Chinese Styles

[Avantster]

Great Elizabeth Lau pics susie, I like how the oriental influences are subtle while still retaining an undeniably modern look. You have any pictures of the accessories she designed for Shanghai Tang? Let us know if you're wearing any of her items in the What are you wearing today thread!
And oh it's similar in Sydney - almost every single chinese woman (c-lai) I see owns something with an LV monogram...

Pinky* some really interesting points I would love to see how the fashion of each China province develops differently in say 15-20 years.. Definitely agree with you on the US comparison. Dare I say China's style could develop to be even more aggressive and arrogant than the US. Perhaps it could become to similar to what HK is like..?

 

[Pinky*]

Avanster - you made me really think but my thoughts kind of went in circles.. the US is more of a melting pot than china, wheras china's subgroups of people (generally) originate internally, and cultures differ substantially simply from geographical distribution rather than from immigration or colonization. Also whatever colonization they had spanned over thousands of years, a sure way to make any flavor blander. does this mean they have less styles to draw upon than the US, or are stronger because they have a more common 'basic style'?

and also because china is still slack about social security nets, the gap between poor and rich is getting even more extreme by the day.. this can play a factor fashionwise.. Its a bit of a leap but for e.g. how can designers draw inspiration from 'ghetto style' when its really 'poverty style'? and because they are impoverished, will any kind of fashion be accessible to them in the future? will the isolation from the fashion world be beneficial to develop ones own style?

In some ways HK and china are similar in the way they are quick to identify with luxury labels and somewhat in their susceptibility to marketing. Right now I think China influences HK more than the other way around considering that many big name magazines are owned in the mainland than in the HKSAR(Vogue, Marie Claire, etc). and China is really keen on finally shifting focus away from HK to themselves.

As for HK, she is so far 'advanced' that its actually hurt themselves.. even more than the US in some ways as HK's marketing has reached an almost god-like point. Even the gov't finds that the best ways to influence citizens is by TV commercials.its like a very happy orwellian 1984.. a magazine will feature the next 'it' item and no matter what it is, everyone will almost mindlessly wear it.. same with the music, celebrities.. all decided by one person. So I have more hope for China just because of her sheer size, it'll be harder for just a few moguls to dominate the industry. As well, we have to remember HK was still a colony of the british until 1997, so for the past century shes been used to having people dictate what to do when china has always been stubborn in her ways.. (more willing to learn and accept now however)

In the near future, I don't think China will be more arrogant and agressive in her fashoin sense as currently, she really relies on approval from the western world and her success is dependant upon it.. derek lam's approach might just be the right way to go for now, inspiration from the west but putting a twist on it. But still, very hard to say what it will be like in the next 10-20 years.. China is a good inventor but what boggles my mind is how shes going to get past her current kitschiness.. I know dubai and moscow are beginning to succeed.. but how did they do it?

 

[QuirkyCool]

Pinky,do you think that the obedient,herd-like quality you describe may still be a remnant of the still-recent Maoist days;that the populations is just used to the fact that there is a "correct and desirable" way to be,and they follow?

In that case,as the country grows more used to personal freedom and choice;freedom to choose what they like,what they value,and the freedom to express themselves as individuals,this kind of situation should diminish quite rapidly.

 

[susie_bubble]

^I don't think the mass obedience tendancies of China has much to do with the past Maoist regimes. It sounds really bad, but it seems as though there's this need to constantly prove themselves against others financially because of this new found wealth. As Pinky said, the gap between poor and rich is wider and wider and so financial status seems to define identities and what goes with that is this obsession with luxury brands.

 

[maverick]

^I don't think the mass obedience tendancies of China has much to do with the past Maoist regimes. It sounds really bad, but it seems as though there's this need to constantly prove themselves against others financially because of this new found wealth. As Pinky said, the gap between poor and rich is wider and wider and so financial status seems to define identities and what goes with that is this obsession with luxury brands.

"Luxe attack for China?"

 

[Lena]

"Luxe attack for China?"

thanks for bringing this up

 

[Pinky*]

Pinky,do you think that the obedient,herd-like quality you describe may still be a remnant of the still-recent Maoist days;that the populations is just used to the fact that there is a "correct and desirable" way to be,and they follow?

In that case,as the country grows more used to personal freedom and choice;freedom to choose what they like,what they value,and the freedom to express themselves as individuals,this kind of situation should diminish quite rapidly.

for HK, no, as the maoist takeover was in 1949 and HK was still under british rule.. hk still doesn't identify and disagrees with china.. in fact she id's more with her british colonial rulers and the japanese from their invasion..

For china, what you said most certainly plays a part. however, confucian teachings and bhuddism need to be taken into account as well.. the lifestyle of equality, deference to superiors, morality (less of equality now however) contributes to the herd-like quality you mentioned which as well is a factor in why communism was so "successful" in china. If it were simply political freedom, i'm sure the problem would diminish with ease. but its embedded in their cores. essentially she'd have to change who she is.. and 1.4 billion people! they can be united because of these similar values, and if that were to change, it would be very hard to manage such a large group without 'herding'..

Also, China has a -ton- of foreign trained and raised citizens who will be returning to rake in the $$.. they can help china move away from tradition and become a fashion power, but not without a price. these returning expats bring with them western ideals, and could compromise china's 'true style'. she has a big risk of falling into the trap of emulating..

since we brought up confucianism and bhuddist lifestyle, which conflicts with some fashion ideas because of the way these teachings look down on vanity.. essentially she will have to change her values to become a fashion power, and once she is successful, is there a way to being these values back and not lose her identity? sometimes i think china needs to look more to their rather illustrious ancient history than to what is considered modern. chinese poetry, painting, calligraphy etc are based on these confucianist and bhuddist values of nature and harmony.. in chinese brush painting they teach you to look at a tree or mountain as a person, "the stooping tree that fights against the wind on the precipice of a foggy mountain, is like an old man looking at the face of youth with hope in his eyes". I'd hate to see china lose this kind of confucian value because it would be wonderful if fashion resulted from this kind of thinking..

China has a lot of very serious obstacles to overcome not just in the name of fashion.. either an identity or culture will be at stake, have two conflicting value systems at once, or remain somewhat as a pariah to the western world..

but just the fact we can discuss this means there is hope for china.. even though we shouldn't be too optimistic. Some tough people are going to be needed to be the martyrs subject to intense criticism..

 

[QuirkyCool]

Thank you Pinky...very interesting thoughts and discussion indeed .

And sorry I somehow missed that your original statement applied to HK..of course I know that it was under British rule.(have been there too LOL).I was thinking of mainland China.

 

[Lena]

thanks for the interesting points posted Pinky

 

[Avantster]

Yes Pinky* that is something I've been thinking about - foreign trained young professionals (with often strong western ideals) will likely be the ones that can best 'lead' China in this area but can this happen without compromising it's real identity or culture? And can this really relate to the everyday person particularly because of the wide income disparity?

I would absolutely love to see Confucianist and Buddhist values and aesthetics influencing Chinese fashion and I think it could be done, but would require talented and perhaps strongly influential individuals - just like the way Zen aesthetics were brought out in Japanese fashion in the 80s (R.Kawakubo, Y.Yamamoto, I.Miyake). I think this can happen after fashion reaches saturation in China - but whether that's possible is debatable and more suited to the other thread. What I'm saying is that I think China has to go through this 'kitsch' phase before anything can really develop.

 

[milkfresh]

Very interesting discussion here.. Like China's architectural scene, I think their fashion scene has to undergo some sort of internal strife and reconciliation with the way they have been 'orientalised' by the West in order to gain foot in the international stage. In other words, they NEED to face the fact that these 'kitschy' parts are what the Weat really appreciates about them and sort of find a way to seamlessly merge it into their own modernism. Mao-fascination and what not will never end as long as the West exists, and I think at the very least, marketing the Maosit attitude is more to milk the cash cow than to embrace their cultural and historical epoch.

Having said that, I'd like to praise the good work of all the vast amt of pictures contributed!! I love especially susie_bubble's cousin, Elizabeth Lau's cheongsams, the white one with little red flowers!!

My contribution, all images from Wong Kar Wai's In the Mood For Love:

 

[Pinky*]

Avantster -

you're right, its much like a teenybopper growing into her own style, isn't it? possibly they would start out in the Hanae Mori road, east-west style with a touch of novelty and glamour.. shanghai tang is actually comparable to this..so perhaps they're on the right track (I still say yuck though). then after ST is done they can move over and make way for the real talents.. idealistically, this would be the situation.

however, there are more approaches.. the 2nd generation derek lam or expat way? which will dominate?..but again, too many subcultures and schools of thought in china to be sure.. she also has too many differences with japan to sail so smoothly into fashion. (japan's size difference, demilitarization, more innovative history than inventive..)

sorry to repeat, but china really needs distill an aspect of their style that is really marketable to the west in order to break into the scene like japan.. In fact, if only they'd collaborate, there could be some really stunning results fashionwise and economically.. but thats just because they're so different and yet the same.. china cooperating with japan you say? i'm really getting ahead of myself aren't i..

the bigger urban centres certainly need the kitsch phase.. the rest of china can look to these "beijing-ly hills" or "shanghai-mi's".. so really all they need to do is find these few distinct styles somehow.. after all, thats how the US solved their size problem in fashion..

 

[Pinky*]

you're right milkfresh! I was going to compare the german|japan model but I thought it would be too OT..

on internal strife and resolution resulting in design.. heres a very basic breakdown of an article I read regarding this..

germany|japan, hitler's regime|sino-japanese war, severe war reparations|atomic bomb = focusing internally= looking for other ways to rebuild = uniting force = design powerhouses

 

[Dezzydez]

Hello

My first post on this site. Thought I would make a few observations as I travel between the UK and Far East quite a bit. It will probably repeat what has been said by many of you before but anyway…

A forum member from China bemoaned the lack of China labels/designers on the international fashion circuit. Its still early days! Mainland Chinese have really embraced the whole fashion scene and many are studying fashion abroad now, so it will only be a matter of time for mainland Chinese designers start making their presence felt internationally.

Also, these students will have been exposed to overseas style and attitude and will bring it back to China, which will in turn start the move away form the whole "Luxury Label" syndrome as they will influence consumers to become more "educated" about their labels. However this is going to be quite a long process as the country is so large and each region has its own particular shopping/lifestyle habits.

As for the question of a "Chinese style". From what I can observe, the whole scene in China is still in flux, there is a real mix in style, some do the oriental thing, others go for the advant garde, its still a very young scene finding out about itself. I am sure that a "Chinese" style/design ethos will emerge and as someone said, it will take time and trialling to distil and develop this movement. China has a long history, different traditions and philosophies that can inspire for years to come.

The only thing that surprises me is the lack of international Hong Kong designers. I know there are lots of HK Chinese working in international fashion houses, but not really an individual. Vivienne Tam and Johanna Ho are the only names that really spring to mind.

Shanghai Tang has so much potential to be a leading fashion/lifestyle brand, but for some unknown reason it just doesn't seem to want to go there! They have the financial backing to be really big, but keep churning out really tacky pieces. Their creative director should be sacked!

Thanks for reading!

 

[bikkle]

Very keen observations. I agree - it's early days still.

The lack of HK, or any other Asian regions that are more sophisticated, such as TW or SG, is due to their lack of reference points. The designers do not really acknowledge their identities and usually follow the leads of others who have succeeded i.e. mainly European labels, and now, Japanese designers.

I see a large number of Chinese kids with loads of money to spend and they're buying A LOT. I don't like their sense of style, as it's a mish-mash of brands worn without really understanding the ethos of the brands. But I think their amazing consuming power will make some interesting things happen soon in the industry...

Look at the new Kaos ad for Japan for their Ascience line (hair products). They used a Chinese model (Zhang Ziyi) and some Caucasian models looking on in envy. This will NEVER appear in a Japanese ad and will be unheard of, perhaps, even 2-3 years ago.

 

[Karl.Popper]

Emi Wada did fantastic costumes for The House of Flying Daggers and Hero. Martial, deeply Chinese, with all the romanticism the Spring and Autumn Period evokes.

 

[Karl.Popper]

Germany has design powerhouses?

The French and Belgians are stark counterexamples to the comparison you draw. Neither were forced into reparations, yet are assuredly on the fashion map. It's a far-fetched hypothetical really.

 

[Karl.Popper]

One wonders why it should be of such pressing concern that China 'break' into a fashion scene that is so deeply Eurocentric. Maybe they'll never make it. Who knows. The Americans have a culture more innovative than many, but they are horrible at fashion. New York fashion week shouldn't even be on the radar, relatively speaking.

So it's not a big deal. It could be that what we regard as aesthetically pleasing in fashion is just a legacy of European soft-power that remains long after the colonials have left: just as English happens to be the global lingua franca now, even though the British Empire is no more (this is the same reason why Taiwan, that sad, compliant colonial outpost of Japan's, so looks up to Japanese 'style' today). Yet no one's saying that 'the Chinese language should be more like English, let's find ways to Anglicize Chinese so as to make it more palatable to English speakers'. It's a point-missing exercise.

If and when Chinese designers find themselves palatable to the fashion cognoscenti, it will either be because: a. they have thoroughly Euro-cized their aesthetic, or b. Chinese enculturation has converted much of the world to adopting a Sinicized view of what counts as 'beautiful' in fashion. As it is the West still has a pretty ******** ersatz orientalism as the benchmark.

 

[Dezzydez]

Bikkle - agree with you about the whole reference point thing with HK/SG/TW designers. I noticed that they really hate anything oriental and strive to be as western and cutting edge as possible, not really producing anything infuenced by their own "scene" or environment, instead they follow/copy instead of innovating and doing their own thing.

Its like you say, lots of labels and "looks" but no scene or understanding? Thats what I love about London, you have lots of subcultures and a street scene that are constantly evolving, people are throwing looks together without having to refer to a magazine..

Mr Popper, you are spot on about how China will be accepted into the international fashion scene, I hope it will develop its own unique style and be accepted for what it is..

 

[Pinky*]

Germany has design powerhouses?

The French and Belgians are stark counterexamples to the comparison you draw. Neither were forced into reparations, yet are assuredly on the fashion map. It's a far-fetched hypothetical really.

why not? germany and japan are indeed design centres only germany is not on the fashion map like japan. Take a look at any design magazine.. be it graphic arts, furniture design.. you will see germans are on the forefront as well. Certainly, its a hypothetical, but it does has truth to it considering the fact both were relatively new countries in their respective areas rather than say, the french.

I don't quite understand why it seems you think its not important for china to contribute more to the fashion world in the future. isn't that a very eurocentric belief in itself? There shouldn't be only one aesthetic. Yes, we did say that the easiest point of entry would be to make it more palatable to the west, and maybe they will be horrible imitators. But as you can see mentioned, china will be so dominant in the future. why should they not contribute as well? In comparing it to NY fashion week, it seems you are implying that chinese fashion will result terribly.. do you disagree with me in saying confucian and bhuddist ideology can result in a beautiful fashion just like what zen aesthetic did for the japanese?

Its important to remember that english didn't necesssarily need to be the global language until the creation of computer coding. In the past, colonial empires adopted tidbits of english simply to deal with their political entities. As well, a latin pronounciation key was created to better understand the chinese language, and would you not say that it has worked in drawing westerners in and making barriers diminish? So, again, I don't understand your argument in why appealing to europeans is not effective, nor do I think its because of the past colonial empires that results in a generalized 'appealing' aesthetic.

Taiwan does not look to japanese style for influence simply because of their short colonial history with them. Many in east asia look to them because they are the first asian leaders in fashion. especially in the case of taiwan, formosa, the one who was colonized by practically everyone possible.. of course they are going to identify more with their asian suppressors (who also share their dislike for the chinese) than western ones. and the fact is, taiwan will never let herself be influenced by china, you're forgetting why taiwan was created in the first place.

dezzydez - I urge you to read some of the past posts before saying stuff like "they hate anything oriental". are you familiar with HK/TW/CH/JP's scene..? why would they hate their own culture?