cows are raised to be either a beef cow or a dairy cow.... but not Leather cows.

 

[Diorling]

Today at Vuitton I found out they have an animal conservation effort. Rather than making the Fur, Lizard and other more exotic bags they only do orders, so only the amount that is needed is killed. I found that pretty decent of them. Also Lizard skin is registered, so if you dont get a registration card for the lizard than it is illegal...

 

[gigi leung]

^^ Agreed Lady Muck... Cows are raised to be either a beef cow or a dairy cow.... but not Leather cows.

Thank you Lady Muck & Luna! It is very interesting to know that supply of leather is very much dependent on the demand for meat. I like the way Luna describes it.."you don't raise them to be leather cows ". And thanks to Angel too for starting this very informative thread karma points for you!!

Lady Muck, would you happen to know how the leather trade or industry works? How do companies ( e.g. Hermes ) get hold of the best/top grade leather? Just wondering whether there would be auctions for leather...

 

[fashionista-ta]

Just to add: you can usually tell the difference between ponyskin and cowskin - on pony, the hairs are shorter and sleeker.
But did you know that a lot of horse hide is used in shoe manufacture? Especially for suede, because horse suede is really good quality for the price, or for leather with a really soft handle (for driving shoes /mocassins for instance). There are no laws (in the EU) saying you need to say which animal the leather came from, only that it is leather. Brazil is a big producer of horse hide.
In the case of most leather - it is a by-product (yes even horse), because to farm the animal for hide alone is expensive - look at the price of a real fur coat to see what I mean.
This was pretty much proved when many cattle were slaughtered and the whole carcasses were burned during the mad cow disease period. The price of hides went through the roof.

I'm not an expert, but I did immediately notice the difference Lady Muck mentions between my ponyhair and calfhair shoes. The hairs on the ponyhair are definitely shorter, and there's a ... richer sheen to it. It's a very noticeable difference to me. I also bought these shoes and got their description directly from the designer's own website/store.