Armpit hair: gross or sexy?

[adorefaith]

i totally agree with you, but the problem with this situation is that the person starts the post saying "i don't care what other people think" and then accuses us to force her to do something?! and then she,actually, tries to manipulate us, try to make us think armpit hair is normal.

i really don't care what other people think, i shave mine and i don't like seeing it on other women, but i don't get offended by anything she says. frankly, there are some people in this thread saying "shaving is unnatural or is a another form of not to be happy with your body" and i don't get offended and try to change their opinions, make them like shaving. so why do they get offended when i say i don't like it, and try to change my opinions in a really disturbingly rude way?

i think its gross, maybe its because of who i am, maybe because of my culture, maybe just because hygene but i don't care i think its gross. someone else can think the exact opposite way, this is my opinion, and this thread is just to give personal opinions, i thought it was a one message thing,people saying what they think about the armpit hair."gross" "sexy" or "normal" or whatever. i didn't know that it was such a debate..
its not a "lets talk about our body hair and discuss wheter we should shave it or not and try to manipulate each other" thread!

hey elly...i respect your opinion and i agree that you shouldnt have to feel manipulated or afraid to share your perspective...

i think perhaps why you might feel as though people are trying to 'change' your opinions and it's not happening the same way in reverse is that everyone has hair, naturally, and some people are calling it "gross"...that's a pretty strong word, and has negative connotations, so i think those with body hair who may not remove it all the time {or who resent the fact that they feel pressured by society to remove it} are feeling like they're being called 'gross' when in fact what they have is very natural, and you have it too...

those who are saying that body hair is natural and fine arent calling shaving or other forms of hair removal 'gross' or 'disgusting'....i think it's just a matter of the words being used...if people post that they prefer to remove their hair and they shave regularly, that's perfectly fine...i think the issue is being created with these concepts of 'dirty', 'disgusting' and 'unhygienic' that are being thrown around....they don't make people feel very good about themselves, and they're not very nice terms, which is perhaps why people are reacting quite strongly to them...

also, i think you might feel like you're being attacked because you're in the majority...along with most of society who has come to believe body hair is disgusting, particularly on women, and should be removed immediately....i guess people in the minority feel frustrated at having to battle against this societal idea of body hair being gross and women being less than feminine and sexy if they don't remove it all..

just my opinion..

 

[happytrail]

hehe, this thread is funny!

 

[elly9]

^ isnt it

yeah adorefaith i understand, i just used the word gross because of the thread title! maybe a more proper word should have been used. i don't like armpit hair on myself or seeing on anyone else. thats it

 

[Dohertysgirl]

Yes, we shave all over and lose weight and wear a bra even if there is nothing to support, all in the name of being attractive and accepted in our society. Personally, though I might be wrong in some cases of course, I find that there is a certain age and stage in life where stuff like this matters so much, and then when you start to really grow up and when you become more sexually experienced and self secure, it suddenly isn't that important anymore.

But of course, no one wants to be the hot chick that isn't so hot after all because she doesn't shave her armpits.

 

[indie]

I used to think that armpit hair was gross and I have shaven it since it first started to grow (well, since I have noticed it). That maybe has something to do with my late ballet hobby...

but lately I've noticed that some of my friends don't shave and they are perfectly hygiene, for that matter. I've got no problem with it.

 

[iluvjeisa]

But of course, no one wants to be the hot chick that isn't so hot after all because she doesn't shave her armpits.

That depends a lot on what kind of person you are - some people just don't aim to attract everyone

 

[Dohertysgirl]

That depends a lot on what kind of person you are - some people just don't aim to attract everyone

I tried to add a bit of sarcasm there, but I don't know if I succeeded.

 

[weathergirl]

soz...this thread is hilarious! i don't think i want to chime in

 

[adorefaith]

i suppose the wit and sarcasm on the part of some tfs'ers that is spotted throughout the thread is a funny attempt to lighten the mood, but otherwise i don't really find this discussion hilarious

i actually think it's a really interesting reflection of the way so many women feel in society, stuck in or frustrated by certain roles and standards that they feel pressured to uphold. i think it says a lot about the way societal standards of beauty and what is and isnt acceptable have developed, and particularly the different ages and ethnicities of our members provide a really interesting account of the different ways this issue is framed depending on when or where you grew up...

i guess it seems silly to argue over something like body hair but i actually think we're all discussing {perhaps some of us without even being aware of it} much deeper issues of pressure to conform to certain standards, expectations, etc and the affect that that can have on our self worth and self esteem....i think it's really interesting and worthwhile to hear everyone's opinions, and a bit scary sometimes to realise how much of an impact these crazy standards of beauty have had on us, and how far they have permeated our society.

 

[Dohertysgirl]

i guess it seems silly to argue over something like body hair but i actually think we're all discussing {perhaps some of us without even being aware of it} much deeper issues of pressure to conform to certain standards, expectations, etc and the affect that that can have on our self worth and self esteem....i think it's really interesting and worthwhile to hear everyone's opinions, and a bit scary sometimes to realise how much of an impact these crazy standards of beauty have had on us, and how far they have permeated our society.

Agree completely.

 

[seanutbutter]

i think it's really interesting and worthwhile to hear everyone's opinions, and a bit scary sometimes to realise how much of an impact these crazy standards of beauty have had on us, and how far they have permeated our society.

What do you mean? I know many of us who don't like armpit hair feel that way because of the way it looks, not due to any "crazy standards of beauty."

 

[ms-nietzsche]

^Arguably we don't like the way it looks because we've been conditioned to conform to the "crazy standards of beauty"

Personally, armpit hair for me is a definite no. The thought of sweat-covered hair makes me squirm and unfortunately, armpits have a tendency to get sweaty...

 

[elly9]

yeah i think i'd shave my body hair anyway even if i were in a land with hairy people i don't like myself that way

 

[adorefaith]

What do you mean? I know many of us who don't like armpit hair feel that way because of the way it looks, not due to any "crazy standards of beauty."

that's exactly what i meant seanut...the fact that we don't the like the way body hair looks is evidence of how powerful these societal conceptions of beauty really are....you weren't born with a dislike for body hair...it is something you've grown to dislike aesthetically, despite how strongly you may feel about it....i don't believe one can say 'i'd hate body hair even if everyone else loved it' having grown up in our particular society - it would be very interesting, however, to poll young men and women in societies where the media/their peers/family etc have not held the same opinion on body hair as those in our society to see how they feel about it....

 

[cerise meadow]

I recently found an article online on this particular topic of discussion that might bring a little insight to everyone.

What Caused Women To Start Shaving Their Armpits?​

The recorded history of armpit shaving is a spotty one indeed. The earliest reference we have found was that the ancient Babylonians, more than one thousand years before the birth of Christ, developed depilatories to remove unwanted body hairs.

Julius Caesar reported that early Britons "had long flowing hairs and shaved every part of their bodies except the head and upper lip", but this quotation may refer only to men. We do know that barbers removed superfluous hair from the eyebrows, nostrils, arms, and legs from male customers around this time.

The first direct reference to the specific topic at hand is contained in Ovid's Art of Love, written just before the birth of Christ: "Shall I warn you to keep the rank goat out of your armpits? Warn you to keep your legs free of coarse bristling hair?"

In Chaucer's day (the fourteenth century), the mere sight of any hair was considered erotic. Women were required to wear head coverings; caps were worn indoors and out by woman of all ages.

These ancient antecedents predict our current duality about body hair on women. On the one hand, underarm hair is considered unsightly and unhygienic, and yet on the other, sexy and natural.

None of many razor companies or cosmetic historians we contacted could pinpoint when woman first started shaving their armpits. The earliest reports concerned prostitutes during the gold rush days in California. Terri Tongco, among other readers, posited the theory that prostitutes shaved their underarms to prove that they have no body lice, which were rampant in the old West.

Many older readers able to pinpoint when their mothers and grandmothers started shaving their armpits. Not-so-old historian C.F. "Charley" Eckhardt of Seguin, Texas, is the only person we have found who was actually studied this Frustable:

My paternal grandmother, born in 1873, and my maternal grandmother, born in 1882, did not shave their armpits. My wife's maternal grandmother (1898), my mother (1914), and my mother-in-law (1921) all did or do.

Eadweard Muybridge's photographic studies of the nude human figure in motion and Hillaire Belloc's photographs of New Orleans prostitutes, all taken before or immediately after the turn of the century, show hairy armpits, as do nude photos of prostitutes known to have been taken in El Paso, Texas, prior to 1915. In addition, still photographs taken from p*rn*gr*ph*c photographs of the "French postcard" variety which are documented as having been made in the United States prior to 1915.

Theatrical motion pictures released about and after 1915, including Cleopatra (starring Theda Bara), the biblical sequences from D.W. Griffith's Intolerance, and several others, shown shaven armpits. Something, then, happened about 1915 that would cause not merely stars but impressionable teenagers (as my wife's grandfather was) but not necessarily older family woman (like my grandmothers) to start shaving their armpits

So what caused these women to start shaving their armpits around 1915? Many readers, including Charley Eckhardt, give the "credit" to Mack Sennett:

The first moviemaker to show the feminine armpit extensively in non-p*rn*gr*ph*c films was Mack Sennett, in his Bathing Beauty shorts… Sennett's Bathing Beauties had shaven armpits, and they are the first direct evidence we have of the armpit-shaving phenomemon. Whether or not Mack actually said "That look like hell - have 'em shave' is a moot point, though the statement is completely in character with what we know about Sennett.

We do know that flappers of the Roaring Twenties adopted the leeveless clothing that seemed o daring in the Sennett shorts.

We heard from several women who were more concerned about why the custom persists rather than how and when it started. Typical was this letter from Kathy Johnson of Madison, Wisconsin:

I am one of the apparently few U.S. women who has never shaved her armpits or legs. It never made logical sense to me, so why do it? I've heard the argument that shaving those regions is more sanitary. Then why, I volley back, don't men shave their armpits? Why, in fact, doesn't everyone shave their heads if lack of hair is so sanitary? Stunned silence…

Several psychologists and feminists have speculated that men like the shaven look because it makes women look prepubescent - young, innocent, and unthreatening. Diana Grunig Catalan of Rangely, Colorado, who subscribes to the prepubescent theory, speculate that "American woman, unlike their European counterparts, were not supposed to do anything with all those men they attracted with their revealing clothing. A childlike, helpless look can be a protection as well as an attraction".

In defense of men, it has been our experience that many women have visceral reactions to the presence or lack of body hair in men. Why does the same woman who like hair on the front of the torso (the chest) not like it on the back? Why is hair on the arms compulsory but excess hair on the hands considered repugnant? Are women, as well as men, afraid to face the animal part of our nature? Hairy questions, indeed.

4to40.com

 

[adorefaith]

thank you SO much cerise

and what a great idea to bring some outside perspectives/research into this opinionated debate

how interesting that dating back to very early days, hair removal perhaps was started not because the hair was unslightly but because in fact it was considered to be erotic, probably inappropriately so in public..

the mere sight of any hair was considered erotic. Women were required to wear head coverings; caps were worn indoors and out by woman of all ages.

and now we feel the opposite...we cover our underarms or our legs if we havent removed the hair because we're embarassed/ashamed....not because we are aware of what an erotic effect our hair will have on men.!

and without sounding too much like a feminist {i don't consider myself one in the way most people these days seem to use the term...but that's a whole other topic}...how interesting that a man - and a sexist one, it sounds like - is attributed with first showing extended scenes of shaven underarms and starting the whole trend

 

[seanutbutter]

you weren't born with a dislike for body hair...it is something you've grown to dislike aesthetically, despite how strongly you may feel about it....

But how do you know this? I've disliked armpit hair for as long as I can remember. I was never told it was ugly, and rarely heard/read about it in the media, so it's not as if that opinion has been forced upon me.

 

[adorefaith]

....societal pressures and forces, including the media, are much subtler than that...

it's not a 'conscious' programming in the way you may read about other things and slowly grow to believe and/or appreciate them (e.g. you read article after article and hear interview after interview about the importance of eating a balanced diet and so internalise this as something you aim for as part of your healthy living...)

it is a matter of exposure and of impressionable young boys and girls being conditioned without their awareness...it's not something you would necessarily be able to look back on and go 'aha, that's it...that's when i first started to dislike body hair'...it's gradual, and it is persistent, and that is its power....because you grow into a young woman and you suddenly realise you hold certain beliefs about what is 'wrong' and 'right', or 'beautiful' and 'ugly', and yet when you think about them, you cant pinpoint where they came from or how they developed...

you may not have read about body hair in the media or have been told it was ugly....those are very obvious forms of imposing standards, or developing impressions....but you grew up in a culture and a society that constantly advertises razors, depilatory creams, laser treatment and waxing salons....a culture where all the celebrities and models and actresses that you saw conformed to certain standards....the women had smooth legs and no hair under their arms, the men had hair on their legs and on their chests....those were the standards of beauty, in magazines, in movies, on TV....and the people around you re-inforced those standards, willingly or perhaps without even realising....so of course you wouldn't have realised what was going on....

if you grew up seeing women who portray the 'sex symbols' in films and on TV with hair under the arms and on their legs, and the women around you at home and in your community looked the same way, i am quite sure you'd have a different conception of body hair...and you wouldn't think it was ugly, inappropriate or unhygienic the same way you may now...

this is why discussion and awareness is so important imo.

 

[ms-nietzsche]

^It's not fair to blame everything on the media and conditioning, as people do have some sort of consciousness (as least that's what people generally believe).

I think the inscriptivist view of shaving makes the most sense. The perception of arm pit hair in women as unattractive can and has been inscribed onto our bodies. People aren't born a tabula rasa; they are born with certain perceptions and tastes already intact. With the media and societal standards, these tastes are perpetrated.

 

[adorefaith]

^oh absolutely....i didnt mean to imply that we have no control over what standards we do and dont internalise.....of course we do, otherwise there wouldnt be those of us who have been raised in a society where hair is 'gross' but who have re-conditioned ourselves to believe it is perfectly natural....

i suppose my point was that PRE-awareness and consciousness, we have been conditioned by people around us....that can be a good thing, and sometimes not such a good thing....but as long as it is followed by an awareness and a realisation that we actually have other options, and that we arent FORCED to believe anything, no matter how many others do, i think we have the ability to 'free' ourselves from the belief systems that until then we may not have even realised we held...