Is there too much focus on Western fashion?

[Whitelinen]

I am not meaning as white men = white men. I am just using a term used for Western people sometimes. Of course, Western people come in many colours and cultures today, but let's say in the time America was "discovered"... that's why I am using the term "white men", which might not be correct, but I thought it was easily understandable. "White men" are usually referred as the Western people who think of themselves and their culture as the best and want to destroy other cultures to create their thought of "civilisation". So no, I am not meaning here that there are too few black people in the indrusty... although that is true also.

I don't think these smaller fashion weeks, say Sao Paulo fashion week, necessarily get much coverage in their country. If they would, there would be better system to back up the fashion week, i.e as in Paris fashion week, where they receive money from the government.

What I am meaning with this topic is that I don't like it that when Western people want to appreciate something, when they want to experience something and find it respectable, it has to come from Western countries. That's why they don't seem to pay attention to any other fashion weeks or foreign designers (before these designers come to, say, Paris fashion week). This might be the deal in other countries too, but truth to be told, how many Japanese fashion brands can an average Vogue-reader list? However, in Asia there's a huge market for brands like Chanel and Dior. Maybe the problem is in that these other countries, non-Western countries, don't try to resist. Maybe that where the problem lies.

Laika, who has said that fashion is always moving forward within, say, seasons? There were trends thousands of years ago, and they did not necessarily need season, designers or fashion shows. I was talking solely about clothing which is used to be also something else than just coverage; tattoos and piercings are not clothing. I think you are here talking about fashion indrusty, not fashion itself.

That said, the fashion system, like any other, is certainly full of inequalities and prejudices. Figuring those out and attacking them would make a better basis for critique, imo.

Would you like to tell what we should discuss instead

 

[Scott]

so what you mean,essentially,is the innovation or progression of contemporary fashion in the way of trends? newer ideas in the way of clothing itself...

 

[fourboltmain]

That's like saying Western companies are taking over the world, like WalMarts in China and McDonalds in France. It's not that they're pressing their influence, it's just that people want the products. If there was no demand for Western influence, it wouldn't be an issue.

I think it's a shame that cultures with such rich histories aren't being shined on. But then again, what if something so diverse comes to light and becomes mainstream? Then it gets diluted and assimilated and becomes Westernized. Sounds like a catch-22 to me. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

But I'm seeing this as a whole, so I think I may have overshot the point here. Hmm... Maybe it's better to keep things local?

 

[Whitelinen]

Maybe it is better to keep things local (and therefore it is not good for LIMI feu to move to Paris).

I have to agree that people who consume those products keep the companies alive. But can we honestly say that world has become "Westernized" because those countries and cultures wanted that? I don't think so. Western countries have incredible ability and ambition to oppress other countries.

 

[zamb]

I am not meaning as white men = white men. I am just using a term used for Western people sometimes. Of course, Western people come in many colours and cultures today, but let's say in the time America was "discovered"... that's why I am using the term "white men", which might not be correct, but I thought it was easily understandable. "White men" are usually referred as the Western people who think of themselves and their culture as the best and want to destroy other cultures to create their thought of "civilisation". So no, I am not meaning here that there are too few black people in the indrusty... although that is true also.

I don't think these smaller fashion weeks, say Sao Paulo fashion week, necessarily get much coverage in their country. If they would, there would be better system to back up the fashion week, i.e as in Paris fashion week, where they receive money from the government.

What I am meaning with this topic is that I don't like it that when Western people want to appreciate something, when they want to experience something and find it respectable, it has to come from Western countries. That's why they don't seem to pay attention to any other fashion weeks or foreign designers (before these designers come to, say, Paris fashion week). This might be the deal in other countries too, but truth to be told, how many Japanese fashion brands can an average Vogue-reader list? However, in Asia there's a huge market for brands like Chanel and Dior. Maybe the problem is in that these other countries, non-Western countries, don't try to resist. Maybe that where the problem lies.

Laika, who has said that fashion is always moving forward within, say, seasons? There were trends thousands of years ago, and they did not necessarily need season, designers or fashion shows. I was talking solely about clothing which is used to be also something else than just coverage; tattoos and piercings are not clothing. I think you are here talking about fashion indrusty, not fashion itself.



Would you like to tell what we should discuss instead

Well I will give you a pass on the use of the term "white men" (not that i need to, nor am i a defender of any race or Colour of people, I am a defender of truth, Justice and righteousness........ which are things that transcends coulor and prejudices)
You have clarified it to mean western people, Are you then saying that western people are trying to Play God?
And when you say "God" what exactly (or who, if you believe God is a person) do you mean, as God means different things to individuals.
also In some ways western people are indeed more civilized than other peoples. The idea of democracy is something that was born in the west (the Greeks) Of which you are now experiencing the benefits, by being able to freely express your views, with the law providing you the feedom (rights) to do so.........
It is also probably why western fashion (among other things) have progressed so much because designers (and artist) are free to experiment and break new grounds with innovative ideas without being fearful of prison or death.
Christian Dior's 1947 "New Look" collection can also be seen as an example of this , Parisian Fashion had suffered because of the War and Scarcity of materials (can you imagine what fashion would be if europe had become Communist under Hitlers Leadership ?). After the war had ended Mr Dior was free to reintroduce lavishness and excess into fashion by creating garments that used yards and yards of fabric (without fear of being accused of wastefulness by the communists) and thus the term "new Look"

It is in the west that Women have equal rights (albeit lately) to men

It is in the west where being a Christian i can work at a company where we have a Muslim who is best friends and Share an apartment with a Jew.

It is in the west where i can have a respectful, non threatening conversation about politics and religion with my Boss, who is an Atheist.

It is in the west where designers can be openly Gay and Practice thier lifestyle and thier profession without restrictions

an i could go on and on, Of course democracy and western civilization has its problems, I certainly do not agree with a lot of things that exist in wester society , but when you make the comparison, the west allows the greatest number of freedoms and priviliges (i am using these two words as opposed to the word "rights") to the largest number of people with varing ethnicity and beliefs. and that is why western fashion among other things has become so dominant.

 

[zamb]

Speaking of other Fashion weeks and other Talents, i believe i can use Myself as an example......

Athe best of talents in a Given society (there are a few exeptions to this) is directly proportionate to the competition in that society.......
by this i mean when i was living in Jamaica, I was one of the best designers living there. I was probably the bost technically accomplished (by this i mean best able to execute my ideas) of my age range lving in the country.
I pretty much left because there were no opportunities for me, i had done all that i could (knowingly) do as a designer living there.
when i moved to the Us there were a lot of designers that were (still are) better than i was, I didnt know how to but a collection together, how to translate my ispirations into original ideas, How to develop a look/style/way of cutting and executing clothes than made the originally my own.
Ity was by moving to NY and experiencing fashion here that I developed these abilities.
what Major Fashion cities do is that they provide designers an environment to be able to put thier ideas/talents to best possible use
there are a lot of variables that one must consider, things such as "fashion week" is really "fashion month" with NY-London-Milan-Paris,
and this is twice pr year, which meand two months (sometimes even more) away from your family. This is not easy for buyers and editors, sometimes they've seen so many clothes, they probably want to walk naked thereafter.................just to not see anymore.
Some of the smaller fashion weeks are not worth going to.
we have caribbean fashion week in Jamaica ,run by a modelling agency (Pulse international) which is more a platform for thier Models to gain Work, that to develop the Caribbean Fashion industry.
In its inception , a lot of Editors went, now the dont bother as the organizers have done more damage to the industry by thier disorganization and failure to put in the proper infrastructure that would make it worth the Editors/ Buyers time...........
pesonally to me there are too many fashion weeks, too many designers and too little organization into some of these things......

 

[runner]

Carol Christian Poell in person, for example, comes here all alone from Milan to look for new fabrics/materials to use in his new collections.
they do come to the place called far east all the way from abroad.
it's just that not a few labels participating JFW are not appealing enough yet.
it is natural to underestimate it while they do things like this below right after Paris.
to be fair, those JFW designers have to have responsibilities to themselves in some ways.

vogue.co.uk
cfd.or.jp

 

[Bidwell]

So as to not offend anyone, I'd like to clarify what I meant about fashion's origins.
Fashion, as we know it, is time based. It was introduced in the early courts of Italy and France. It has since then spread to all levels of society and has also increased speed in its stages, especially after the industrial revolution and the advent of the modern industry.
Anything before this was based on National Costume, that is to say, one based on place: regional, national, or religious divides.
Until recently, it was still the hub of craftmanship (Made in Italy, for example) but with new markets of production in Brazil, Turkey, and China we will, in my opinion, see ever more local talent emerge.

 

[Whitelinen]

Yes, I am saying that Western people are often trying to play god, with which I mean here someone who has the right to govern all other people. A god is often thought to be "higher" and better than humans. Therefore Western people are often thinking they have some kind of higher power and ultimate civilisation. Yes, there are many things that are better in most Western countries than in Asia for example, but not all. Although democracy was indeed founded in Greece, intelligent civilisations had appeared for thousands of years outside Europe.

As for women having equal rights, I think that is still not true. Let me give you an example. I live in Finland, which is a rich welfare country next to Sweden. Healthcare and social services are free here, people are highly educated and live long. I would say our country is pretty civilized. However, a man's euro is still a woman's 86 cents. Is that equality, that women get paid less for doing the same work? And this is just one example. I know this is off topic in this thread, and if you want to discuss this further I suggest we take this to the feminism-thread in Heart&Soul.

It is true that these big and international fashion weeks offer a better place for designers to work. But why is it that the Western world never seems to be reaching outside its borders? NYC is far from Europe, and it would take approximately the same time, money and effort to go to Japan. There doesn't seem to be any coverage. Do some Western fashionistas even know there are fashion weeks outside Paris and Milan? And that there are budding fashion indrusties all over the world? Just one snippet of coverage would be needed. If style.com would buy photos of the best Tokyo (for example) shows and put them to their website, that would already help. Or if Vogue would give one page dedication to non-Western countries shows? There are Vogues in China, Japan and Hong Kong at least. I bet the fashion writers working for those magazines do check out their local shows also. Some Vogues print the same articles in different editions. Why couldn't it be possible for, say, Vogue Paris to get an article from the headquarters of Nippon Vogue? The Western editors and journalists wouldn't have to fly to see the shows themselves, if someone working for the same magazine but living in Asia does those articles.

Bidwell, thank you for clearing that up. I apologise for the mistake I made with confusing fashion with national costume. But is it still called national costume if there tend to be trends?

 

[Lena]

the 'birth' of modern fashion as we know it is placed at the late 1800's and yes, it is credited to an englishman (Worth) who made a career in Paris, so this actually explains fashion's euro-centrism

'other' continents have been since taken 'hostage' to the influence of european (western) fashion standards, which in fact isnt allowing them enough 'creative space' to explore and develop their own style standards

when taking about 'fashion' continents, its so unfair to talk only about Asia

AFRICA is a wealth of style and creativity, i'd love to see more africans developing their own fashion style

 

[softgrey]

wow runner---that is SO gucci by tom ford!!......
i have had a good look at some of those japanese shows...
or at least an overview...

and truthfully--most of it would not appeal to a western customer...

I was asked to consult for a japanese designer who was VERY successful in Japan- freestanding stores and everything...
she always had a dream to show in NY...
and they asked me what i thought of the colleciton...

it was all POLYESTER!...
this is apparetnly copnsidered a desirable-low maintenance and durable fabric in asia...
NOT in the US..
you say polyester in american and all anyone thinks of is 1970's leisure suits...

WE love SILK...which is basically the cheapest fabric you can buy in asia...
and sort of fragile and high maintenance- so less desirable there...
so there are other cultural hurdles that have to be dealt with...

and once again---
there is the sizing and FIT issue...you cannot escape that humans of different ethnic backgrounds have varying body types...generally speaking...
i know a girl from japan who is the same size as i am...amercan sz 6
she HAS to wear european designers because most clothing made in japan simply doesn't come in her size...
they don't go up that far!!......
so i don't know how anyone can say there is any discrimination...

runner is right---
it goes back to what i said before...
the designers have GOT to take responsiblity for themselves...

 

[Lena]

whitelinen, both westerners and non westerners have their share of responsibility on the cultural imperialism phenomenon

western (cultural) fashion imperialism could have failed if non westerners didnt embrace the western quidelines so damn faithfully

 

[laika]

Laika, who has said that fashion is always moving forward within, say, seasons? There were trends thousands of years ago, and they did not necessarily need season, designers or fashion shows. I was talking solely about clothing which is used to be also something else than just coverage; tattoos and piercings are not clothing. I think you are here talking about fashion indrusty, not fashion itself.
Would you like to tell what we should discuss instead

Whitelinen, I was saying something similar to what Bidwell has said about the distinction between national costume and fashion. I just don't think it's fair to impose the [western] label of "fashion" on any and every custom of getting dressed, be it ancient or contemporary. That's all.
Personally, I think fashion is a system, and can't be separated from the things I listed in my post. But maybe you have a different definition?

I certainly was not trying to tell you what to discuss--I was just trying to be clear about the basis of discussion.

 

[zamb]

whitelinen, both westerners and non westerners have their share of responsibility on the cultural imperialism phenomenon

western (cultural) fashion imperialism could have failed if non westerners didnt embrace the western quidelines so damn faithfully

I agree here just as how ( i might be in trouble for saying this) Black people in 15-19th Century Africa must take some of the responsibility for the Selling of thier Brothers and Sisters into slavery, and the black community today (especially the affluent ones who buy Luxury Brands) must take responsibility for the huge lack (absence/failure) of prominent designers of African ethnicity...................
After over 35 years, the most prominent African american designer (other than Tracy Reece) is the almost 70yrs old Stephen Burrows!

Before there are any discussions i must say i dont regard Jay-Z , P-Diddy or any of the celebrities as any real designer so that doesnt count

 

[Whitelinen]

'other' continents have been since taken 'hostage' to the influence of european (western) fashion standards, which in fact isnt allowing them enough 'creative space' to explore and develop their own style standards

when taking about 'fashion' continents, its so unfair to talk only about Asia

AFRICA is a wealth of style and creativity, i'd love to see more africans developing their own fashion style

True, true. If you were referring to my post, I was only using Asia as one example I am meaning all non-Western countries and continents here. African fashion would definetily be interesting to see getting coverage here.

western (cultural) fashion imperialism could have failed if non westerners didnt embrace the western quidelines so damn faithfully

But could that be because they had to take on these Western influences in order to survive as a nation, and to avoid conflicts?

Whitelinen, I was saying something similar to what Bidwell has said about the distinction between national costume and fashion. I just don't think it's fair to impose the [western] label of "fashion" on any and every custom of getting dressed, be it ancient or contemporary. That's all.
Personally, I think fashion is a system, and can't be separated from the things I listed in my post. But maybe you have a different definition?

I certainly was not trying to tell you what to discuss--I was just trying to be clear about the basis of discussion.

If fashion was indeed discovered here, isn't all fashion Western then? And I am honestly interested in what others want to discuss about

 

[MulletProof]

But could that be because they had to take on these Western influences in order to survive as a nation, and to avoid conflicts?

bingo.
as a non-westener and history enthusiatic, nobody embraced the west "faithfully", the west, among all their atributes and "civilized" behaviour, has also been a barbaric in the way they approached new and different cultures, when you talk about the 20th century and how most countries gave up to them for fear of a total extermination of their culture via violent invasion instead of a suble one (which is what they do now in economy), you're forgetting MANY centuries of abuse, oppression, extortion and massive killings.. if China and Japan (let's not get into Indochine) made it all the way to this century with nearly intact traditions and relatively stable economies, it's only because they were wise enough not to be "faithful" on the offender.. Africa and Latin America, on the other hand, practically started from scratch, which is what the west left us with.

 

[zamb]

. Africa and Latin America, on the other hand, practically started from scratch, which is what the west left us with.

i am not understanding this part of your statement............
are you saying that Africa and latin America, had no History and traditions before ("started from scratch") ?

 

[MulletProof]

No, I said started from scratch meaning the Spanish in Latin America for instance were in charge in destroying both the Inca and Aztec empire.. so our system nowadays, was pretty much built once we got rid of "the west".

 

[Lena]

Originally Posted by WhiteLinen:
But could that be because they had to take on these Western influences in order to survive as a nation, and to avoid conflicts?

this is true on the political level but on cultural/esthetic level, nobody 'forced' them to 'think western' and i'm not only talking 'history', i'm also talking 'present' here.

the problem with non US/EU fashion weeks is that they lean too much towards 'western esthetics', they seem almost 'ashamed' to speak up a new 'fashion' language.
most non-western designers (with Africans and Indians as an exception) copy the Paris/Milan esthetics and try to fit in those standards as closely as possible.
in this way they dont bring in anything new from their culture, while western designers worship 'exotic' styles (see galliano's mongolians, cavalli's far east and jpg mexican inspirations)

 

[Whitelinen]

I wonder why that is? Might it be because the Western culture dominates everything? These fashion weeks need to survive financially. In order to survive, they need to take on Western esthetics. The Western designers worship the stereotypical Western thought of other non-Western cultures. To them these cultures are just full of mascots and stereotypes.