Ford-less Gucci

[LostInNJ]

Actually,there is this great divide between being a createur and being just a mere stylist. It has nothing to do with personal tastes as Spike said. Thing is,Tom Ford didn't design because he had a design team behind him for whom he just "directed". They did the actual designing. Is that what you consider designing? He's a stylist...purely because he just formalized his ideas into an image for whatever season. Nothing more,nothing less.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what Marc Jacobs does at Vuitton, and Michael Kors did at Celine. I'm pretty sure Tom Ford designed something during his stay at Gucci

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Originally posted by LostInNJ@Oct 21 2004, 03:23 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what Marc Jacobs does at Vuitton, and Michael Kors did at Celine. I'm pretty sure Tom Ford designed something during his stay at Gucci

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Yes, and MJ and Kors are also abysmal failures of the desgin world...

 

[LostInNJ]

Yes, and MJ and Kors are also abysmal failures of the desgin world...

Then why are they never questioned about being designers? (I don't mean to sound annoying or stupid, I just want to fully understand the topic)

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Originally posted by LostInNJ@Oct 21 2004, 03:31 PM
Then why are they never questioned about being designers? (I don't mean to sound annoying or stupid, I just want to fully understand the topic)

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Look up Marc on this forum and you will sense a deep dislike of him by certain parties...

Kors is a different kettle of fish but his work at Celine is pretty dire, IMO, and I'm sure there are others who would agree...

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by Scott@Oct 21 2004, 01:31 PM
You know,there really is no need to patronize me,Mike. I'm not a child.

Do you work on the marketing side of fashion? If not,how do you know what these designer pay attention to? ALL of them I've heard have made it very clear they do not pay attention to trends. Not my thoughts but what they have said. And it certainly doesn't mean they don't care about what their customers want....in fact that's all they think about. I mean,do you honestly equate trendiness with how everybody dresses and buys things?! Nobody is alike and nobody shops the same way as others...individuals darling. That's how these designers think.

And btw,having a business doesn't equal marketeering. Your comparison of these designers with the way Tom Ford worked is absurd. Its like comparing Wal-Mart with Betty's Cermaics....it just isn't that way.

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i'm not patronizing you; i'm trying to keep the tone of this conversation light, as i said before. we're sparring on fashion in an online forum not debating line items on the senate floor.

are they're individuals in fashion? absolutely. are those the people who change the way the world looks at fashion. on some occassions, yes. but it takes much more than "being individual" to make your mark. but you know what...lots of people have no interest in doing that. i'm not saying they're less than, i'm just saying they don't rise to the level of what's called an icon. have you heard of beth frank? i think her work is amazing. she makes belts for a very niche market. she's cute and inventive. i wouldn't call her a fashion icon. i would parade her around parties and such. tom ford changed the way we look at fashion. you say gucci, and you have a clear image. and for many of us, that image is a good desireable one.

i'm not comparing gucci to walmart...are you comparing dries van noten and helmut lang and junya watanabe to betty's ceramics? stores like barneys don't buy your clothes to display them. barneys has a large customer base and knows what they like. again, i say there's nothing wrong with it, it's the nature of the business. just because you happen to disagree with tom ford's personal vision does not mean he should not be lauded for presenting that vision to the world and have millions buy in to it.

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by Scott@Oct 21 2004, 01:54 PM
Anyway,I'm sick of discussing this. I find it rather pathetic that you people are still fawning over somebody who clearly was only businessman and a not a designer. I mean this is fashion. I thought this kind of praise was worthy of brilliant designers not brilliant marketers. He isn't Cristobal or Rudi for chrissake! Will you all be mourning Bernard Arnault like this if he goes??

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so funny you even decide to bring up balenciaga...(so are you saying nicolas ghesquiere fits the bill? ...he's the only reason most people from this generation even recognize that name. that and the perfume.) you can't compare the greats of yesterday to the greats of today...the world has changed.

people in fashion school won't be studying the work of marisa minicucci in ten years, i don't care how true she stayed to her personal and individual vision. tom ford will always be a part of the contemporary fashion conversation.

 

[Spacemiu]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Oct 21 2004, 08:07 AM
you know what, you're right...all of those designers exist in a vacuum and dress imaginary women.

People have their own visions and ideas and they create from that, i don't think it's possible to not be influenced by the world we live in. I consider a designer soem one who creates not produces.

 

[LostInNJ]

Anyway,I'm sick of discussing this. I find it rather pathetic that you people are still fawning over somebody who clearly was only businessman and a not a designer. I mean this is fashion. I thought this kind of praise was worthy of brilliant designers not brilliant marketers. He isn't Cristobal or Rudi for chrissake! Will you all be mourning Bernard Arnault like this if he goes??

Just you because you do not have the same respect for Tom Ford as others do, does not mean it's pathetic to discuss him. He is a public figure, whether you like it or not, and he is someone many people, like myself, admire.

 

[kimair]

Originally posted by Scott@Oct 21 2004, 01:54 PM
Anyway,I'm sick of discussing this. I find it rather pathetic that you people are still fawning over somebody who clearly was only businessman and a not a designer. I mean this is fashion. I thought this kind of praise was worthy of brilliant designers not brilliant marketers. He isn't Cristobal or Rudi for chrissake! Will you all be mourning Bernard Arnault like this if he goes??

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Bernard Arnault wasn't the face (creator) behind Vuitton, Dior, Gucci, etc. I'm sure people would mourn if Galliano left Dior or if Christopher Bailey left Burberry. Whether or not you think they are "designers," they have had an impact on their brands growing by leaps and bounds.

And pathetic? I don't think so. It's one person sharing their opinion. We could say the same thing to you about the designers you "fawn" over. Let's try to keep things friendly; this is an interesting discussion.

 

[Scott]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Oct 21 2004, 04:26 PM
just because you happen to disagree with tom ford's personal vision does not mean he should not be lauded for presenting that vision to the world and have millions buy in to it.

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Isn't that what a 5 page look-book in Vogue magazine(the BIBLE to most women!) will do for a person?

You say those millions are buying into it...well those millions of people are nothing more than victims without clue of who they really are and what their style is. Just followers. In fact,they probably can't even dress without consulting a trend manual first.

You really have backwards ideals. And I'm sorry to say that but this is not the way I look at fashion. Style-wise,its senseless and its boring.

And if you pardon my saying so,I really think Tom Ford had no true respect for women with some of the crap he pulled. What's even worse is that some of them fell for it. I mean overly constricted skirts and blouses...massive heels...its no wonder women haven't killed themselves in the name of wearing Gucci. Do you realisticly believe real women dress like this? And I said,realistically. Not some rich b*tch slave-to-fashion notion.

 

[Atelier]

Wish I could have been there. From today's WWD:

Friday October 22, 2004
Ford’s Fans Flock to Bergdorf’s

By Anamaria Wilson

NEW YORK — He’s still got it. A throng of eager fans waited on line for up to an hour at Bergdorf Goodman on Wednesday night to have their “Tom Ford” books autographed by the designer.

Media heavyweights Graydon Carter, Anna Wintour and Stefano Tonchi made their way through the crowds to greet Ford, who diligently signed copies of his mammoth black tome for two straight hours. There are two editions of the book — black bound for $125 and a deluxe version at $350.

Dressed in his signature black, and surrounded by a fortress of bodyguards, Ford was meticulous about letting the white marker he was using (on the black pages) dry artfully before he shut each and every copy and handed it back to the thankful owner. Clearly the personal appearance worked.

“We sold 250 books, which was beyond,” said Robert Burke, Bergdorf’s vice president and senior fashion director. “It goes to show that Tom is a pro. There are only a few of them in the fashion industry and that coupled with his loyal following made for an outstanding night.”

Of course, given Ford’s penchant for naughtiness, it comes as no surprise that he found himself signing not only his book, but artist Tracey Moffat’s ample chest, too.

“Tom loves me, he loves my art,” said Moffat. “One time at Christmas he sent me black python boots. To this day I still can’t walk in them, but I’ve always wanted to have sex in them.”

The young designer contingent of Francisco Costa, Peter Som and Zac Posen turned up to show their support.

“Whatever he does next, he’ll explode,” predicted Costa. As for a return to fashion, Costa replied, “Why not? He made fashion.”

Som concurred. “He revolutionized fashion. He put sex in the industry when it needed it most.”

Ford is on a veritable media blitz promoting the book. There have been articles in the latest W magazine, WWD’s sister publication, and in last Sunday’s New York Times Style section. This week Ford appeared on “Good Morning America” and “Charlie Rose.” He also gave a revealing interview in the latest GQ, in which the writer Michael Hainey quotes Ford in what appears to be naughty overtures. Reached Thursday, Hainey described Ford’s reaction to the quotes: “He told me he laughed out loud at it. I wouldn’t say he was pissed. You’re talking about a guy who controlled his image for 10 years.”

And was Ford enjoying his return to the limelight? Perhaps less than one would assume. “People think that he loves to have his picture taken and loves giving interviews, but I’m the outgoing one. I’m the one who’ll go to any party,” remarked Richard Buckley, Ford’s partner. “It’s harder for Tom.”

Before the rest of his book tour continues, Ford is jetting off to the Canadian estate of Lawrence Stroll, head of A&G Group and Sportswear Holdings, for the weekend and is looking forward to dressing up. “I look good in tweed,” laughed Ford. Who knew he had any? “I have a custom-made riding outfit.”

The turbulence at Gucci Group continues in the wake of Ford’s departure, with the termination of Gucci chief executive officer Giacomo Santucci (a holdover from the Ford-De Sole years), but Ford declined to share his views on the departure on Wednesday. “I’m no longer with Gucci. My comments don’t matter.”

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by Scott@Oct 21 2004, 11:13 PM
Isn't that what a 5 page look-book in Vogue magazine(the BIBLE to most women!) will do for a person?

You say those millions are buying into it...well those millions of people are nothing more than victims without clue of who they really are and what their style is. Just followers. In fact,they probably can't even dress without consulting a trend manual first.

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Excuse me, but are you somehow insinuating that anybody who has respect for, or was a fan of what Tom did is a brainless twit who obviously doesn't know about REAL fashion, just what they're told is the next big thing? Because if that's the case I think you have some nerve and I'm very offended by that. This is a discussion, there's no place for insulting people here, got it?

Would you be saying any of this about the Belgian six, or any of the Japanese if their label was in the same position as Gucci?

But don't insult those of us who liked what Tom ford did, ok, find another way to get your point accross.

And if tight fitting clothes and stilettoes make a designer someone who doesn't respect women, then there are a lot more then just Tom who are guilty of that. Depending on your view, one could say that Ford actually empowered women by making them the sexual aggressor in a society where that's considered "sl*tty" or "tasteless"...........

 

[Scott]

I wasn't pointing fingers,was I? Merely generalizing the way I've seen things....and that's exactly how lot of people are. If I insulted you I am sorry.

I am done with this thread now,anyway.

 

[Deleted member 1957]

the latest gucci and ysl collections seem like second rate tom ford work>>>which is quite regretable

 

[faust]

Originally posted by Spike413@Oct 21 2004, 02:32 PM
I stand by my statement that it is a matter of opinion. If Ford didn't have any design ability whatsoover, even in the basics, he never would've been hired at Gucci, it's not like he was hired as a creative director on the spot.....he was part of the design team that he then directed in later years.

If you think about it, the Belgian six have revolutionized another area of fashion. Just as Tom created an image of hedonism and luxury, they've created an image of ecclecticism and intrigue.

No, mabye Tom wasn't an extremely talented designer but he did have SOME merit somewhere along the line. And as for the whole celebrity thing, he worked to become one, he didn't intentionally step into the limelight, even though it was a role that he played well.

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That is true.

LostinNJ, it's funny how you've walked into a trap (as Prince pointed out to you). It seems to me like your sense of fashion (for lack of better terms) seems to be very mainstream American. I think it's time to expand your vision beyond the ads and articles of Vouge. Jacobs is a no-show, as anyone will tell you - and just because LV has the biggest adverising budget that makes each magazine sing to their tune, doesn't make the designs better. It's high time people looked at the clothes themselves. So is Michael Kors (for god's sake, his signature piece is a motrocycle jacket, how more unoriginal can you get).

 

[Spacemiu]

Originally posted by Spike413@Oct 21 2004, 09:23 PM

Would you be saying any of this about the Belgian six, or any of the Japanese if their label was in the same position as Gucci?

would you be defending Tom Ford if he was a small unhyped designer who didn't advertise in every publication?

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by Spacemiu@Oct 22 2004, 10:04 AM
would you be defending Tom Ford if he was a small unhyped designer who didn't advertise in every publication?

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I wouldn't need to, he wouldn't be getting crap for it.

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by Scott@Oct 21 2004, 11:13 PM
Isn't that what a 5 page look-book in Vogue magazine(the BIBLE to most women!) will do for a person?

You say those millions are buying into it...well those millions of people are nothing more than victims without clue of who they really are and what their style is. Just followers. In fact,they probably can't even dress without consulting a trend manual first.

You really have backwards ideals. And I'm sorry to say that but this is not the way I look at fashion. Style-wise,its senseless and its boring.

And if you pardon my saying so,I really think Tom Ford had no true respect for women with some of the crap he pulled. What's even worse is that some of them fell for it. I mean overly constricted skirts and blouses...massive heels...its no wonder women haven't killed themselves in the name of wearing Gucci. Do you realisticly believe real women dress like this? And I said,realistically. Not some rich b*tch slave-to-fashion notion.

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i respect your point-of-view, i really do , but i simply don't subscribe to the way you view the world. somehow, in your view, if it becomes popular and it does appeal to real women (and men) around the world, it's somehow not as valid (yes, i have seen people from socialites to ambassadors, from humanitarians to playboys, from athletes and their wives to everyday middle class people in the suburbs wear gucci with passion). i don't think that because something has mass appeal, it's no longer pure. millions of people have van gogh prints hanging in their living room: this does not discredit that work, it hints at its universal reach. i'm not saying what tom ford did at gucci was on the level of monet's waterlillies but he did make a worldwide impression on how women (and men) dress.

and scott, vogue (and every other fashion mag) have done innumerable editorials and features on any number of lesser known designers. it takes something special to capture the imagination of millions. a couple years back, wintour did a big number about galliano's asian travels, it did nothing for me, no one i knew started dressing like that. but, in the circles i ran in back in the late nineties, the gucci look saturated everywhere i went...quickly. and it marked a moment in fashion. tom ford's responsible for that moment.

 

[LostInNJ]

LostinNJ, it's funny how you've walked into a trap (as Prince pointed out to you). It seems to me like your sense of fashion (for lack of better terms) seems to be very mainstream American. I think it's time to expand your vision beyond the ads and articles of Vouge. Jacobs is a no-show, as anyone will tell you - and just because LV has the biggest adverising budget that makes each magazine sing to their tune, doesn't make the designs better. It's high time people looked at the clothes themselves. So is Michael Kors (for god's sake, his signature piece is a motrocycle jacket, how more unoriginal can you get).

My style is in no way mainstream. I like what I like, and that's that-period. I have no problem saying that I like something, whether or not it is splashed across billboards and the pages of fashion magazines. Don't knock me for not liking more avante-garde designers, or for what I like. I have come to find, sadly, that no matter how I voice my opinion on this board, there is always someone that finds a way to shut me down. I am offended by your post, and am sad for you. You are the one that needs to open your eyes

 

[plasticine20]

Originally posted by LostInNJ@Oct 22 2004, 08:30 PM
My style is in no way mainstream. I like what I like, and that's that-period. I have no problem saying that I like something, whether or not it is splashed across billboards and the pages of fashion magazines. Don't knock me for not liking more avante-garde designers, or for what I like. I have come to find, sadly, that no matter how I voice my opinion on this board, there is always someone that finds a way to shut me down. I am offended by your post, and am sad for you. You are the one that needs to open your eyes

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I agree. I usually really like reading what Faust and Scott post... but this time I think it's unecessary. Just because people like some designers that aren't "avante-garde" or belgian(just an example) doesn't make their opinions any less valuable. I'm tired of people sticking their snooty noses in the air and ridiculing others who don't share their same taste or knowledge. Get over yourselves.
Don't get me wrong, I love designers such as McQueen, Helmet Lang, Demeulemeester, Westwood, Theyskens, yamamoto, etc that you all drool over. I do have an appreciation for craftmanship and originally But I also surely know that if i can afford some whimsysparkleyfrufru dress with silk flowers coming out the *** from Heatherette, I'd be prancing around the streets in it. And if I could get my hands on anything from the F/W 2003 Gucci collection, I'd be a very, very happy girl.

Anyways, I think people should leave those with the "mainstream America" taste in fashion alone... when there are more of them, it just makes you look better.