Cavalli Underwear Offends

[Alejandro]

Originally posted by Spike413+Jun 10th, 2004 - 5:39 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spike413 @ Jun 10th, 2004 - 5:39 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Alejandro@Jun 10th, 2004 - 5:03 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-Spike413

@Jun 10th, 2004 - 4:58 pm
I remember when Dolce and Gabbana had the Madonna and the blessed child printed on dresses

Maybe that's the saint I have printed on my D&G top

Is it a stretchy tulle/net fabric and have crystals on it, kind of like this..... [/b][/quote]
That's Dolce & Gabbana, mine is just plain affordable D&G There's a pic somewhere in the pics of us thread... but yes, it has a similar print on a tulle fabric sans crystals

 

[clay]

blink: This is really a hard one. I believe in respecting people and their beliefs on religion. So i would not make a religious image on underwear or certain areas of the body. Is it clever to put the baby jesus on a nipple area of a t-shirt?
Maybe it is,maybe it is insensitive to someone else. I have personally have been inside a company that put many hindu images on jeans especially on the ***. The owners of the company are hindu, but they had no problem telling someone to do it.

I believe in freedom of speech, but not to make people upset on purpose when it clear people will be offended. The crucifixion of Christ has been portrayed on album covers, to comics. I guess now we are used to that. Hindus are not
used to their images being treated any kind of way.So they speak up. Ok make your point known, but acknowledge people do have a right to express themselves and some will like it and some will not. It is personal choice for a company to treat a subject a certain way. If we could not do this the world be Orwellian or something, and we would all hate that.

Respect is key here. Do you care about others or not at all. I am sorry but in business the evil intent level is extremly high
and desrespecting someones religious values is probably low on the damage meter of what actually does happen that is so much more personally damaging to individuals and our world.

Again lets be real here, some people will get really upset and can cause you many problems or even pain if they are upset of religious issues. This is nothing new and there are some in all religions that can get extreme. The danger of that alone would make not try to fool around with religion and a commercial venture like clothing.

It just seems that people are not creative when things like using religion. They are usually very specific so there is no question, even to people that know nothing about the religion. I saw a student art film in November. This guy had made a very clever picture about a chapter of the bible, using weather and filters
and it was beautiful. He is religious guy ( My cousin actually) and may become a Pastor one day, but he is also an artist. He told me that the people that this specific chapter of the bible will see all the symbolism he has used and will be able to connect it to the chapter it is representing. I had no clue, what the heck I was looking at, except a very beautiful and interesting short art flick. If he would have put those same images on some panties, and even explained to people, I do not believe anyone would have cared.

 

[clay]

Hi SG!!

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by ahhGucci+Jun 11th, 2004 - 4:12 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ahhGucci @ Jun 11th, 2004 - 4:12 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 11th, 2004 - 6:03 am
<!--QuoteBegin-ChinaLove

@Jun 10th, 2004 - 11:42 pm

yes underwears are private, but I really don't see why putting religious print on some private fabric shows disrespect.

mocking one's dignity as a human being by wearing these? (btw, I don't wear underwears like that).
I guess I'm totally missing the point here...

You're missing the point because it's not you who's being affected. Why is it so hard for people to grasp the idea that making a mockery of religion is extremely offensive, especially to those who have an emotional attachment to it? I don't see the logic in non-religious people speaking on religious issues for which they have no knowledge.

the assumption that non-religious people have no knowledge of religion is incorrect and insulting...

i have a vast knowledge of many religions and do not believe in any of them...by wearing a garment with a photograph of a religious icon...i am not "making a mockery or religion" as you describe it... i am just wearing a piece of clothing i like...by telling me that i am not permitted to do so ..you are imposing your belief system on me...which is reverse religious persecution...

An analogy, because from what I've heard on this topic, a lot of people dont have a clue about the religion of hinduism.

I'm not american, and I know that if I wore a sept. the 11th tee, that wassn't made for rememberence, just too look cool and sort of make a little joke about it, it would offend people. But hey, I'm not american, all you americans should have a sense of humour eh? eh?

[/b][/quote]
gucci-sept.11 has nothing to do with religion...it was a murderous attack...what is the relevance?...

and i would actually defend the right of someone do or say what they like...i would express my displeasure by boycotting their product or telling the person who was doing the offensive thing my point of view...but i will defend their right to say and do it...as long as no one was getting hurt...

quote-stylegurrl-"IMO, it's very arrogant to tell someone else how to feel about an issue that affects their people or to dismiss their feelings as being unwarranted simply because they are not your own."

i agree completely ...so please stop telling me how i should feel...simply because i disagree with you...it doesn't mean i am wrong...

quote igni-" The fact you are using a sacred image to sell or for design is insulting because that image is for WORSHIP, not COMMERCIALITY. "

...says who...don't you think religions of the world sell objects with these religious icons on them...go the the sistine chapel in rome ...BIG SOUVENIR SHOP!!!...and if i don't believe in the religion...then the symbols have little or no meaning to me...please stop imposing your value system on others...

i'm a little fed up with every different religioin going around proclaiming itself...one could argue that millions of people have been killed throughout history as a result of religion...and they all claim to be the one true religion and to be better somehow than the others...it is my belief that we are all equal..and should therefore receive the same ammount of respect...no matter what we do or don't believe in....i expect my belief or lack thereof to be respected...just as i respect peoples' right to worship anything from krishna to shoes...

AND...no one addressed my issue of TOLERANCE...everyone wants their views respected...what about respecting MINE and that of people like me...what about acknowledging our right to DISBELIEF!!!...

forget the hereafter...i believe in the here and now...and i believe in humanity...mutual respect would solve a lot of issues...i find the argument against this product to be very self-serviing...

and why are people so touchy about religion???

i think clay made some good points about what it would be like if we lived in a world full of censorship...

 

[stylegurrl]

quote-stylegurrl-"IMO, it's very arrogant to tell someone else how to feel about an issue that affects their people or to dismiss their feelings as being unwarranted simply because they are not your own."

i agree completely ...so please stop telling me how i should feel...simply because i disagree with you...it doesn't mean i am wrong...

Softgrey, I did not tell you how you should feel. My point was that people are often very quick to dismiss the feelings of those who are offended without even trying to understand why they are offended (or perhaps not even caring why they are). You say that some people are 'touchy' about religion. That is a perfect example of what I mean. You may not be particularly religious but why dismiss other people as being 'touchy' because they do? Someone else could say you were 'touchy' on the topic of religion. It's like a circle. Where does it end?

it is my belief that we are all equal..and should therefore receive the same ammount of respect

I agree. Then who should be the victor in this underwear issue? The person who wants to wear it or the Hindu who doesn't want it to exist? The wearer wants to be respected and so does the Hindu-how is such a conflict resolved?

Is it going to kill anyone if they aren't allowed to wear Hindu symbols on their underwear? Will the world stop turning? There are definite freedoms and rights we should all fight for but is this one really worth it? I think people in general enjoy controversy and would rather fight for their right to offend than actually take time to put themselves in someone elses shoes.

 

[ChinaLove]

and why are people so touchy about religion???

WTF? What a strange question from someone who claims to know something about religion. Religion for some people is not a part-time act. It's their life. They prey to the Gods, they fast, they dress in apparel to honour the Gods, their lives are governed by religion. It's a form of faith and solace which is not to be debased.

People speak as if free speech/expression is absolute. It's not. It never has been. Everyone knows that free speech is restricted to a certain degree. What exactly constitutes free speech and how do we balance it against other rights and claims?

This is not an issue of tolerance. Because it doesn't appear that people are disregarding your non-religious beliefs. The offense isn't that people are saying you are wrong for not believing, but that a religion was inadvertantly disrespected. This is about respecting an ancient institution, something that most people don't have the capacity to understand. If you haven't figured it out yet, you should now. Society was formed out of religion. Where do you think the American consitution and all its rights came from? They didn't come from atheists I'll tell you that much. Even in America where religious association is declining, the whole damn government is one big religious pulpit. Sure, we have the right to speak against government, but how much of us willingly break the law or committ an offence just because we have our own set of ideas? We obey certain insitutions because we respect them and know that we have to.

 

[clay]

But this other comment "Americans should have a sense of humor". Now I can tolerate your opinion, I do not have to and no one gets hurt, we will say whats on our minds. I found in my travels after Sept 11th, that many other countries i travelled to, had a similar opinion expressed. Basically implying we as a nation are babies when it comes to national terror or tragedies or we are ignorant to the realities of life, and we should get used used to it. These people seem to forget that America regualrly challanges itself to be a better nation. This particularly made me more than ever love that fact that even though America is far, far, far from perfect, it is still trying to live up to own ideals that are stated in our Constitution. Therfore, we are still idealistic that we can continually grow and improve our lives and constantly protect the rights of our citizens and our citizens safety. Our history is just as colorful as anybody elses, but we constantly have open dialogue, we can challange laws and rules in government and society and even religion. Now with the fact terrorism has come to our shores you can bet we are going to deal with with all the vigor we have in the past when it comes trying times and need for change. There is nothing funny about that, it is just reality, and we deal with it.

And SG I see less tolerance arund the world than i see here in our country by far. What makes it worse is that people are usually held to this intolerance by religion or culture. So no dialogue can even arise, nor does anyone try to change it with fear of ( you just name ). So what about the people that religion means nothing to? Do they not have a say so here as well? Well here in America we do. I like it that way also. If I do not like something I do not have to support it. But that does not mean it does not have the right to exist.
That is tolerance, not running out and killing your neighbors, burning a train full of Muslims, ostricizing your citizens that have been raped, killing your wife cause she disobeyed you, not allowing you daughter to be educated, or the entire parliment going postal on each during a assembly.If we are babies for not not doing that sh-t, I say good for us.

GC

 

[softgrey]

i respect everyone's points of view here...it is indeed a vicious circle...i don't believe we will find the answers here...but i appreciate the healthy debate...

i thank you all for your opinions...

i still think that anyone has a right to use whatever image they choose in any way they see fit...if you don't like it...don't buy it...no one is being forced to buy or wear the stuff...i think money speaks louder than anything else in the commercial world...that would be the most effective way to squelch something like this...imo...i think pressuring a company to discontinue selling the product is just too extreme...by making the product unavailable you are taking away someone's right to wear what they like...and i think that's wrong...that's just how i feel...

call me an idealist...

 

[paprika_hiccup]

Unlike many others here, I agree with softgrey and clay, that this IS and issue of religious tolerance. First off, I believe 100% in freedom of expression.

I really have a problem with this statement, ChinaLove:

Would it be okay for a homophobe to kill a gay man because he thinks homosexuality is an abomination?

Freedom of thought and freedom of action are not to be confused. No matter how offensive one may find the beliefs of someone else, if you want to express yourself and your beliefs in a non-violent way through art, writing, etc., is your right to do so (at least here in the US for the time being ) You, as a consumer and citizen, may express your own beliefs by not buying certain products and publically expressing your reactions to the offending item(s).

I saw a construction worker the other day wearing a hot pink shirt (with the sleeves cut off,of course) stating : Silly ******- Dicks are for Chicks.

I gave this jack-*** the nastiest look I could conjur up, and I probably would have said something to him, too, if my boyfriend was not with me. He was beefy and angry looking and I didn't want him to punch my boyfriend for my comments.

Should this man be allowed to wear this shirt- of course he should. Should he be allowed to punch my boyfriend in the face? Of course not, and it would probably land him in jail for awhile.

Stylegurl wrote:

Is it going to kill anyone if they aren't allowed to wear Hindu symbols on their underwear? Will the world stop turning? There are definite freedoms and rights we should all fight for but is this one really worth it? I think people in general enjoy controversy and would rather fight for their right to offend than actually take time to put themselves in someone elses shoes.

is it going to kill anyone? No, but I, for one, do not want to live in police-mandated state. The world of Orwell's imagination does does pop up overnight, it is a slow process of having small freedoms taken away, one by one over many generations. The present population will never notice the differences and thus never know how it was "before", when what you could say/wear/write was up to YOU and not the government. As an American, I am appalled at the way the citizins of our country are collectively, and willingly, giving up certain rights since 9/11/ . The Homeland Security Bill has pretty much thrown any right to personal privacy out the window, and no one really cares. Freedom of expression has become shaky ground as well, when a legal citizen can be charged as an "enemy combatant" and be suddenly looked at as non-citizen in the eyes of the law. Non-citizens who do not have the right to a lawyer, and do not have the right to a fair and speedy trail, etc. Stylegurl, you may want to be told what to do by the "state", and it seems like you are in the majority at least in the US. IMO it is truly sad, but again that is your perogative.


Religious tolerence is a very sticky topic. It deals with tolerence related to other religions, but does NOT allow for tolerence of non-religious or atiest views. The earlist tracts discussing religious tolerence show that religious tolerence is just that- "religious", not allowing for non-religious points of view. I think is is very much the same today, and I think many of the comments directed toward softgrey are good examples of it.

Finally . . . I think appropriating the symbols of another culture/religion/political or social group in order to make your designs interesting or "edgy" is cheap and lame. Not something that I would support, but I do support their right to exist in the world and be sold to those that do support it.

THE END.

 

[Plumour]

for both softgrey and paprika_hiccup

 

[softgrey]

i just want to re-iterate this statement...

quote-paprika hiccup...The world of Orwell's imagination does does pop up overnight, it is a slow process of having small freedoms taken away, one by one over many generations.

it wasn't so long ago that women and people of colour could not even vote in this country ...and in many countries around the world women have little or no rights......many people fought long and hard for our freedom...and i for one am not so willing to give it up...many people who have grown up with these privileges just take them for granted and assume they will always be there...well they won't ...not if we keep giving up small freedoms everyday...

it's called freedom of expression which is just as important as freedom of religion ...it's a beautiful thing...

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:26 pm
it's called freedom of expression which is just as important as freedom of religion ...it's a beautiful thing...

Freedom of expression's just great as long as you're not offending anyone.
That's part of our rights as well...

 

[paprika_hiccup]

Something in life is going to offend someone, somewhere.

If the freedom to express your views is to be contained by not offending anyone, anywhere, than its not really freedom at all.

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by ChinaLove@Jun 11th, 2004 - 11:19 am
Even in America where religious association is declining, the whole damn government is one big religious pulpit.

frightening ...isn't it...

it makes me shiver...

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by paprika_hiccup@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:48 pm


Something in life is going to offend someone, somewhere.

If the freedom to express your views is to be contained by not offending anyone, anywhere, than its not really freedom at all.

There do need to be set limits though. rder:
Religion and cultural beliefs, for one...

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by purplelucrezia+Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:36 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (purplelucrezia @ Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:36 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:26 pm
it's called freedom of expression which is just as important as freedom of religion ...it's a beautiful thing...

Freedom of expression's just great as long as you're not offending anyone.
That's part of our rights as well... [/b][/quote]
think about that statement...purple...paprika hiccup is right...what you describe is not freedom at all...

many many many religious beliefs offend me tremendously...TREMENDOUSLY!!!...does that mean the people who hold those beliefs should not be allowed to practice their religion?...

it works both ways purple...you can't expect respect and tolerance without being willing to give it...that's is what i meant earlier by self-serving...


btw---i put a song for you in the today's lyrics thread...(spirituality does not have to be associated with organized religion...there is hope yet for mankind... )

 

[pointup]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:26 pm
i just want to re-iterate this statement...

quote-paprika hiccup...The world of Orwell's imagination does does pop up overnight, it is a slow process of having small freedoms taken away, one by one over many generations.

it wasn't so long ago that women and people of colour could not even vote in this country ...and in many countries around the world women have little or no rights......many people fought long and hard for our freedom...and i for one am not so willing to give it up...many people who have grown up with these privileges just take them for granted and assume they will always be there...well they won't ...not if we keep giving up small freedoms everyday...

it's called freedom of expression which is just as important as freedom of religion ...it's a beautiful thing...

I was all for not using religious symbols until I started to realize this..... FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION... lovely thing, isn't it? I must say if we start giving up rights we are going to be in trouble.. I recently read 1984 and let me say I'm never going to London if it's been like that for 20 years...... I really can't say I want Orwell to turn in to the next Nostradamus though... So I'm off to screen print Moses on to a trucker hat

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by softgrey+Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:59 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:59 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by purplelucrezia@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:36 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey

@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:26 pm
it's called freedom of expression which is just as important as freedom of religion ...it's a beautiful thing...

Freedom of expression's just great as long as you're not offending anyone.
That's part of our rights as well...

think about that statement...purple...paprika hiccup is right...what you describe is not freedom at all...

many many many religious beliefs offend me tremendously...TREMENDOUSLY!!!...does that mean the people who hold those beliefs should not be allowed to practice their religion?...

it works both ways purple...you can't expect respect and tolerance without being willing to give it...that's is what i meant earlier by self-serving...


btw---i put a song for you in the today's lyrics thread...(spirituality does not have to be associated with organized religion...there is hope yet for mankind... ) [/b][/quote]
I guess it's just more of a personal thing then. I know that I like to be extra careful so as to not hurt anyone in what I do. If that means not wearing a certain t-shirt, it's really not the end of the world. I'd rather give up some of my personal desires than risk offending someone's faith. At the same time, I understand that people should be allowed to wear what they want.
And thanks for the song, by the way.

 

[paprika_hiccup]

Originally posted by purplelucrezia+Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:55 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (purplelucrezia @ Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:55 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-paprika_hiccup@Jun 11th, 2004 - 1:48 pm


Something in life is going to offend someone, somewhere.

If the freedom to express your views is to be contained by not offending anyone, anywhere, than its not really freedom at all.

There do need to be set limits though. rder:
Religion and cultural beliefs, for one... [/b][/quote]
Please let me know who is going to set these limits?

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Originally posted by tangerine@Jun 10th, 2004 - 5:07 pm
Prince said to the baker give me a bun
The baker said, 'Man, do you want any jam puttin' on?'
Prince said, 'You can do want you want
But don't put any of that jam on my darned bun'
The baker said what do I do with the jam, son?
Prince said, spread it on Highway 61...

Why do people worship symbols, anyway?