The Use of Cultural Appropriation in Fashion

^But how is history messy? Explain that?

Native American's specifically, are you questioning their existence as the original inhabitants on American soil?

And every single aspect of our lives are culturally appropriated? How?

Can you really deny someone the right to wear a kimono or a Native American headdress, for example, if they genuinely love it? Denying that person that right to wear that headdress is denying Freedom of Speech.
Specifically this... When it comes to the age old headdress in fashion issue, it is one of the clearest examples of cultural appropriation. I made it a point to understand why and maybe you should too: http://apihtawikosisan.com/hall-of-shame/an-open-letter-to-non-natives-in-headdresses/
 
History IS messy! Nothing is simple and nothing is by the textbook. Never has been and never will. History is summed up neatly and packaged into a digestible, understandable story. But think how complicated, nuanced and volatile life and society is now. Do you think that's a modern perdicament? Life and society has always been incredibly complicated, nuanced and volatile. Historians just package it nicely for us to comprehend with a clear cut answer to every question and a moral of the story, too - as if it were all just simpler times, then. To think or believe otherwise is dangerously naïve. Nothing in this world is black and white. Nothing. Everything is grey matter.

And yes - every aspect of our lives is culturally appropriated. Unless you've been living in a vacuum - everything you eat, everything you wear, everything you listen to, everything you consume, the way you cut your hair, the beauty products you use daily, the car you drive, the home you live in...EVERYTHING is a result of centuries of different people, different ideas, different cultures coming together, influencing each other, taking ideas, collaborating, being inspired by and yes, sometimes ripping each other off. All ideas and concepts and designs and creations are an evolution of collective thought. You cannot regulate it. To try to regulate it is absolutely futile and incredibly dangerous.
 
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^ i do take your point, re: overzealous political correctness being, at times, stifling creatively, and i agree that history is tremendously complex and nuanced, very tough to capture.

but i still don't accept D2 calling their collection a "squaw" collection.

i am all for freedom of speech, but again, some things really DO need to be tempered or stopped altogether. look at caricatures of black or jewish people in posters and art of the past - surely that's not "fair game" because history is nuanced and we're a very politically correct society?

similarly, victoria secret models parading around in underwear and a native american sacred headdress, or some white male designers using the word "squaw" to describe their clothes, those things just aren't cool. they're atavistic.

what if someone came along and said this is my "n-word" collection?
JUST NO. some lines do have to be drawn imo.
 
^ Actually, that just happened, right? (The n-word collection)

I didn't think it took a lot to comprehend that there is only one group of people who get to own the n-word and use it, or not.
 
I think it's somewhat irresponsible to lump the use of words that were created solely as derogatory names for a person who is different than you (n****r, squaw, kyke, guinea, *****, etc.) in with the borrowing of symbolism/items/decoration that were never created to offend, oppress or degrade anyone and which, in the majority of cases I would imagine, were never borrowed with the intention of degrading or offending either. They're two ENTIRELY different topics at the end of the day, and one -- the use of offensive, hurtful, racist words -- is a fairly black and white topic while the other is anything but.

As for the question of cultural appropriation, to me it's an all or nothing sort of proposition -- either it's okay to do so when the intention is not to defame or hurt or it's not okay at all and no one should do so. I mean, where do we draw the line? Should non-Caucasian people not dye their hair blonde if they wish, simply because it's a primarily white European characteristic? Should people in East Asia not wear jeans because jeans were invented in America by European immigrants? What about Greek key motifs, or Scandinavian patterned sweaters, or sarongs, or turban-style hats, or big hoop earrings? Should showgirls or drag queens never wear feathered headdresses because they were historically worn as crowns by Mayans and Aztecs? Where is the line drawn between what is totally acceptable culturally appropriated clothing and what isn't? Is it only when it's pulled from cultures that have somehow been more downtrodden than the ones borrowing it? Because as dior couture pointed out above, throughout history pretty much everyone has been oppressed at some point or another.
 
Sorry, but why is it always white guys who are noticing that 'everyone' has been oppressed by now, so it's like, nothing special? :ninja:

Native Americans/Indians are saying that they don't want their sacred symbols appropriated. There is nothing sacred about jeans or blonde hair, to my knowledge. But I'm sure you can imagine that if Victoria's Secret put Jesus on the cross in their runway show, some people would find that offensive. To put it in more understandable language, these are religious symbols.

There has already been a ton of discussion in this thread showing that native peoples are not objecting to everything representative of their culture that could be worn by others ... their objections are much more specific than that.

I understand that some people in this thread have no desire to respect that. But, perhaps it would be indicative of growth if we all did.
 
^ But this topic doesn't just cover a specific headdress that has a specific meaning to a specific group of people, does it? No. It's grown to include kimono, saris, imagery from various African tribes, Inuit and Native American motifs and many other different culturally appropriated items into the conversation, so at this point it's not just about religiously significant references being co-opted by fashion. In case we've lost sight of that, maybe we should re-check the name of the thread?

Since we're on the topic of religious items though, turbans are also tied to religion as opposed to just culture, and are worn by various cultures for reasons beyond mere adornment, so why are turban-inspired hats or literal turbans -- which have been popular in fashion since at least the late 18th century as far as I recall -- not as fiercely defended in this particular thread as feathered headdresses?
 
I think it's somewhat irresponsible to lump the use of words that were created solely as derogatory names for a person who is different than you (n****r, squaw, kyke, guinea, *****, etc.) in with the borrowing of symbolism/items/decoration that were never created to offend, oppress or degrade anyone and which, in the majority of cases I would imagine, were never borrowed with the intention of degrading or offending either. They're two ENTIRELY different topics at the end of the day, and one -- the use of offensive, hurtful, racist words -- is a fairly black and white topic while the other is anything but.

well, to refer to the d2 collection, they did both! they lumped them together, not me.
 
well, to refer to the d2 collection, they did both! they lumped them together, not me.
True, but it's probably for the best that as a discussion they're kept as separate debates. One could defend the clothing if they wanted to. The wording is another matter.
 
Sorry, but why is it always white guys who are noticing that 'everyone' has been oppressed by now, so it's like, nothing special? :ninja:

Native Americans/Indians are saying that they don't want their sacred symbols appropriated. There is nothing sacred about jeans or blonde hair, to my knowledge. But I'm sure you can imagine that if Victoria's Secret put Jesus on the cross in their runway show, some people would find that offensive. To put it in more understandable language, these are religious symbols.

There has already been a ton of discussion in this thread showing that native peoples are not objecting to everything representative of their culture that could be worn by others ... their objections are much more specific than that.

I understand that some people in this thread have no desire to respect that. But, perhaps it would be indicative of growth if we all did.

Agreed 100%.
 
History IS messy! Nothing is simple and nothing is by the textbook. Never has been and never will. History is summed up neatly and packaged into a digestible, understandable story. But think how complicated, nuanced and volatile life and society is now. Do you think that's a modern perdicament? Life and society has always been incredibly complicated, nuanced and volatile. Historians just package it nicely for us to comprehend with a clear cut answer to every question and a moral of the story, too - as if it were all just simpler times, then. To think or believe otherwise is dangerously naïve. Nothing in this world is black and white. Nothing. Everything is grey matter.

And yes - every aspect of our lives is culturally appropriated. Unless you've been living in a vacuum - everything you eat, everything you wear, everything you listen to, everything you consume, the way you cut your hair, the beauty products you use daily, the car you drive, the home you live in...EVERYTHING is a result of centuries of different people, different ideas, different cultures coming together, influencing each other, taking ideas, collaborating, being inspired by and yes, sometimes ripping each other off. All ideas and concepts and designs and creations are an evolution of collective thought. You cannot regulate it. To try to regulate it is absolutely futile and incredibly dangerous.
I wasn't implying it wasn't. Your response read as a generalization so I was seeking clarity.

I think each member of a certain culture have practices that are unique to their people and should be respected. I'll leave it at that.
 
Sorry, but why is it always white guys who are noticing that 'everyone' has been oppressed by now, so it's like, nothing special? :ninja:

Native Americans/Indians are saying that they don't want their sacred symbols appropriated. There is nothing sacred about jeans or blonde hair, to my knowledge. But I'm sure you can imagine that if Victoria's Secret put Jesus on the cross in their runway show, some people would find that offensive. To put it in more understandable language, these are religious symbols.

There has already been a ton of discussion in this thread showing that native peoples are not objecting to everything representative of their culture that could be worn by others ... their objections are much more specific than that.

I understand that some people in this thread have no desire to respect that. But, perhaps it would be indicative of growth if we all did.
Well, first of all, for all the talk of being sensitive to offend, people so quickly love to put down any opinion coming from a white male, as if I had any choice in the matter of my DNA. To render my opinion null and void on the subject because of this fact is incredibly narrow minded.

I refuse to live my life apologetically...tip toeing meekly around everyone, shutting up my opinion out of penitence...as a consequence of the wrong-deeds done by my collective gender/race in history. As if I, personally, am to be held accountable for genocides, wars and discrimination. I will not be held responsible for any of that. Period. I treat everyone in my life with respect and love - no regard to race, gender, religion, sexuality or ethnicity. End of story.

Ultimately, it boils down to your personal views of society and the place of the individual within society. I am extremely Jungian...I believe whole-heartedly in the utmost importance of the individual and the need for freedom for the individual to express themselves in a genuine and purposeful way. I do not like the "masses" dictating what an individual can and cannot do in their personal life and personal expression. I am not suspicious of people and their intentions, like most of the PC-Police these days. Assuming the worst in everyone and in every action only perpetuates negativity all around and continues to instill the aggressor/victim mentalities in societies and cultures.

Things just aren't so simple that you can outlaw or restrict the creative use of anything in this world. If you - as an individual or as a culture - put something out there for the world to see, sacred or not, you have to be OK with people be interested in what you are making and what you are doing. People will interpret it, discuss it, mimic it, use it, be inspired by it. You cannot control that. Period. You can put out a press release saying please stop using "this," but the deed is already done - your creation is in the universe, it's in the public collective consciousness. At that point, there is nothing that can be regulated.

I think people need to realize that the fine line they love talking about in regards to cultural appropriation is not actually how someone interprets an iconographic object...the fine line is really the intention. Is the use or recreation or inspiration coming from a place of love, admiration, respect and awe or is it coming from a hateful place? If it's the latter, hate has no place in this increasingly contemporary society. It will get weeded out...but the freedom must remain intact for people to express themselves - positive or not, so that those who ARE creating out of love are not restricted. You cannot have Freedom of Speech and only want hear what you want to hear or see only what you want to see.
 
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I think weeding out hate and insensitivity is exactly what we're trying to do here.

Personally I think you do have a choice of DNA, but that's another discussion. As a white person myself, I think all of us need to be aware of privilege and its consequences. No one had to warn my little brother that his life could depend on his behavior while interacting with the police and other authority figures--or really, anyone with a gun.

And, most who are both white and male have a lot more privilege than me. And in a lot of cases, gender privilege trumps race privilege--I see it every day at work.

Anyone who doesn't acknowledge the life-and-death consequences of privilege is in denial. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge the monetary and quality of life and life expectancy and incarceration consequences of privilege is in denial. It's one of those aspects of the truth about life that's unpleasant to confront, but that doesn't let any of us off the hook.

Today, right now, no one is at greater risk of incarceration in this country than Native males.
 
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^^^ I appreciate how considerate your beliefs are fashionista-ta. And there's a very potent point you're bringing up: I'm not White, and I'm not hetero. But I am afforded certain privileges because of status.

So, I am very well aware that despite having earned my status as a (relatively) successful individual in my industry, which I'm always confident of my skills and experience, there will always be people that will discriminate against me because of the two factors that I can't help and not ashamed of-- and that discrimination also comes from people that are not White. (And if we want to be frank, the most blatant discrimination I've dealt with were from non-Whites.) I have to just deal with the prejudices coming from all directions. Native men need to learn to empower themselves, educate and work hard to earn their status, as you and I have. That may sound harsh and insensitive, but that's how we learn to survive on our own. And the last thing that's oppressing their situation is the fashion world being inspired by a cultural design of theirs and including it in a presentation. I really don't get where the anger and possessiveness is coming from: I've yet to see any cultural signifier that's of a sacred nature to any peoples, be used in a demeaning, derogatory or mocking manner in high fashion-- least of all the war bonnet of Native (North) Americans. And let's keep in mind we're talking this within the context of high fashion: Riccardo's Givenchy Haute Couture of S/S 2010 with the Middle-Eastern gold face-veils-- but combined with a punk element of spiked "brassknuckles" remains a permanent fixture in my mind of melding cultures and subcultures to a stunning new vocabulary in high fashion. That's beauty redefined and celebrated there. How can anyone criticize and want to segregate cultural inspirations from high fashion when the results are so inspiring, so unifying?

I understand people's sensitivity thinking it's exploitive to use any cultural signifier-- particularly by (Western) high fashion designers. But, no one is devaluing-- at least I don't think so with intent or maliciousness, these cultural heirlooms of a people. Speaking specifically of the war bonnet, the designer versions aren't the authentic ones used in sacred ceremonies. They're Chanel-versions, or DSqaured2-versions, Gaultier Paris Haute Couture-versions; why be so sensitive about a replica that doesn't hold the same meaning and value as the authentic ones...? I don't understand that kind of close-mindedness and self-segregation.

When we are attracted to a design-- hell, even an individual of another culture, that may be the first step in wanting to learn more about the culture, the people. And fashion is the most obvious lure, most obvious introduction for many to learn about another's culture. To stifle that instinctive attraction, all in the name of being politically-sensitive, is really an awful start to segregation, to me anyways.

And in the context of high fashion-- which is what I think most of us adore and why we're here discussing, it's a terrible beginning of how to restrict, censor and police creativity. I think high fashion is one of the strongest proponent of our mind's unleashed imagination to celebrate the human form, and to put up all these barriers and rules is such a huge killing blow to that celebration of creativity. It really is. And all in the name of political-correctness.
 
I hear what you're saying, Phuel.


For me, a memorable example of insensitive 'inspiration' was the canceled Rodarte/MAC collaboration inspired by the mass killing of young women in Mexico. How murders inspire makeup, I'm not quite sure.


Now MAC is famous for its benefit collections ... it would have been a completely different thing if the collection had been raising funds to help end the murders. Instead, it was the perfect example of utterly tone-deaf 'creativity.'


I believe that one of the things we are held responsible for is how we make other people feel. I just don't believe that creativity or creative freedom trumps offense. And I have certainly seen things on the runway I thought were offensive. Based on that, I can more than understand how a designer version of something viewed as sacred by some could offend.


I'm not sure why, with a universe full of creative options, someone would need to create something that enrages people already ground under society's heel.


It's quite true that we have to work hard for our own success, but I think it's also important to make a contribution toward improving the system or society in some way for others. I'm sure that a tipping point is coming, just as it did in South Africa. I hope it comes sooner rather than later.
 
We live in an age of Political Correctness

Do we really? Well this is news to me. Because as far as i'm concerned, we live in an age where all sorts of intolerance are still alive and well. We live in an age where the internet has giving people a mask so they be the most despicable version of themselves. We live in an age where people are still defined by stereotypes. We live in an age where superficiality and idiocy is a source of entertainment. We live in an age where people don't care about the others that much

I find the idea of telling someone from a different race, gender, religion, culture, etc what they should or shouldn't be offended by baffling and beyond insensitive. No one chooses to be offended, people do choose, however, to offend. If you're offended by something or someone, you have a reason. And that reason is not for any outsider to judge. Freedom of speech and artistic expression are wonderful things, but they cannot become shield for ignorance.

When it comes down to fashion, I think what's more offensive about these "ethnic/themed" collections is the fact that it's so dreadfully predictable. It's a half baked idea. It's lazy. It's boring.
 
we live in an age where all sorts of intolerance are still alive and well. We live in an age where the internet has giving people a mask so they be the most despicable version of themselves. We live in an age where people are still defined by stereotypes. We live in an age where superficiality and idiocy is a source of entertainment. We live in an age where people don't care about the others that much

it's true. while there is political correctness in some ways, there is just as much ignorance and anonymity bumping up against it. the internet is alive with that. just look at gamer-gate as an example.

and as for native head-dresses and war-bonnets, many indigenous people have said they find it offensive, so i'll take their word for it.

while a high fashion designer's intent may indeed be based on curiosity, inspiration and beauty, it's important to remember that these things filter down - in diluted and shallower versions - into the mainstream, and so you have all sorts of hipsters wearing native head-dresses, feathered headbands, and so on, at coachella. or you have urban outfitters selling smudging kits. it's all a little bit thick.

i get that we're in a globalized culture and that this blending is par for the course, to some degree. but a little bit of consciousness and empathy goes a long way. we need to listen if people say that something is offensive.

and marc10 is right. doesn't it just dodge the artist's /designer's responsibility to at least TRY to be original?
 
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I find the idea of telling someone from a different race, gender, religion, culture, etc what they should or shouldn't be offended by baffling and beyond insensitive. No one chooses to be offended, people do choose, however, to offend. If you're offended by something or someone, you have a reason. And that reason is not for any outsider to judge. Freedom of speech and artistic expression are wonderful things, but they cannot become shield for ignorance.
Honestly, I believe the opposite. Every individual has the choice to take offense. Being offended by someone's doings or remarks only gives the offender power and their words or actions validity. An individual's self worth has to come from within. As a gay male, do you know how many times I've been called f*ggot? Tons. But I have never once chosen to take those words offensively. I easily could have - and I know many people who do take it offensively - but why would I let someone else's ignorant behavior ruin my attitude and my self worth. Being offended is ABSOLUTELY as much of a choice as offending.

And I suggest you read this article about the age of Political Correctness we DO live in.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/01/not-a-very-pc-thing-to-say.html

Ultimately, I just cannot fathom how you all suggest cultural appropriation to be regulated - since it sounds as though that's exactly what you expect. What do you suggest to be done to eliminate "insensitive" creative uses of cultural appropriation? Who's going to decide what's culturally insensitive and what isn't? What will be the standard of punishment for those who violate these so called standards of sensitivity?

I'm curious, because the way I see it - it's absolutely naïve, destructive and downright impossible to control.
 
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I hear what you're saying, Phuel.


For me, a memorable example of insensitive 'inspiration' was the canceled Rodarte/MAC collaboration inspired by the mass killing of young women in Mexico. How murders inspire makeup, I'm not quite sure.


Now MAC is famous for its benefit collections ... it would have been a completely different thing if the collection had been raising funds to help end the murders. Instead, it was the perfect example of utterly tone-deaf 'creativity.'


I believe that one of the things we are held responsible for is how we make other people feel. I just don't believe that creativity or creative freedom trumps offense. And I have certainly seen things on the runway I thought were offensive. Based on that, I can more than understand how a designer version of something viewed as sacred by some could offend.


I'm not sure why, with a universe full of creative options, someone would need to create something that enrages people already ground under society's heel.


It's quite true that we have to work hard for our own success, but I think it's also important to make a contribution toward improving the system or society in some way for others. I'm sure that a tipping point is coming, just as it did in South Africa. I hope it comes sooner rather than later.


That Rodarte/MAC mess sounds like it was concocted by racist-chauvanists... Simply no words. And to be frank, there are some really unintelligent people working in this industry with prominent positions...

Someone had posted in the MET Gala thread how beautiful the women and the costumes they wore in the film The Flowers of War were and how amazing it would be to see these costumes on the red carpet. But it's a film about a group of people fighting to survive and flee the Japanese occupation of Shanghai... My grandmother lived through that occupation and although she died when I was just a baby, my mother would tell me the horrors my grandmother witnessed and experienced of that time, and I see how inappropriate it is for me to see the beauty of the costumes and the women of the film. One of the stories my mother told me was particularly heartbreaking and still disturbs me to this day: My grandmother was from a wealthy family and the last generation of girls of which footbinding was still practiced. But thank God my great grandparents were modern and thought the practice barbaric, so my grandmother was spared from this mutilation. During a time when they fled Shanghai, my grandmother saw girls and women, some of her friends, had to crawl on the ground because their mutilated feet, which was the highest status symbol of wealth, beauty and femininity, suddenly turned them into individuals that were less physically capable then the beggars on the streets. So, that's what I think of when I see the costumes of The Flowers of War. But, I can understand how someone would only see the beauty of the fashion, and that alright. Maybe that initial attraction to the beauty of the fashion would lead them to learn more about the times.

That's the price for freedom though--or more specifically in this discussion: Creative freedom. There are always those that will abuse it and do more harm, or use it in a thoughtless, purely superficial way (as in the case of Rodarte/MAC) than good. But I would prefer everyone be afforded that freedom.. You know, for every shallow, witless pillaging of a cultural heirloom by Karl and the Catenacci guys, I see something that inspires and thrills my very core by Gaultier or Dries. And just speaking once again within the context of high fashion, because it's a Pandora's Box if we wrangle in the real world, there will always be those that won't quite think it through with their cultural "inspirations". So who decides what's OK and what's not?

I definitely have my preferences when it comes to fav designers abd how they present their designs. Everybody does. But the lesser ones are still relevant-- I mean, they're all relevant really, even the ones I don't like at all. That's what I love about the fashion world, that there's a place for Karl and his cluelessness just as there is a place for a visionary like Rei.

I guess people like you and me will always disagree but I think we still try to understand one another -- that I'm glad for, instead of trying to shout over or ignore each other because we don't agree on issues. I'm glad we're able to have this discussion because I'm learning. It's always going to be a grey matter-- like dior_couture1245 pointed out-- even in high fashion, it's never black and white. And, I will always think wouldn't that be great if those that are so offended by high fashion's cultural appropriation of what they hold so sacred would only see how genuinely inspiring some designers can elevate their inspirations? (But after seeing some of the awfulness-- like the mentioned Rodarte/MAC travesty, I can see why they'd just shut us out...)
 
^ I like your example of Dries, I was thinking of him in fact ... remember his grunge collection? You really have to be told what his inspiration is, it's typically not obvious. That to me is the difference between being inspired, and ripping something off. I bet if Dries were inspired by Native Americans, they wouldn't be offended ... I would certainly not expect to see a war bonnet on his runway.


As far as the Rodarte/MAC collaboration, I'm assuming it was the designers' own inspiration. Looking at their various collaborations I do see some similarities, but nothing else they've ever done has been anything like that.


I like your Flowers of War example. I've always thought there was something misogynistic about designing shoes no one can walk in, or that are downright dangerous. But shoes you can at least take off.


I think who gets to decide is the people who are being ripped off. They get to say when they think enough is enough.


I complete agree that some of these collections (like the n-word one that was run by Kanye West, wasn't it, for approval? :rolleyes:) aren't creative at all, they're simply meant to be notorious.


I also agree that being offended is a choice (though it requires some strength to make it a choice), but that doesn't make it OK to be offensive, or mean that sometimes it's not the right thing to do to express that you're offended.
 
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