Christian Dior Haute Couture F/W 2023.24 Paris

[avonlea002]

Also I don't get how people can sit in this thread and flat out lie that this is decent I cant !!

And why you think it's not?

 

[fenty]

And why you think it's not?

Why should I applaud her for creating ready-to-wear looks and labeling them as "Haute Couture"?

 

[LadyJunon]

Why should I applaud her for creating ready-to-wear looks and labeling them as "Haute Couture"?

Haute Couture is a series of garment construction methods not an aesthetic. Clothes can be Haute Couture, without being avant-garde and vice-versa.

 

[disco54]

This is like watching a fashion show at a senior home. Incredibly boring.

 

[CholoChic]

For sure there is an deep story near to legend behind this but t first glance it looks so cheap like white t-shirts.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

This does NOT look like ready-to-wear

View attachment 1232481

 

[fenty]

Im sorry but the Dior Atelier is wayyyy to good for them not to have some sort of initiative idea when it comes to their couture collections.

 

[tricotineacetat]

There was a time when almost every couture house offered a minimal, unstructured double-face blazer or coat.

I don't understand why it's so hard to fathom that Dior offer one now.

I'm not exactly sure it's the same kind of construction we're talking about, though.

What MGC has shown here are essentially the kind of coats and jackets Jil Sander and all the aforementioned 'stealth wealth' designers have had in their offering since forever. They are by definition the antithesis to structured tailoring, cutting on all the laborous interior construction (layered organza, horsehair, shoulderpads, etc.) for the ease and effortlessness of a blanket. You might remember Uniqlo eventually also jumped on this technique - As of a few years, they would offer outerwear made in doubleface fabric and since then, many more brands have followed up.

I'm sure at Dior it's all cashmere or vicuna, but it's not a very 'Haute Couture' façon of making jackets or outerwear - Just a look at how those jackets are draping on the model's shoulders tells me there is nothing hidden inside that any of those luxe pret-a-porter brands wouldn't have also done, except for the made-to-measure service (then again, why would you need this kind of jacket or coat to fit that closely following your body measurements if the whole point is for it to fit a bit more on the relaxed side?).

 

[Drusilla_]

I'm not exactly sure it's the same kind of construction we're talking about, though.

What MGC has shown here are essentially the kind of coats and jackets Jil Sander and all the aforementioned 'stealth wealth' designers have had in their offering since forever. They are by definition the antithesis to structured tailoring, cutting on all the laborous interior construction (layered organza, horsehair, shoulderpads, etc.) for the ease and effortlessness of a blanket. You might remember Uniqlo eventually also jumped on this technique - As of a few years, they would offer outerwear made in doubleface fabric and since then, many more brands have followed up.

I'm sure at Dior it's all cashmere or vicuna, but it's not a very 'Haute Couture' façon of making jackets or outerwear - Just a look at how those jackets are draping on the model's shoulders tells me there is nothing hidden inside that any of those luxe pret-a-porter brands wouldn't have also done, except for the made-to-measure service (then again, why would you need this kind of jacket or coat to fit that closely following your body measurements if the whole point is for it to fit a bit more on the relaxed side?).

I mean there could still be issues of length or hems etc that someone might want customised.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I'm not exactly sure it's the same kind of construction we're talking about, though.

What MGC has shown here are essentially the kind of coats and jackets Jil Sander and all the aforementioned 'stealth wealth' designers have had in their offering since forever. They are by definition the antithesis to structured tailoring, cutting on all the laborous interior construction (layered organza, horsehair, shoulderpads, etc.) for the ease and effortlessness of a blanket. You might remember Uniqlo eventually also jumped on this technique - As of a few years, they would offer outerwear made in doubleface fabric and since then, many more brands have followed up.

I'm sure at Dior it's all cashmere or vicuna, but it's not a very 'Haute Couture' façon of making jackets or outerwear - Just a look at how those jackets are draping on the model's shoulders tells me there is nothing hidden inside that any of those luxe pret-a-porter brands wouldn't have also done, except for the made-to-measure service (then again, why would you need this kind of jacket or coat to fit that closely following your body measurements if the whole point is for it to fit a bit more on the relaxed side?).

Just because two things look the same (to you) does not mean they are made the same.

 

[tricotineacetat]

Just because two things look the same (to you) does not mean they are made the same.

I mean, sure, we can debate whether or not there is a finesse there that belittles Margiela's take on such outerwear during his Hermès heydays, or any other house where a double-face cashmere or vicuna coat could cost you a little fortune, but maybe not Haute Couture prices. I'm not sure there is, or if there is, then to what dramatic end it would improve the end result.

There is no need to overtly glorify the 'all-handmade-everything' aspect of couture and sometimes a more simplified solution yields an equally good result. That pragmatic thinking was taught to me, of all people in the world, by a former premier d'atelier tailleur - And I consider it one of the most important lessons I learned.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I mean, sure, we can debate whether or not there is a finesse there that belittles Margiela's take on such outerwear during his Hermès heydays, or any other house where a double-face cashmere or vicuna coat could cost you a little fortune, but maybe not Haute Couture prices. I'm not sure there is, or if there is, then to what dramatic end it would improve the end result.

There is no need to overtly glorify the 'all-handmade-everything' aspect of couture and sometimes a more simplified solution yields an equally good result. That pragmatic thinking was taught to me, of all people in the world, by a former premier d'atelier tailleur - And I consider it one of the most important lessons I learned.

But THERE ARE techniques and methods that can be done in an atelier that cannot be done in a factory whether or not YOU can appreciate them from pictures online.

Do you truly believe she would have included such items in her couture collection if her clients were not demanding them? Ordering them? If they could not tell the difference?

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I mean, sure, we can debate whether or not there is a finesse there that belittles Margiela's take on such outerwear during his Hermès heydays, or any other house where a double-face cashmere or vicuna coat could cost you a little fortune, but maybe not Haute Couture prices. I'm not sure there is, or if there is, then to what dramatic end it would improve the end result.

There is no need to overtly glorify the 'all-handmade-everything' aspect of couture and sometimes a more simplified solution yields an equally good result. That pragmatic thinking was taught to me, of all people in the world, by a former premier d'atelier tailleur - And I consider it one of the most important lessons I learned.

I remember once handling a 1970s Givenchy couture gown made from jersey. The entire dress was was finished with hand overcast stitching. It did not have to be. They could have used a serger but they didn't because hand overcast was the best way to do it.

If you find that too impractical then unfortunately I think you have missed the whole point of couture.

 

[tricotineacetat]

But THERE ARE techniques and methods that can be done in an atelier that cannot be done in a factory whether or not YOU can appreciate them from pictures online.

Do you truly believe she would have included such items in her couture collection if her clients were not demanding them? Ordering them? If they could not tell the difference?

I don't question that certain techniques can not be industrialized but I also look at those choices from a pragmatic perspective, how they serve the end result. I appreciate when the traditional handmade method yields a unique result that speaks for itself but if by the means of technical advancements we can achieve equally good or sometimes even better ones at a fraction of labour (therewith making them appropriate as RTW designs), then I think there is no need to overly complicate it.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

I don't question that certain techniques can not be industrialized but I also look at those choices from a pragmatic perspective, how they serve the end result. I appreciate when the traditional handmade method yields a unique result that speaks for itself but if by the means of technical advancements we can achieve equally good or sometimes even better ones at a fraction of labour (therewith making them appropriate as RTW designs), then I think there is no need to overly complicate it.

But just because you don't value/are unable to perceive the difference doesn't mean it doesn't have value to others, especially to those who will actually order and wear these clothes

 

[Nimsay]

This Dior is very much like Gianfranco Ferre - who was basically erased from memory because he added nothing to the Dior design language despite making gorgeous collections.

Dior will never escape the shadow of Galliano. He was to Dior what Lagerfeld is to Chanel. John took the Dior codes and defined them in common-sense ways. Of course Dior Couture should have complex seamwork. Of Course Dior is extravagant and over the top - the foundational New Look was that. Those ideas are so apparent that this stripped back couture is not really Dior at all.

MGC will certainly be forgotten because shes added nothing to Diors code repertoire. Like Gianfranco - Maria is a tailor making what the Arnaults ask.

 

[avonlea002]

This Dior is very much like Gianfranco Ferre - who was basically erased from memory because he added nothing to the Dior design language despite making gorgeous collections.

I think it's unfair to say he has added nothing new. His Dior was architectural, garments were like sculptures or monuments. Ferre belonged to a different generation of designers. Galliano had the fortune to design for Dior at time when industry was changing rapidly. Shows became a form of self expression rather than just a display of beautiful clothes.

 

[Nimsay]

The huge painting on the wall felt quite banal. seemed to have nothing to do with the Cirrus-like froth of the collection.


This appears to be her best Couture show yet - the display of flou is masterful. The shapes are all safe but chic. About 35% of the show could be cut out because theyre old ideas or the same look in two colors. Why is it all white.


Its (Mostly) Very Dior.


The plisse bodice is gorgeous in all its permutations. The bar jacket with the floor length slit skirt is chic.


I did not like the collared caped beige floor length dress probably the worst look in the show.


That contemporary opera coat has gorgeous sleeves & is another vision.


The greige caftan with cape was another vision. The shape of the arm holes on the tweed plisse jackets is gorgeous too.


Like most of the end half of the collection could be edited out. The gowns have some gorgeous new pieces but the gowns toward the end get weaker with the finale look being one of the weakest.


I just need to her to stick to christian diors silhoutte and point of view. Overall its one of her best with lots of looks for the magazines. I forgot who Dior sponsors for RC but I hope someone wears that bar jacket with floor length slit skirt.

 

[Nimsay]

I think it's unfair to say he has added nothing new. His Dior was architectural, garments were like sculptures or monuments. Ferre belonged to a different generation of designers. Galliano had the fortune to design for Dior at time when industry was changing rapidly. Shows became a form of self expression rather than just a display of beautiful clothes.

I love Gianfranco Ferre at Dior. Does Dior even acknowledge him? I havent been to any Dior retrospectives to know.

 

[LadyJunon]

This Dior is very much like Gianfranco Ferre - who was basically erased from memory because he added nothing to the Dior design language despite making gorgeous collections.

Dior will never escape the shadow of Galliano. He was to Dior what Lagerfeld is to Chanel. John took the Dior codes and defined them in common-sense ways. Of course Dior Couture should have complex seamwork. Of Course Dior is extravagant and over the top - the foundational New Look was that. Those ideas are so apparent that this stripped back couture is not really Dior at all.

MGC will certainly be forgotten because shes added nothing to Diors code repertoire. Like Gianfranco - Maria is a tailor making what the Arnaults ask.

I think it's unfair to say he has added nothing new. His Dior was architectural, garments were like sculptures or monuments. Ferre belonged to a different generation of designers. Galliano had the fortune to design for Dior at time when industry was changing rapidly. Shows became a form of self expression rather than just a display of beautiful clothes.

That's not really her fault though. It's quite normal for longstanding fashion houses to go through a "boring period". Periods like these generally serve to allow the business to use the previous generation's tasted to grow and add branches with minimal risk to sales

For Dior, there's a 37 year gap between Yves' departure and John's arrival that is more or less seen as white noise beyond the fashion archivists and historians.

This gap was occupied by two designers: Marc Bohan and Gianfranco Ferré.

Bohan's job was to grow the house. Under his creative direction, the house expanded to introduce Miss Dior (the ancestor of Dior ready-to-wear) and Baby Dior in 1967 and Christian Dior Monsieur (the ancestor of Dior Homme/Men) in 1960. That said, lots of this structure was remodeled when Arnault acquired and took over the house.

By contrast, Ferré's job was to re-energise the house to suit the modernised business model. While his collections did well commercially, the re-energising project failed as his aesthetic, that was deeply anchored in the eighties, became irrelevant in the nineties.

Galliano's job was essentially to do what Ferré had failed to do and he succeeded.

Right now, Dior is going through its second "boring period" where it's experiencing a lot of growth with very conservative offerings and visuals. Eventually, LVMH will have to push Dior into a more radical vision to cement the house's identity for another set of generations. That plan will be most likely put into action for the house's 100th anniversary.