Chinese Styles | Page 7 | the Fashion Spot

Chinese Styles

Ok, rephrase that, many really hate the oriental style/influence in fashion. They think its old fashion and fuddy duddy. My wife wore a cheong sam to work in HK and everyone thought she was a wierdo. She looked gorgeous! It was bespoke in black cashmere wool with fushia piping and lining.

I am familiar with HK SG and also meet many Taiwanese, I mix with many locals and my views have been influenced by talking to them..
 
you're saying many orientals hate oriental fashion.. many people hate yohji yamamoto and issey miyake..? can you expand on that..?

well of course.. in hk its not normal to wear cheongsam around like it is in japan for girls to wear the yukata for festivals no matter how good you look.. would you walk around dressed as a shakespearean bard in london..? its a little silly unfortunately although it would be fun if it were acceptable, like say, india..

just saying..talking to people doesn't make any of our opinions more valid.. just bc its old fashioned doesn't mean they hate it. could have been that its the new 'interpretations' a la shanghai tang that displeases them..
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Wearing a Cheong sam is hardly like wearing a yukata. We are not talking old fashion full length silk version, Its was like a LBD, very work and business like. To me it was beautiful end of, whether it was east or west style.

OK, get your point about the Japanese thing, lets repharse again and say that I have only met a handful of chinese people in HK, SG, and TW who appreciate chinese style in fashion. They seem scared to experiment with the style as consumers, stylists and designers. I am only labouring this point becauseI asked why HK designers don't seem to have made an international impact, someone said lack of refernece points and i made the comment that lots of local HK chinese don't touch the chinese heritage thing as a source of inspiration. Yet they do love the whole Japanese thing. - Wierd.

Anyway, I am chinese btw, so not chinese-bashing honest! :flower:
 
I was talking about design powerhouses _in fashion_. It is far-fetched because countries like France and Belgium (or if expanding the argument into _all_ design, as do the Swiss, the English blah blah) just do as well, if not better, without having been forced into reparations in the recent past. In short, your hypothetical shows nothing. It is a post hoc hypothesis invented to fit the facts.

". . . china will be so dominant in the future. why should they not contribute as well? In comparing it to NY fashion week, it seems you are implying that chinese fashion will result terribly"

That's not what I'm implying. And you just missed the point. What I am implying is that America, for all its economic, military and even cultural dominance, does not contribute very much to fashion for some reason or another. So there is no 'ought' or 'should' here. I don't think America 'should' contribute more just because it is the dominant state in the world today. In fact I think the opposite: contribute less from the likes of J.Lo. The point is this. If it is good it is good, there are no means to engineer creative genius, and you are mistaken if you think otherwise.

"do you disagree with me in saying confucian and bhuddist ideology can result in a beautiful fashion just like what zen aesthetic did for the japanese?"

"Buddhist". No, I agree that it can. But that's only because the relevant Japanese designers have so thoroughly absorbed the Western (and here I mean European) vernacular in the first place, and also because Zen and Buddhism are ALREADY concepts familiar to the West. Yohji shows in Paris, not Yokohama. He creates using the idioms of Western dress primarily, not Japanese traditional dress.

"Its important to remember that english didn't necesssarily need to be the global language until the creation of computer coding."

Nonsense. The British empire created an English speaking literati in two of the most populous countries in the world - India and China. That, along with the fact that the British Commonwealth happens to be the largest post-colonial entity of its kind, leaves a large part of the world highly receptive to learning English, the language of commerce - indeed the language of the greatest commercial empire the world has ever known.

"I don't understand your argument in why appealing to europeans is not effective, nor do I think its because of the past colonial empires that results in a generalized 'appealing' aesthetic."

I did not say it is not effective. I said it will only be effective when Chinese enculturation occurs, or if the designer is sufficiently versed in the ways of his intended (European) audience, whichever occurs first.

And of course what counts as an appealing aesthetic is cultural. And colonialism necessarily results in the imposition of culture. Colonialism resulted in mass European enculturation, that means that their aesthetic is THE aesthetic accepted by the rest of the world. Even the Japanese were subjugated. They all wear European dress don't they. And this subjugation goes back to at least the Meiji Restoration. The Turks had the same experience after the humiliation of the Ottoman empire.

"Taiwan does not look to japanese style for influence simply because of their short colonial history with them. Many in east asia look to them because they are the first asian leaders in fashion. especially in the case of taiwan, formosa, the one who was colonized by practically everyone possible.. of course they are going to identify more with their asian suppressors (who also share their dislike for the chinese) than western ones. and the fact is, taiwan will never let herself be influenced by china, you're forgetting why taiwan was created in the first place."

Rubbish. No one has 'forgotten' why Taiwan was created in the first place. If anything, you show a naive understanding of the Taiwanese mindset by overstating political dislike for mainland China as a reason for their embrace of an alternate cultural heritage. That is like cutting off one's nose to spite the face. You don't see the Taiwanese refusing to celebrate Chinese New Year now do you? Whyfore Taiwanese tourists and businessman flocking to mainland in droves? No. You overstate things. It's not a matter of dislike but rather a legacy of soft-culture influence that has influenced the former colonies in the ways that they have been influenced. All the East Asian countries have been, at one time or another, under the yoke of the Japanese imperial boot. South Korea banned imports of popular Japanese culture until recently precisely because it wanted to rid itself of all relics of its colonial past. And you wonder why China, having been carved up by the Six Powers, shows such a melange of influences in its national psyche.

The point remains. A lot of orientalism is kitsch, and kitsch won't be high fashion until the designer Euro-cizes his aesthetic, or until Chinese enculturation of the rest of the world occurs. Buddhism and Zen, which the west is ALREADY familiar with, are legit influences to employ. Traditional dynastic garb, which the west is NOT familiar with, will simply go over their heads for the precise reasons I enumerated.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Another more or less related point. A lot in fashion has to do with the avoidance of negative connotations. The big problem with Oriental kitsch is that even if you wear something non-kitsch and authentically Chinese, these negative connotations still arise by association, unavoidably. I think 'Fu Manchu' or 'Chinaman'.

The cultural context is such that you can't safely wear overtly ethnic dress without a prejudiced reaction. And that has a lot to do with 'cultural context'. People in high fashion can't tell kitsch and non-kitsch apart. It's all the same to them. There's no incentive to be better schooled in the subtleties of Chinese dress.

But we can tell the difference between a Dior Homme coat and some teenage goth get-up. Why? Because we are more handy and familiar with these tropes in western culture, that's all. The reverse situation is not even close to obtaining.
 
In short, your hypothetical shows nothing. It is a post hoc hypothesis invented to fit the facts.
I didn't make it up if thats what you're trying to imply, but I was simply trying to elaborate on milkfresh's statements on internal strife and resolution. Of course your examples are valid as well, but I felt it would be more relevant to give an example of an asian country vs european one.
So there is no 'ought' or 'should' here. I don't think America 'should' contribute more just because it is the dominant state in the world today. In fact I think the opposite: contribute less from the likes of J.Lo. The point is this. If it is good it is good, there are no means to engineer creative genius, and you are mistaken if you think otherwise.
Of course, the US should not contribute simply because they are dominant. but they are considered a western aesthetic as well, and China being the next rising power whose potential aesthetic has not yet been explored, why 'should' they not contribute? I agree you cannot engineer creative genius but certainly there are ways to coax them out.. so do you feel there are ways for china, on her part, to nurture the future of her style.. or in your opinion they're doomed because the world market can only value oriental kitsch?
"Buddhist".
I really can't believe you tried to correct me on bhuddist spelling.. It is spelled both ways even in the canada tibet committee (tibet.ca) and what matters is the ideology I was trying to convey.. not your pettiness for the sake of argument.. but I see and respect your point about the japanese aesthetic being more easily relatable to the west.
Nonsense. The British empire created an English speaking literati in two of the most populous countries in the world - India and China. That, along with the fact that the British Commonwealth happens to be the largest post-colonial entity of its kind, leaves a large part of the world highly receptive to learning English, the language of commerce - indeed the language of the greatest commercial empire the world has ever known.
Yes, receptive but not meaning needed. Priviliged few knew english - in the case of China, they were major merchant groups and political translators. English didn't require to be a language even a commoner would know until the pc revolution and I think that had greater influence in making the western aesthetic more palatable and accessible to the greater population.
"...nor do I think its because of the past colonial empires that results in a generalized 'appealing' aesthetic."

...Colonialism resulted in mass European enculturation, that means that their aesthetic is THE aesthetic accepted by the rest of the world. Even the Japanese were subjugated. They all wear European dress don't they...
I see your argument but this only explains why western fashion is more relatable to japan rather than appealing. Just because you are forced into a uniform doesn't mean you will grow to like it. I think appeal has more to do with the europeans longer expertise in the fashion industry, marketing, and dominant accessibility - not just because the japanese were forced into western dress..
Rubbish...If anything, you show a naive understanding of the Taiwanese mindset by overstating political dislike for mainland China as a reason for their embrace of an alternate cultural heritage....You don't see the Taiwanese refusing to celebrate Chinese New Year now do you? Whyfore Taiwanese tourists and businessman flocking to mainland in droves? No. You overstate things. It's not a matter of dislike...
No I am not overstating Taiwanese political dislike for China, nor was it naive. In some ways the tw mindset is paradoxical because at one point or another they were chinese but yet they actively reject it. If you gave her a choice btw the chinese or japanese fashion industry, they will choose japanese. Those tourists go to China because their relics were once related to their origins, not because they want to be influenced or help boost the economy for china. As for the business men who trade goods, can you explain why many chinese products in taiwan have altered packaging that is printed in japanese and claims to be made in japan even though it has a small 'made in china' label that is strategically hidden? And they are choosing Japanese products and fashion(or at least what appears to be) partly because of political dislike but not at all because they are embracing an "alternate cultural heritage".

as for "chinese new year", it is really Lunar New Year and is observed by China, Japan, India, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand as well.. basically anywhere you see Bhuddism, so it is not just 'chinese'. So, its incorrect to state that tw is open to influence from china because of this.

anyhow, we are getting more into politics and economics than chinese style at this point, and TFS policy does not allow us to discuss politics or argue as it is considered abuse of the forum.. If you'd like to debate more about this, feel free to pm me but please don't throw other people's opinions out the window, calling it 'rubbish'. I'd much prefer an open discussion with you than fight as I find many of your constructive views interesting and beneficial to this thread:flower:
 
dezzy - Ooo, I assumed you meant full length.. sorry! if that were the case, I would have to agree with your wife's coworkers:blush: But it shows that even though it seemed appropriate, HK sadly still has a narrow definition for what items are acceptable in fashion but ironically not composition..

Its unfortunate that they cannot reinvent the kitsch but as Karl Popper said, its unavoidable and perhaps the most effective way to gain foot in the western market. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but do you think theres a way for chinese fashion, once they enter the fashion scene using kitsch, to steer into Confucianist and Bhuddist aesthetic without still seeing it negatively exoticised? Say in 10-20 years or so, can the prejudice diminish to the point where the Chinese style can be as acceptable as the Japanese Zen aesthetic? (Karl Popper?;))
 
To be honest, the short answer is that I don't see it happening in the short term. A lot depends on how quickly the Chinese assimilate Western modes of creativity, and how Chinese culture itself is retransmitted to the West in a position of strength and not as mere exotica. For the latter to happen, a lot would also depend on how China evolves as a culture, and as an East Asian power. It would also take a lot of cultured education for tastes to be refined, for the past to be rediscovered, for a non-proto-socialist aesthetic to germinate. That, I think, is at least 2 generations away.

Fifty years.
 
Mary Ma.

Chinese mark. Mary.Ma
Picitures from the Fashion Issuance of Mary.Ma at 2005.11.20: http://www.e-vogue.com.cn/fashionweek_200511/pinpaixiu.asp?id=12633

17744_big.jpg



17749_big.jpg



17750_big.jpg



17752_big.jpg



17772_big.jpg
 
these are some pictures from a HK tele series called *The Charm Beneath* I :heart: *LOVE* :heart: the costumes in this series, not a big fur fan but it all looks so pwettiful :blush: especially GiGi Lai (the main actress in the series) her costumes where the BEST :p :p :p


This is Gigi Lai
Img223639545.jpg

post-244967-1129623023.jpg

and This is Anne Heung
post-244967-1129623222.jpg

post-244967-1129606908.jpg
 
New article on Shanghai Tang.

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/051201/244/fyc62.html

Shanghai Tang: A Taste of China
By Reena Jana

China's first luxury brand hasn't had a smooth international ride. Launched in Hong Kong in 1994, Shanghai Tang opened a ritzy 12,500-square-foot New York flagship store on Madison Avenue in 1997, closed it less than two years later due to
Advertisement

sluggish sales, and quietly relocated to a smaller location in 2001. But four years after the arrival of new CEO Raphael le Masne de Chermont and Creative Director Janice Ooi, Shanghai Tang seems to be back on track.

While le Masne won't disclose figures, he says worldwide sales have grown 43% in the last year, and American sales [at boutiques in New York and Honolulu] are up 50%. Compagnie Financiere Richemont (Virt-X: CFR.VX - news) -- the Swiss luxury goods company that bought a majority stake from founder David Tang in 1998 -- has embarked on an ambitious expansion plan [see BW, 7/21/03, "Richemont in a Rut"]. In 2005, new stores opened in Zurich, Shanghai, Tokyo, and Bangkok.

Currently, two more, in Beijing and Milan, are set to open in 2006. "We expect to have 30 stores by the end of 2007," le Masne says. "Among the 10 boutiques we plan to open, I can say that four will be in China, and two will be in the U. S. -- starting in Las Vegas, and then either San Francisco or Los Angeles."

LUXURY BOOM.

Shanghai Tang's success is due in part to the strength of the Asian market, which is responsible for 80% of the brand's sales. Parent company Richemont's latest annual report states that overall sales in Asia [outside of Japan] grew 20%, compared to 10% in Europe, 7% in the Americas, and 3% in Japan, for the fiscal year that ended in March. [The report notes that the SARS epidemic slowed sales in 2003-04, which could have contributed to such a dramatic spike the following year.]

And a 2005 Ernst & Young analysis of luxury-goods consumption estimates that sales in China will grow 20% annually from 2005 to 2008. By 2015, Ernst & Young predicts, China will overtake the U.S. as the world's second-highest consumer of luxury goods, after Japan.

But much of the credit for Shanghai Tang's turnaround also goes to Ooi, the former Asian sales and marketing director for high-end shoemaker Stephane Kelian. To reinvigorate the brand, Ooi set out to create bold design statements that combined Chinese cultural references and sleek, contemporary clothes -- while moving beyond cliched Mao-style jackets.

CHINESE AMBASSADOR.

On a brisk November evening in the New York store, a parade of sylph-like models showcase Ooi's newest designs, which will hit stores in spring, 2006. The collection consists mainly of miniskirted versions of the qipao , a traditional Mandarin-collared dress, rendered in bright hues and emblazoned with patterns based on paintings by artists in Beijing.

"The goal is to be the ambassador of modern Chinese style," says Ooi, who's hard to distinguish from the models. Slim and statuesque at nearly six feet tall, she's as fashionably dressed as the young women wearing her designs. As the models walk silently among the fashion-show audience sipping chardonnay, Ooi shows off a binder filled with photographs of the artworks she commissioned by established Chinese contemporary artists and young art students to serve as inspiration for this collection. "I picked the topic because contemporary art embodies the tensions between old and new China," Ooi says.

"Each season, I choose a theme that the public isn't too aware of," Ooi explains. "I try to stay away from a pastiche of what Westerners think of as Chinese culture." Rather than scan fashion magazines, she does her research at art museums and reads books on period and regional histories. "There's a pedagogical aspect of Shanghai Tang," says Ooi. "People can appreciate the brand on many levels."

"SOFT POWER."

One collection focused on Chinese calligraphy, and Ooi turned traditional characters from Mandarin and Cantonese into decorative patterns. Another set of clothes was inspired by the garments and jewelry worn for centuries by ethnic tribes in China's Hunan province. For yet another collection, Ooi reinterpreted the fur-lined clothing worn by Mongolian and Tibetan nomads. And Ooi based the autumn/winter 2005 collection on the Ming and Qing dynasties, drawing heavily on imperial symbols from the 14th to early 20th centuries, like the color yellow [a royal hue] and a five-clawed dragon [an icon worn only by emperors].

"People ask me, 'Don't you find always working with a Chinese theme limiting?'" Ooi says. "But our brand isn't just about referencing a dynasty every season. My only requirement is a Chinese silhouette, and fabric associated with China."

Now that the country currently possesses what economist Joseph Nye has describes as "soft power," i.e., both economic and cultural cachet, Shanghai Tang could be tapping into newfound awareness of Chinese style. A-list celebrities such as Julia Roberts and Beyonce have been photographed wearing East-meets-West clothing emblazoned with details like Chinese opera-mask motifs by Vivienne Tam, a Cantonese-born, Hong Kong-bred designer based in New York since 1983.

NATIONAL STYLE.

But Ooi is quick to dismiss any association with trendiness. "We're not depending on zeitgeist. We're not the flavor of the month," she says.

The key for Shanghai Tang will be to follow in the tradition of established luxury labels associated with a specific national aesthetic. Labels like Armani, Gucci, Prada, Versace, and Fendi have long symbolized streamlined Italian style. Chanel embodies Parisian elegance. With its booming sales, Shanghai Tang has the chance to become the Chanel of China.
 
why are westerners' view of 'modernized' chinese clothing regulated to still the trashy suzy wong images??? sigh.
 
becuase most westerners views are plastic and simple. And to expect more would be foolish. That is just for the mainstream.
I think suzy wong is kitch, but cute.
But I'm really REALLY curious what modernized chinese is. What it looks like. I'm not too happy with what I see coming out of China. As far as image wise goes. It feels self consious and stiff to me.
Where is fun playful and just hot for the hell of it? you know???

I found this thread, and actualy tried to read a lot of it. Really interesting, but at times too wordy. But very interesting. I for one am waiting and watching. I also am curious to see how all this plays out in chinese art (not a big fan of most modern chinese artists), in the cinema(wk Wai is amazing), that is, how the 'new' China will alllow it;s self to be viewed in differnt mediums... possibly in a less formal and less controled way???? I dont know.
 
Need to clarify something, the original native clothes of the Chinese isn't the cheongsum, but the prototype wrap-over style from which the Japanese kimono and the Korean dress evolved. They call it Han Fu, "Han Clothes". The cheongsum, called QiPao, means "Manchurian Robe," is a Manchurian native-wear which the Chinese were forced to adopt along with the pigtail at the pain of losing their heads, when the Manchurians conquered China.:)

That said, I hate Shanghai Tang and all that Suzy Wong kitsch, unimaginative and utterly cliche. Now the Sun Yat Sen jacket, aka Mao suit, is far more interesting and modern, although limited in expression.

I think what is far more interesting is fabric innovation, design and textures, from brocade to hemp. After all, this is the original people who brought us silk and paper.
 
that's why one should look at shiatzy chen. although not all their cut/styles are quite 'there' yet, this is one 25 year old company that has consistently built up a solid culture of textile research and innovation in their work. due to being a taiwanese company, it remained relatively local until recently; they are planning to take on the international stage very soon, complemented by their new store image design by jaya ibrahim - the interior designer that did manhy of aman and ghm hotels incl. the new setai in miami.
 
What comes to mind when i say 'Chinese' fashion? Whats 'chic'?

Unlike the sleek Italian, chic French or preppy Americans, the Chinese 'look' stereotypically emerges as traditional and eclectic. The first thing comes to me is the luxurious silk, the Shanghai Qi Pao and the painting of china used on fabric which can be seen from Victoria Beckham's stunning dress picked from Roberto Cavilli's A/W 2005 collection.:heart:

What comes to your mind when you think of 'Chinese' chic?
 

Attachments

  • Roberto Cavalli 2005 Fall.jpg
    Roberto Cavalli 2005 Fall.jpg
    52 KB · Views: 8
  • Jessica Stam.jpg
    Jessica Stam.jpg
    42.5 KB · Views: 8
  • Marija Vujovic.jpg
    Marija Vujovic.jpg
    39.7 KB · Views: 5
  • Natasha Poly.jpg
    Natasha Poly.jpg
    49.6 KB · Views: 7
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

New Posts

Forum Statistics

Threads
215,217
Messages
15,291,607
Members
89,151
Latest member
alexisxx
Back
Top