Anna Wintour Out of Vogue Soon?

The British are a unique society due to their geographic position and their history. They have avoided any major invasion in their modern history (the last one of real consequence was Guillaume the Conqueror and his French nobles), they have culturally isolated themselves for centuries

That British Empire novel where they went out and spent all that time in other cultures while importing products and people back home certainly made for great fiction. Who knows how it would have turned out in reality! Thank god they isolated themselves, and didn't have the biggest empire in history, with the accompanying historical tragedies and triumphs over one-quarter of the world's population, until such rule started to decline around 1947.

'Cultural isolation' makes it sound like the British have been sitting in a darkened cupboard for the last 600 years, when they have been actively involved in rather a lot of the world's affairs, for better or worse.
 
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^I am talking about culture, you are talking about politics and economy. Normally, these should go hand in hand but in the British case, it does not.
The British colonisation did very little to enrich the British culture. Yes, they did import products but they didn't import the cultures. The British colonial notoriously took very little interest in the natives (with few historical exceptions, like Lady Mountbatten) so they were no real cultural exchanges.
Compare to the French colonial who were very aggressive in trying to impose French language, culture and educational systems in their colonies and did import far more people than the British ever did. And among those who settled in England, very few were those who managed to integrate themselves in the English society. They remained foreigners, while in France, integration was and still is possible.
Consider also the fact that France was invaded over and over due to its geographical position, and that immigration is a very old phenomenon over here. England, on the contrary, was never really invaded after Guillaume or had waves of immigration until after the end of WWII (the Irish notwithstanding).
For a country that has been present in virtually every part of the globe, they have very little to show for it in term of cultural flexibility and integration of foreigners.
The British culture isn't described as insular by sociologist for no reason.

I stand by my point that the British have been culturally isolated (and I do not mean cultural or political autarcy) until recently.
 
It's very fashionable in history at the moment to view 'the British' as essentially useless, a revisionism that almost comes as a reflection of the identity crisis the country currently thinks it has.

I can only speak from my own sense of things, looking at what I have experienced from the inside out, certainly, things may look different from the outside in, especially with the tendency of history to be altered to suit the needs of whoever is telling it.
 
Alexandra Shulman is a great editor but i dont think shes leaving BVogue any time soon!!!
 
The UK is isolated in geographic matters but not in cultural affairs cuz London is the city with the most culture diversity, even more than New York. In London u can find germans, italians,latinamericas,turkish,arabic,hindu people,all religions and millions of differents point of view.
 
^yes, but we were not talking about contemporary Britan.
It's very fashionable in history at the moment to view 'the British' as essentially useless, a revisionism that almost comes as a reflection of the identity crisis the country currently thinks it has.
Useless? Where did I imply that?
Umm, since you're obviously an extremely intelligent poster, I'll assume I write so badly my point about English culture got lost in the process.

I agree with you that the identity crisis is a complete fantasy: it has been created and exploited by the right wing parties and tabloids for their own gain.
PS: I am French but live in the UK, so I have both the outsider and insider point of reference.
The tendency of history to be altered to suit the needs of whoever is telling it.
Very true, and that is why any debate is potentially endless.
I am veering way out of subject so I'll leave it there, but I certainly value and respect the quality of your input and your erudition.
 
I know! We could discuss this until Anna Wintour does leave US Vogue.

I think Britishness is an abstract concept at best, because people in each country that constitutes 'Britain' will have a different view of things, and a different version of history. I would say that the different countries of the UK are worlds apart from each other.

Myself, my parents come from different countries, I was born on mainland Europe, and have lived my life in Northern Ireland, where Britishness is viewed very differently depending on your family history and cultural affiliation. I've met Asians whose parents were born here, they were born here, they're technically more British than I am. But people would assume I was the historical native, because I'm white. Not so.
 
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my dear tigerrouge i think u r quite right, see i think that ur homeland is where u feel in home and where u r safe, so yes that kind of people may be more british that, white people and i believe the uk is a great country, and i love london!!!
and yes we can discuss this until anna really gets fired!!
 
^I am talking about culture, you are talking about politics and economy. Normally, these should go hand in hand but in the British case, it does not.
The British colonisation did very little to enrich the British culture. Yes, they did import products but they didn't import the cultures. The British colonial notoriously took very little interest in the natives (with few historical exceptions, like Lady Mountbatten) so they were no real cultural exchanges.
Compare to the French colonial who were very aggressive in trying to impose French language, culture and educational systems in their colonies and did import far more people than the British ever did. And among those who settled in England, very few were those who managed to integrate themselves in the English society. They remained foreigners, while in France, integration was and still is possible.
Consider also the fact that France was invaded over and over due to its geographical position, and that immigration is a very old phenomenon over here. England, on the contrary, was never really invaded after Guillaume or had waves of immigration until after the end of WWII (the Irish notwithstanding).
For a country that has been present in virtually every part of the globe, they have very little to show for it in term of cultural flexibility and integration of foreigners.
The British culture isn't described as insular by sociologist for no reason.

I stand by my point that the British have been culturally isolated (and I do not mean cultural or political autarcy) until recently.

Sorry to continue this discussion since it is a little off-topic but I really have to disagree with you here, Harumi. The English were aggressive in imposing their rule of law and their language onto native populations in their colonies. (For instance - India, Hong Kong, Malaysia.) And to suggest that they didn't import the cultures also strikes me as absurd, when we think about the English tradition of drinking tea (Chinese origin) and their love of curry (Indian origin) Culture really cannot separated from economics and politics, since those are the social structures by which culture circulates. The whole point of cultural integration is that it comes in and becomes considered part of the home-grown culture, so people are not aware of the foreign origins of what they consider their way of life.

I don't know what sociologists you've been reading who describe British culture as 'insular' but that seems like a national fantasy to me. And everything I've seen in sociology now is trending towards a recognition of hybridity and the processes of globalisation not being a recent phenomenon but a very long process that has been happening over many centuries. Plus, the invention of the 'British' identity and culture is itself a relatively recent phenomenon, linked to the creation of modern nations as we understand them, which are only about 300 years old.

Sorry again for the rant, but this is my area and it always bugs me when I hear the issue being simplified, especially because so much xenophobia and prejudice stems from people's ignorance of what a recent phenomena nations themselves are. (I'm not accusing you of this, btw Harumi! I'm sure you're a very educated and internationally astute person.) Ok, I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
 
The thought of replacing a British editor at a US mag with a Russian one, I think, will veer into how we view countries and their cultural influence, certainly decades ago, the thought of a Russian editing an American magazine would cause different reactions to the ones we have today.

At the same time, an editor will not embody the stereotype of their nationality, they're a person, not a cartoon (even if they adopt a personal style that's easy to caricature).
 
Quote- post 58
Let's face it: the Americans who subscribe to or buy American Vogue form part of the 7% of US citizens who possess passports. They are rather more sophisticated than the bulk of their compatriots who, charming though they are, are more likely to be reading magazines about assault rifles, tractors and two-headed births than Vogue, which they probably consider to be part of the Devil's work.


When I first glanced at your post, I was impressed by your intelligent reply.....until I came to this little tidbit.....until you have the chance to get to know what the other 93 % of us are reading in our outhouses don't judge us so harshly.
 
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^I find it amusing how people often bemoan about American's ignorance tend to be ignorant of Americans.

Before I get fire breathed at me...I have lived overseas for a number of years, and still do. I have an international array of friends. I am also American. And I will have you know there are very ignorant people everywhere. America is not the exception.
 
The thought of replacing a British editor at a US mag with a Russian one, I think, will veer into how we view countries and their cultural influence, certainly decades ago, the thought of a Russian editing an American magazine would cause different reactions to the ones we have today.

At the same time, an editor will not embody the stereotype of their nationality, they're a person, not a cartoon (even if they adopt a personal style that's easy to caricature).

Good point. Aliona Doletskaya certainly does not conform to common Western stereotypes of Russians, rooted as they tend to be in Cold War demonology. In fact, she happens to be quite passionate about breaking down these barriers. Of course, she is quintessentially Russian but in a way that is more evocative of the old Russia and of the White Russians who fled Bolshevism, whilst at the same time being a very modern woman indeed.

There are some American editors with the requisite class and experience to steer US Vogue but not many. Mind you, with the inexorable rise of New Money and the entry into Western Society of a new class of stone-eyed arrivistes from various points east of Suez, or west of Hawaii, "class" is no longer an indispensable qualification for editing top fashion and style glossies. Nor is education, judging by some of the vulgarians and overdressed fishwives one sees in the front row these days.

But we might be in for a sea change if the US elections put an educated, chic First Couple in the White House instead of a pair of goons that might have been dreamt up by a Simpsons artist on heavy medication. It will be rather like the Kennedy era and we might find the top style glossies, like Vogue and Bazaar, reflecting this in terms of a more sophisticated editorial direction. As far as Vogue is concerned, SI Newhouse Jr is quite an intellectual. This is not to say that Wintour's Vogue fails to speak to people who can do joined-up thinking but chief editors often reflect the times and Wintour was good for a post-Cold War era in which greed and venality were virtues.

I remember one of the last great intellectual Vogue editors, Joan Juliet Buck, considering a special supplement for French Vogue in 1999. It would consist of some rather troubling photo-reportage and written reportage from Kosova and northern Albania. There was a helluva row about this once the ad sales people started whining - ad sales people whine a lot, instead of getting on with their jobs - about how this would displease advertisers. The salient question was: what did this have to do with fashion?

As far as Joan Buck was concerned, she was looking back to 1945, when the first images shot in Nazi concentration camps - Lee Miller's Dachau reportage - were published in US and French Vogue. Joan felt that Vogue had a duty to educate its readers about serious issues as well as handbags. They let Joan Buck go after a few more similar run-ins.

It was nonetheless a logical stance and one that we adopted when Richard Buckley was at the helm of Vogue Hommes International. Richard didn't care who he upset and they were too scared of upsetting his partner, Tom Ford, to give him too much of a hard time. Not that it was all smooth sailing. We had the same hassle over a lot of the content of VHI from 2000 to 2003 but our in-house critics had to shut up when they saw the rise in sales figures and ad revenue. And not a single advertiser complained, even when we put photos of violent death in a piece about globalisation and the behaviour of the police in Genoa. Yet when we put a Terry Richardson image of a man licking a woman's nipple on the cover, the copies shipped to the States had to have a spot over the offending contact area.

Conversely, I got a call from some stylist at a leading German fashion mag asking me what the refugee camps in Albania were like. Thinking she really cared, I was just wondering how to tell her when she told me that they had had this great idea about shooting a fashion story in a camp and could I recommend any camps where the people didn't look too bad. I sat there in silence for perhaps a full minute before hanging up on her.

I kid you not. Think about it, folks. Who would you prefer to be overseeing the glossies you bring into your house? Someone responsible like Joan Buck, with her high-minded, doomed ideals or some mindless sociopath who, not content with promoting clothing made by child slaves in sweatshops around the world, with labels tacked on Paris and New York by the designers' "seamstresses", wants to photograph them on victims of crimes against humanity?

I know a lot of you don't care. I see those hundreds of threads in the Magazines section, not a single one of which contains a reference to magazines' written content. But those of you who don't care will have tuned out of this post by know because you have the IQ and attention span of the average tree frog. One of the worst things about being an editor is knowing that plenty of readers out there are not stupid but that the publishers insist that one 'speaks to' the lowest common denominator.

And that could be the major obstacle to installing someone of Aliona Doletskaya's calibre at American Vogue. Mind you, if Obama and Biden prevail in November, there might be a sea change. We're already seeing Neo-Cons behaving like radical socialists. Perhaps we shall see more publishers assuming some social responsibility too. And perhaps some of those of you who need it will get a bit of real culture between your ears and you will evolve beyond posting xenophobic inanities on the web.

PK
 
Ah, magpie! Why do you tempt me so?
Sorry to continue this discussion since it is a little off-topic but I really have to disagree with you here, Harumi. The English were aggressive in imposing their rule of law and their language onto native populations in their colonies. (For instance - India, Hong Kong, Malaysia.)
Yes, but it wasn't for cultural benefit. It was only to better impose their rule the natives: they needed to control the legal system so that the colonisation would be legitimized and they of course needed the population to understand the laws, hence the language enforcement. Beyond that is there any hint that they took much interest in the locals?
And to suggest that they didn't import the cultures also strikes me as absurd, when we think about the English tradition of drinking tea (Chinese origin) and their love of curry (Indian origin) Culture really cannot separated from economics and politics, since those are the social structures by which culture circulates.
Well I have mentioned the fact that they imported products, but I do not consider purely material products as culture. To me, culture is mostly immaterial: myths, languages, ideas, customs, social and political systems, religion, etc. For example, the Japanese did not just import tea, they imported the tea ceremony from China. Now that is a genuine cultural exchange.
The British took the tea, stripped it of all it spiritual and social heritage and even perverted its mode of consommation (one-use tea bag VS re-usable tea leaf). I agree trade is usually interlinked with culture, but to me Britain is an exception.
The whole point of cultural integration is that it comes in and becomes considered part of the home-grown culture, so people are not aware of the foreign origins of what they consider their way of life.
Yes I completely agree but correct me if I'm wrong, everybody in Britain is aware of the foreign origins of both tea and curry, no?
I don't know what sociologists you've been reading who describe British culture as 'insular' but that seems like a national fantasy to me. And everything I've seen in sociology now is trending towards a recognition of hybridity and the processes of globalisation not being a recent phenomenon but a very long process that has been happening over many centuries. Plus, the invention of the 'British' identity and culture is itself a relatively recent phenomenon, linked to the creation of modern nations as we understand them, which are only about 300 years old.
The 'insular' thing comes from my history classes in high-school (where I was thought it was a consensus) and my reading (mostly newspapers, so yes, I have probably been reading the 'trendy' stuff, as opposed to the really authoritative material).
I take your word for it on that point because you are obviously much more informed and educated than I am.
I agree with you about Brutishness. There is no such thing as a unified British identity which is why I have been awkwardly drifting between 'British', 'English', 'Britain'. I know a little about England, nearly nothing about the United Kingdom as a whole. I won't go into the British identity thing as I am completely out of my dept, except to say I don't believe in the media-created 'crisis' nor in the 'broken Britain' nonsense.
Sorry again for the rant, but this is my area and it always bugs me when I hear the issue being simplified, especially because so much xenophobia and prejudice stems from people's ignorance of what a recent phenomena nations themselves are.
Yes, you are so right, which is way I love reading the thoughts of people like you.
 
And that could be the major obstacle to installing someone of Aliona Doletskaya's calibre at American Vogue. Mind you, if Obama and Biden prevail in November, there might be a sea change. We're already seeing Neo-Cons behaving like radical socialists. Perhaps we shall see more publishers assuming some social responsibility too. And perhaps some of those of you who need it will get a bit of real culture between your ears and you will evolve beyond posting xenophobic inanities on the web.
I do not share you optimism as to the Obamas possible influence would they be able to trump the Republican-controlled fraudulent system, but otherwise, fascinating post.
Personally, I read magazine for light relief, not as an intellectual pursuit, but your post made me realise that I was probably brain-washed into thinking magazines are supposed to be light, since people of my generation haven't been served any genuinely intelligent mainstream magazine.
Thank you for the historical background.
 
And that could be the major obstacle to installing someone of Aliona Doletskaya's calibre at American Vogue. Mind you, if Obama and Biden prevail in November, there might be a sea change. We're already seeing Neo-Cons behaving like radical socialists. Perhaps we shall see more publishers assuming some social responsibility too. And perhaps some of those of you who need it will get a bit of real culture between your ears and you will evolve beyond posting xenophobic inanities on the web.

PK

great and interesting post.
 
I agree with you about Brutishness. There is no such thing as a unified British identity which is why I have been awkwardly drifting between 'British', 'English', 'Britain'.

I know it's a typing error but thank you, thank you so much for "Brutishness". I was laughing so hard that my wife got out of bed to come and see what was going on.

I am Irish, of course, but as a former member of the British Army's Parachute Regiment, I must confess to some confusion on our parts as young men when displaying "Britishness" and "Brutishness" to Johnny Foreigner.

Genial! Je vous dois un déjeuner pour ça! Dites-moi quand vous serez prochainement à Paris.

PK
 
I know i can't wait to see how this pan's out i think american Vogue needs new direction but odds are if wintour goes as her contact is due to end soon they'll get someone in who won't really change the magazine. But then again conde nast on the whole are taking risks look how they have brought katie grands new venture Love so maybe its a mass cull or something.
 
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Source | New York Post | November 18th

Is the empress of fashion ready to move on? Sources said Vogue editrix Anna Wintour - who also oversees Fashion Rocks, Teen Vogue and, until recently, Men's Vogue - is mulling retirement. "Her contract is up soon," an insider said. "She's thinking of retiring. She feels she's done it all and had enough. She has been putting out feelers to intimate friends recommending a possible replacement to S.I. Newhouse. She's so tired out, she just let Men's Vogue close instead of fighting for it." Wintour, who has also nurtured the careers of countless designers, would be sorely missed. A rep said, "This is completely unfounded.
 

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