Hip Hop: What is The Message?

[morgan38]

the negative messages about violence and women that is found in mainstream hip-hop continues because that is what the majority of hip-hop lrecord buyers want and dont object to hearing. who are the majority of hip-hop record buyers: white males from the suburbs....so to blame hip-hop for such negative messages is to overlook the overaching (white patriarchal) acceptance and glorification of misogyny and poverty and violence among communities of color

You can't just blame the consumer for the ethical crimes committed by rap world. That would be like saying, "well Hitler wasn't really to blame because the Germans didn't have to listen to him". Also, the majority of people by rap records are kids (both white and black). How can you say that a teenager is to blame for accepting the messages put forth by the rap world. Teenagers are among the most impressionable of society, and thus adults (i.e. the "artists" and record labels) should know that their music may be taken very seriously.

Listening to the rap music lately, the only things that the rap community seems to value are...

-demeaning women/gays/other races/etc.
-violence (towards just about anyone)
-material possessions

And, yes I know that certain rap stars have had songs about issues other than those above, but those rappers hardly make up the majority anymore.

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Teenagers are among the most impressionable of society

I agree with your main point but I don't think this is true. I've never seen any proof of the often cited 'impressionable' nature of teenagers. Unthinking conformism seems to be equally an adult thing...

 

[sugarpea]

As a reaction to Glenn Miller's ilk there was hardcore bebop - a form of music so ridiculously complex that no 'white boy' from the suburbs was ever going to listen to it, or that was the theory. But then look at the artists themselves. John Coltrane fights addiction, Charlie Parker dies of an overdose, Miles Davis takes a break from Jazz to become a pimp. This is a pretty extended analogy but you cannot deny that the culture that created these men - be it 'ghetto' culture, music culture, Jazz culture - clearly have issues with drugs, the law and women. Hip hop or rap just takes it stage further by making these issues the focus of the music. It isn't just what the audiences want to hear.

i understand your point...im not denying that they write what they do because they experience it but they, like other artists, cater to their audiences and also, my main point is that there is no empirical evidence that such negative messages are rooted solely in hip-hop and such messages have a negative effect on hip-hop listeners...the majority of hip-hop listeners are white males from the suburbs who very rarely emulate their fave rappers...

 

[morgan38]

I agree with your main point but I don't think this is true. I've never seen any proof of the often cited 'impressionable' nature of teenagers. Unthinking conformism seems to be equally an adult thing...

True. But, by adulthood I think one's values are probably set and will not change, wheras with a teenager they are still open to change depending on the people around them and the messages they receive from the outside world.

 

[sugarpea]

True. But, by adulthood I think one's values are probably set and will not change, wheras with a teenager they are still open to change depending on the people around them and the messages they receive from the outside world.

well, who runs the music business and wants these teenagers to listen to violent, misygonistic music? male executives..they are the ones who choose which artists they sign, what their records will be like etc...to blame the artists solely is ridiculous....they are part of larger network of people who do not care about violence in urban communities or women generally....

 

[sugarpea]

Listening to the rap music lately, the only things that the rap community seems to value are...

-demeaning women/gays/other races/etc.
-violence (towards just about anyone)
-material possessions

And, yes I know that certain rap stars have had songs about issues other than those above, but those rappers hardly make up the majority anymore.

why dont these rappers make up the majority? because kids in the burbs dont want to hear them and executives dont want to give them better PR....please dont generalize and say that "the only things that the rap community seems to value" are violence and objectification of women, which btw are things that other groups in other genres seem to value as well...

 

[morgan38]

well, who runs the music business and wants these teenagers to listen to violent, misygonistic music? male executives..they are the ones who choose which artists they sign, what their records will be like etc...to blame the artists solely is ridiculous....they are part of larger network of people who do not care about violence in urban communities or women generally....

I didn't just blame the artists.

Teenagers are among the most impressionable of society, and thus adults (i.e. the "artists" and record labels) should know that their music may be taken very seriously.

The record labels and executives certainly share the blame for the ethically corrupt nature of the industry....but so do the artists. After all, nobody is forcing them to make those records and give out those messages.

 

[czilla]

^ Right sugarpea, I'm absolutely with you on that. The misconceptions about the rap community and its intents break my heart. There's a whole thread on Everything Hip Hop with lists and lists of music by scores of people that don't make their name on gangsta rap... To the people that say "well, I like everything but rap..." who further elaborate by saying that you dislike rap bc of the issues put forth and the celebrities it idolizes... Put it this way, a list of drug consuming, death dealing rockstars would be just as tawdry and lengthy (to take yet another stab at one of my idols -- Jimmy Page and little girls? Gah!). I don't think that hip hop and 'african-american music' have in any way originated excess in mainstream culture.

Excess is what consumers seek from our celebrities, be it Jessica Simpson's long-held and long publicized virginity, Fred Durst's sex tape (ha, talk about misogynism... I'm not implicating p*rn, but Fred's example of it is about as demeaning as you can get)...or even couture. It's the extreme sides of the spectrum that catch our interest most vividly.

Anyways, what do we make of the fact that mainstream culture seems to take comfort in pinning these particular excesses -- violence, demeaning attitudes, materialism -- on African Americans? It would be just as easy for record executives to promote the poets and socially conscious rappers.. but they choose not to. Why? I'll posit that most people are more comfortable reviling the gangstas, hoodrats and hoes than dropping their jaws at say.. Talib Kweli's vocabulary... but that's just another heartbreaker.

 

[lady grey]

50's Reebok ads banned in UK for glorifying violence:....

50's Ads Pulled,
By Nolan Strong
Date: 4/19/2005 12:00 pm

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Reebok has pulled 50 Cent’s controversial advertisement from the airwaves in the United Kingdom, after receiving numerous complaints and pressure from anti-gun groups. Over 40 viewers complained about the 50 Cent spots, which are part of Reebok’s biggest marketing initiative to date, the “I am what I am” ad campaign, which also features Jay-Z, Yao Ming, Lucy Liu and others. In the most recent campaign against the controversial commercial spots, Mothers Against Guns accused Reebok of glorifying gun violence and called for a boycott of the company’s merchandise. "When the 50 Cent television advert began to air, a small number of the general public found it offensive," Reebok said in a statement. “Therefore last week, Reebok took the decision to immediately and indefinitely stop broadcasting the 50 Cent spot." [/font]

http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=4311

 

[sugarpea]

50's Ads Pulled,
By Nolan Strong
Date: 4/19/2005 12:00 pm

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Reebok has pulled 50 Cent’s controversial advertisement from the airwaves in the United Kingdom, after receiving numerous complaints and pressure from anti-gun groups. Over 40 viewers complained about the 50 Cent spots, which are part of Reebok’s biggest marketing initiative to date, the “I am what I am” ad campaign, which also features Jay-Z, Yao Ming, Lucy Liu and others. In the most recent campaign against the controversial commercial spots, Mothers Against Guns accused Reebok of glorifying gun violence and called for a boycott of the company’s merchandise. "When the 50 Cent television advert began to air, a small number of the general public found it offensive," Reebok said in a statement. “Therefore last week, Reebok took the decision to immediately and indefinitely stop broadcasting the 50 Cent spot." [/font]

http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=4311

im not sure what this proves....this is not empirical evidence that 50's music will lead to gun violence...

 

[sugarpea]

^ Right sugarpea, I'm absolutely with you on that. The misconceptions about the rap community and its intents break my heart. There's a whole thread on Everything Hip Hop with lists and lists of music by scores of people that don't make their name on gangsta rap... To the people that say "well, I like everything but rap..." who further elaborate by saying that you dislike rap bc of the issues put forth and the celebrities it idolizes... Put it this way, a list of drug consuming, death dealing rockstars would be just as tawdry and lengthy (to take yet another stab at one of my idols -- Jimmy Page and little girls? Gah!). I don't think that hip hop and 'african-american music' have in any way originated excess in mainstream culture.

Excess is what consumers seek from our celebrities, be it Jessica Simpson's long-held and long publicized virginity, Fred Durst's sex tape (ha, talk about misogynism... I'm not implicating p*rn, but Fred's example of it is about as demeaning as you can get)...or even couture. It's the extreme sides of the spectrum that catch our interest most vividly.

Anyways, what do we make of the fact that mainstream culture seems to take comfort in pinning these particular excesses -- violence, demeaning attitudes, materialism -- on African Americans? It would be just as easy for record executives to promote the poets and socially conscious rappers.. but they choose not to. Why? I'll posit that most people are more comfortable reviling the gangstas, hoodrats and hoes than dropping their jaws at say.. Talib Kweli's vocabulary... but that's just another heartbreaker.

awesome....well said man

 

[morgan38]

im not sure what this proves....this is not empirical evidence that 50's music will lead to gun violence...

It's silly to suggest that there must be evidence showing that the rap world promotes violence. That type of evidence will never reasononably exist. It's silly to suggest that we need direct evidence showing that listening to violent music will lead to violent behavior. How would we ever get statistics like that? It's simply a logical conclusion. The messages that people are sent, particularly in their youth, directly affect their behavior. How can you possibly deny that? Let's say a child had two parents who were communists and constantly spewed that rhetoric to their children. Wouldn't it be a fair assumption that their children would be more likely to hold those political beliefs themselves? The messages that a person receives on what's right and what's wrong is often dictated by that person's subconcious. If someone is exposed to constant messages that violence is cool, it's much more likely that he/she will take on that mentality personally. It's not as though a teenager is going to come out and say, "Well I decided to join a gang because Snoop told me it's cool".

 

[lady grey]

the daily news

Im not making any conclusions myself.
Im showing articles everyday of rappers in trouble with the law, protests over rap lyrics, and general societal unease with rap messages.

If thats all cool by you thats fine for you.

there is a huge outcry & worry about hip hops influence on our culture & youth & thast what we're discussing. the fact that many people here are defending hip hop despite it all is good, that shows theres an ongoing dialogue.

 

[lady grey]

Frightening Robbery attempt on Fifty's manager Sha Money in Queens

""50 Cent's Manager Sha Money XL Responds To Robbery Allegations
By Houston Williams
Date: 4/20/2005 3:50 pm


[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Weeks ago Sha Money XL, an executive at G-Unit Records, was reportedly accosted at gunpoint in his native Queens, New York, while attempting to get a haircut. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sha managed to escape the situation unscathed, but told AllHipHop.com that he wanted to clarify the matter, which has been surrounded by rumor and speculation.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“N***as ain’t shoot my whip up, they did set me up,” he said. “I'm still in the hood and got a scope on all these jealous b*tch a** n***s in my ‘hood that ain’t happy for me. [They] wanna eat try [to set me up] again - I will feed them.”[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]According to published reports Sha was temporarily locked inside of the barbershop and the unnamed men told the G-Unit representative that he could no longer come to Queens. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sha said that he’s only attempted to remain grounded and that other rap moguls haven’t done so in the same manner. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Steve Stoute, Clue and Irv [Gotti] blew and never turned around. Here I am doing the opposite and that's the love I get? It’s all good. I'm still breathing - God bless that, [I’m] still rich, back to Jacob for a bigger bezel and bigger piece,” he continued. “I'm still in the hood and n***as know that but famous words from [50 Cent] – ‘f*ck the hood.’[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Queens native concluded that he would continue his work within his organization and keep striving. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“They mad when a n***a get rich like I did and I ain’t turning back, I got my kids money saved,” he finished. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sha has acted as 50 Cent’s co-manager and has produced a number of songs for the G-Unit ""[/font]

http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/

 

[czilla]

^ Thanks sugarpea!

::nod:: I understand what you're trying to do, and it's interesting to have hip hop news vetted for us. I wish there was more of a pitchforkmedia.com for hip hop, but if there is I haven't found it yet. I'm thinking witty, biting, ululating, unabashedly giddy writing about love of hip hop.. with a smattering of news and interviews to go along. Seriously, if such a thing exists, smone please point the way! <g>

What is hip hop's message? I'm not sure, but there's definitely a huge outpouring of writing on the subject. I find myself reading quite a few music blogs/mag critics for great hip hop writing... First and foremost in my <3 is Bay Area native, Oliver Wang, aka O-dub on the interwebs. He used to run Pop Life , but has recently merged with a Poetry for the People teacher/poet Junichi to form PopLicks (= music criticism + humor + politix). Anyways, it's a lot less music focused these days than before, but I'll still follow it regularly. O-dub does a great job of articulating a lot of the issues we've been trying to hammer out here... race, violence, gender tension.. Sasha Frere-Jones, meanwhile, runs S/F-J , but is also the ace music critic for the New Yorker, Slate and occasionally NYTimes.. It always amuses me how these stereotypically upper crust publications strive -- at least recently -- to provide such excellent hip hop criticism.

Anyways, the reason I raise these other writers is bc I think the msg of hip hop can be discussed tangentially to violence. These gossip pieces all sound slightly hysterical... Again, I feel people hone in on these "Street Violence Among Hip Hop Superstars!" by choice. Also, note that the violence seems to follow particular crews that feed off of glorifying themselves, be it through stunts, threats, or actual crime.

Keep it up lady grey, obviously we're loving this forum bc as you said, there's an ongoing dialogue and discussion.. Like Common said in the 6th sense:

If revolution had a movie I'd be theme music
My music, you either fight, f*ck, or dream to it
My life is one big rhyme, I try to scheme through it
Through my shell, never knew what the divine would bring to it [...]

I start thinking, how many souls hip-hop has affected
How many dead folks this art resurrected
How many nations this culture connected
Who am I to judge one's perspective?
Though some of that sh*t y'all pop true it, I ain't relating
If I don't like it, I don't like it, that don't mean that I'm hating
I just want to innovate and stimulate minds
Travel the world and penetrate the times
Escape through rhythms in search of peace and wisdom
Raps are smoke signals letting the streets know I'm with 'em
For now I appreciate this moment in time
Ball players and actors be knowing my rhymes, it's like

"This is rap for real, something you feel"

I know. I can't stop quoting Common. It's ridiculous. I'm still riding the high off Be.

Other links? Other thoughts about what the msg of hip hop strives to be? What others pigeonhole that message into being?

 

[czilla]

It's silly to suggest that there must be evidence showing that the rap world promotes violence. [...] It's simply a logical conclusion. [...] If someone is exposed to constant messages that violence is cool, it's much more likely that he/she will take on that mentality personally. It's not as though a teenager is going to come out and say, "Well I decided to join a gang because Snoop told me it's cool".

Maybe it isn't an issue of rap promoting violence, so much as it addressing it period. Most other genres of music can't touch street violence bc the musicians just don't come from a background where they could possibly encounter it. In contrast to pop, rock, electro, whatever -- hip hop does look violent because it can be actually be violent... Suburban rockers just don't spawn from the sort of environment where they'd ever encounter street violence. It's not what they know. Thus, they cover other issues.. domestic abuse and r*pe (Luka ) come to mind first. So, maybe rap isn't glorifying violence so much as trying to figure out a way to talk about it. Some people live through the experience by taking it to heart and making the streets their life and their identity... People are affected by what is around them as children -- yep, even even communism will get through -- and it would be near impossible for a lot of these gangsta rappers to abandon their experiences.

Just because musicians address these topics doesn't implicate them in some form of subtle brainwashing. It does mean that their thoughts are going to appeal to those in the same situation... and then it's just an issue of those people that have never been in that situation, but go out of their way to romanticize and glorify it.

Interesting comments morgan38.. thanks for keeping our gears spinning. ^^

 

[sugarpea]

It's silly to suggest that there must be evidence showing that the rap world promotes violence. That type of evidence will never reasononably exist. It's silly to suggest that we need direct evidence showing that listening to violent music will lead to violent behavior. How would we ever get statistics like that? It's simply a logical conclusion. The messages that people are sent, particularly in their youth, directly affect their behavior. How can you possibly deny that? Let's say a child had two parents who were communists and constantly spewed that rhetoric to their children. Wouldn't it be a fair assumption that their children would be more likely to hold those political beliefs themselves? The messages that a person receives on what's right and what's wrong is often dictated by that person's subconcious. If someone is exposed to constant messages that violence is cool, it's much more likely that he/she will take on that mentality personally. It's not as though a teenager is going to come out and say, "Well I decided to join a gang because Snoop told me it's cool".

it is not a silly suggestion that you provide empirical evidence...there is plenty of empirical evidence that suggests that music does NOT influence behavior (please refer to the free expression policy project website for this empirical evidence) if you are going to make bold statements that music affects behavior you need to be able to back it up and not simply rely on your inclination...furthermore, if a person who listens to violent music also exhibits violent behavior, evidence suggests that other aspects of their life (their family, neighborhood etc) are violent and thus music serves not as an instigator of violence but an outlet through which one can vent out their violent tendencies...(once again the FEPP website has info on this)...and your communist argument also supports my point...that parents, environments have far more of an impact in enforcing or undermining certain messages in the media. your idea that it is a "logical conclusion" that violent music leads to violent behavior is in fact, no offense, a superficial conclusion...it does not take into consideration the possibility that there is no causal relationship and that other factors are far more important....

 

[travolta]

^czilla, sugarpea good points-good posts. much more eloquent than i could muster

 

[travolta]

i feel like i should elaborate on what i said earlier. i meant some people choose to dismiss a genre. it is like choosing not to see in a certain color. if you limit the colors you see in you will never actually see them for what they are..because you need the contrast. it is like looking at red on a stark white canvas instead of red on a canvas full of all sorts of colors..primary, muddied bleeding into each other like a landscape..or in this case..a soundscape...and then you actually start to get somewhere. the broader the palette the more you can connect the dots. now, this can be applied to the words as well, but i can't tackle that right now.

 

[taste of summer]

Game Hit With Assault Charges, $280 Million Dollar Lawsuit

"Game Hit With Assault Charges, $280 Million Dollar Lawsuit
By Roman Wolfe
Date: 4/23/2005 4:30 pm

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Multi-platinum rapper Game has been hit with assault charges as well as a $280 million dollar civil lawsuit, stemming from an incident at a Maryland radio station in January. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prosecutors in Prince Georges County, Maryland have formally filed assault and battery charges against Game, born, Jaceyon Taylor, after the rapper allegedly assaulted radio host Kwasi “DJ Zxulu" Jones formerly of 93.9 WKYS-FM in Washington, D.C. on January 21st, 2005.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]“The story that’s leaking out there is pretty much true,” Jones told AllHipHop.com in March of 2005. “I was hospitalized with multiple injuries.”[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]According to reports, Jones apparently made a joke about Game’s manager Jimmy “Henchmen” Rosemond’s earpiece attachment he was wearing for his cell phone.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jones’ lawsuit alleges a group of 20 men accosted him and assaulted him in the radio station.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]G-Unit, Shady Records and Aftermath Entertainment are named in the lawsuit as well, since Game is an artist on 50 Cent’s label, which is distributed by companies owned by Eminem and Dr. Dre.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jones claims the record labels were negligent for issuing a remix to "Hate It or Leave It," which originally appeared on The Game's album The Documentary.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On the remix to “Hate It or Leave It” featuring 50 Cent Game rapped: “I’m rap’s MVP/Don’t make me remind y’all what happened in D.C.” [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"This is my public apology,” Game told BET when the video premiered on BET. “To all the people at Radio 1, I'm being sincere; we're sorry about what happened in D.C. It'll never happen again."[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In response to the assault, Jones confirmed reports that a ban on Game’s Records was issued by WKYS’ owner Radio 1, but was later lifted.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jones alleges assault and battery, emotional distress and negligence.[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Representatives for Game had no comment."[/font]

http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/