Fashion/sex/politics

[softgrey]

Originally posted by faust+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 3:53 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (faust @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 3:53 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 3:31 pm
the question...why do you wear the clothes you do?
what do women really want when they wear clothes?

your answer-
i think women just want to be desired, etc....

please explain what i misunderstood?...

the context was sexuality, so that was my answer. i think the question really was why do you think women dress sexy. maybe i misunderstood. [/b][/quote]
well... i definitely understood the question differently ...so that changes things depending on what the actual topic of discussion is here...

the original question seemed to me to encompass the overall question of why women choose to wear what they wear...without assuuming that they necessarily dress provcatively or conservatively...the sexy question would then be a subtext of that...

i thought the end of sex thread already addressed the dressing sexy issue and we would be opening the topic to a more broad discussion here...

sorry for the mis-understanding, but that definitely explains your answer

 

[ahhGucci]

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by ahhGucci@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:13 pm

 

[Acid]

well........wether or not a woman dresses trashy to be desired by men, or just because thats the way they like to dress, or both, it definately gives them an upper hand over other women.

men will generally speaking approach the busty blonde type of girl in short dress as they are more apparent rather than other types of women, i've seen it with my own eyes.
it also seems to be a certain type of man who will seek this type of girl too.....generally the type who seem themselves as alpha male's, and want easy sex.

i dont know wether women dress to look p*rn starish to attract men, or to make them feel good about themselves.
its like, why do some women feel the need to wear REDICULOUS amounts of make-up.....mask-like faces ....is it to make themself feel beautiful about themself......or to attract men?

 

[faust]

Originally posted by softgrey+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:07 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:07 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by faust@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 3:53 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey

@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 3:31 pm
the question...why do you wear the clothes you do?
what do women really want when they wear clothes?

your answer-
i think women just want to be desired, etc....

please explain what i misunderstood?...

the context was sexuality, so that was my answer. i think the question really was why do you think women dress sexy. maybe i misunderstood.

well... i definitely understood the question differently ...so that changes things depending on what the actual topic of discussion is here...

the original question seemed to me to encompass the overall question of why women choose to wear what they wear...without assuuming that they necessarily dress provcatively or conservatively...the sexy question would then be a subtext of that...

i thought the end of sex thread already addressed the dressing sexy issue and we would be opening the topic to a more broad discussion here...

sorry for the mis-understanding, but that definitely explains your answer [/b][/quote]
all righty then

 

[softgrey]

so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

 

[TheSoCalledPrep]

Originally posted by helena+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:22 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (helena @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:22 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-faust@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 12:04 pm

2.The answer is "Mu." Mu means that the question is out of context of a yes or no answer. I think you should reverse the scenario and point the question at women. Do they want to be viewed by the designers as sex objects? If not, then why does trash sell?
3. For me, sexy comes in two tiers. Tier one is purely sexual, I see a hot woman and I want to f88k her, it's a natural superficial impulse. I don't want anything else from her, even if she did. Tier two is the depth of sexuality, for me it entails an element of mystery and uniqness. This is a woman who stays in my head for more than a second that it takes for my gaze to travle from one hot woman to the next. It is a woman I would want to get to know, and not a belly bearing bimbo.

Faust - you are correct of course - why do women want to buy trash - maybe because they see a slick Gucci ad & think thats how to attract a partner..... I guess we aren't very far at all from our atavistic selves at the end of the day. I just wish that people could move on from the crude-ness that seems so prevail in so many areas of modern westernised life - fashion, tv, literature even. I know its all down to the old addage that 'sex sells' but a bit of intellectual ambition is a good thing surely. I am so bored with being bombarded with sexual images. [/b][/quote]
The idea of "innovation sells" started the whole "SEX" thing. Back in the 60s, etc, it was much rarer to see the sexual images and innuendo plastered all over the streets and television screens. Yes, the culture was there, but the general populace wasn't bombarded with it on the nightly news. When Andy Warhol drew genitalia, when James Bond had his girls, etc etc, it was new. It was risque, exciting.

Now, media seems to think they can continue to push the envelope. In my humble opinion, it can't be pushed any farther except to forfeit all clothing.

 

[faust]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

Exactly. See my answer #3.

Softie, you know me a little, you didn't really assume that I think that women dress solely for the purpose of attracting men?!

 

[stylegurrl]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

I agree with you 100% SG

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by faust+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:51 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (faust @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:51 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

Exactly. See my answer #3.

Softie, you know me a little, you didn't really assume that I think that women dress solely for the purpose of attracting men?! [/b][/quote]
my dear faust...that is the very reason i was surprised and confused...

and asked for clarification...i see your point now...but you can see how it came across to me initially, can't you?

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by stylegurrl+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stylegurrl @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

I agree with you 100% SG [/b][/quote]


let's hear it for independant women!!!

 

[stylegurrl]

Originally posted by softgrey+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:59 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:59 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey

@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

   

I agree with you 100% SG

let's hear it for independant women!!! [/b][/quote]
(Destiny's Child song plays in the background)

'All the honeys makin' money, throw your hands up at me'

 

[orlem]

I have a little bit of defense for John Galliano.

I don't think he was saying he views women purely as objects of sexual desire. He said he designs clothes for women that make men want to f**ck them -- meaning men are NOT in power. The clothes and the women are in power. This brings up two entirely separate points. Helena, you hit on one of them, which is that many women want to put themselves into such a position of power over men by dressing in sexy clothes. I think JG had in mind more than this though, so on to the second point. As a designer, he views clothes as art. What is the appeal of art? Painters paint pictures of nude women -- are those meant to provoke sexual thought? Do the painters view women purely as objects of sexual desire? Are the paintings of nude women only for men, or are women able to see the art in them as well?

Also -- I started thinking about Galliano's designs. Some of them are absolutely not provocative. Would it be okay if you knew he was saying his quote about these "un-sexy" designs? Is it only because you imagine that he is talking about clothes which don't cover enough skin that you find his quite offensive?

 

[banana]

Actually I think the ones who are more overtly sexual in the way they dress play harder to get even though people tend to assume otherwise. Some women just like being chased around the bar just so that they can slam the door in the guy's face at the end of the night. I've met some girls who dressed like sluts but were really prudish when it comes to sex.

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by softgrey+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:50 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (softgrey @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:50 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:48 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey

@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 2:42 pm
i am far more interested in being respected and treated as an equal...rather than an object ...
before i am a woman...i am a PERSON!!!

...why does a woman have to strip herself of her sexuality in order to be respected? men most certainly do not.

who said they did?...you're putting words in my mouth... [/b][/quote]
you make it sound that if a woman dresses a certain way that men must objectify her. and cannot respect her as an equal?

i think that a woman can assert her sexuality and still expect some egalitarianism. i'm bothered that it's perceived and accepted that a woman must disguise her charms before she can obtain respect from men.

 

[softgrey]

kirsten(aka pursenvy) said it very well...and i will quote her here...

"I'm afraid that I give the perspective of a much more mature ( read late 30s) woman!
I am pleased to see the taming of this full-on sexy look. For teenagers, the trend was particularly worrisome. Parading around a mall only half dress really sends out some signals..and it is possible that this is not exactly what the young woman is really trying to project ....
She is thinking - I look fashionable, I look trendy, I am popular.
What others see is - I'm up for sex anytime, I don't respect myself, and you needn't either.
And you can bet the boys think she is up for it!!
I would like for young women to consider what their clothes 'say' and whether that is really the message they wish to project.
More demure clothing can actually be MORE attractive, because it says 'I respect myself, and you should respect me".
Just a thought.
Kirsten "


Your clothes absolutely convey something of who you are...and as they say...you never get a second chance to make a first impression...assumptions WILL be made based on your appearance and the way you present yourself...so everyone needs to consider that when they choose what they wear...ask yourself...who am i? and who do i want the world to see?...what do I want people to know about me?...what do i have to say?...

a visual is very powerful...'a picture's worth a thousand words'...you can say a lot with your physical appearance...i hope people can think iof more to say than "i'm hot"...

personally , i find a bit of modesty and a little self depracating humour extremely attractive...people who go around shaking their 'assets' in your face are really quite boring and can be rather annoying...

 

[helena]

Just wanted to clarify what I meant in my original post. My starting point was that a particularly influential designer has stated his motivation when designing clothes for women - that being, that he wanted women to wear clothes that make men want to have sex with them. To me, he seems not to be designing clothes to cater for what women want but looking to what men want from women as his primary concern. Thats why I asked 'why do you wear the clothes you wear?' - in other words - what motivates you when you wear certain clothes? I suppose to a large extent this was a question for other women to answer.

when i wear clothes - I don't wear them to attract men or to be desired in any kind of sexual way. Quite the contrary in most cicumstances (I never wear low cut tops, short skirts or sleeveless tops to work for example). I wear nice clothes to feel good about myself firstly but I must admit that I also wear clothes to be admired by other people (not desired) - men or women. I also wear clothes to express my personality & show that i have a brain. For example I think putting an outfit together is a mental 'process' that, to certain people whose opinions I value, is instantly recognisable & I suppose recognition from those people is a 'reward' for my efforts. That is a motivation for me (albeit that motivation is sometimes sub-concious).

The sexuality/advertising etc, is a sub-text. I agree with Faust, not when he says that all women want is to be desired, but when he says that I am in the minority holding the views I hold. Lots & lots of women do just want to be 'sexy' (used in the sl*tty sense) because women on the whole crave to desired by the opposite sex. (As a side point I completely agree with Softgrey when she says that women don't want a one night stand, despite sex & the citys protestations to the contrary). The advertisers understand our base animal desires - for men to have sex & for women to want to attract men (to be their partner). I think that is the simple explanation for 'sex sells'. However we don't live in a simple world of blacks & whites - we live in a civilisation. Some men & some women analyse these things & try to consider what is right & what is wrong. Thats what I try to do. Thats what I think we should do more of.

Back to the start point thought - it is outrageous that Galliano designs womens clothes to cater for mens desires. If women want to be taken seriously then we will have to realise that dressing up like a wh*re will get us nowhere.

Mikeijames - its completely niave to think that men (particularly those with any power) see women they find sexy as their equals - well you certainly don't live in my world where they absolutely do not.

Enjoying the debate!

 

[softgrey]

thanks for clarifying helena...i think i understood your original post and i have to say that my motivation for wearing what i choose to wear is very close to yours...almost exactly the same...

so consider me as part of the one percentile i guess.. ...do you really think it's that small?...no wonder i always feel like an outsider...

you know...i can be wearing the sloppiest messiest clothes with messy hair and no make up , but i'll still get comments from men as i walk by...some may think this is a compliment, but i feel threatened by this...the number of women who are raped is astonishing...i have been fortunate enough to have escaped this horror so far...but i still have half my life ahead of me...anything could happen...so the last thing i want to do is attract more attention to myself...because then i feel more like a target or potential victim than some sort of powerful diva...if i can't run or kick in my clothes i feel way too vulnerable...that's why i don't wear manolos...they are too spindly and you can only teeter in them...an easy target...

i've worked with many actesses who have to be in the spotlight...and i can tell you that it is vital for a woman to have strong footing and be able to stride with confidence...it's hard to feel beautiful and confident when you are worrying if you are going to fall and knock out a couple of teeth or crack your skull open...or worse...emabarrass yourself on national television..

I really can say from experience that the brightest and most interesting women i have ever met have dressed beautifully , but very individually and maybe flirtatiously, but not in an overtly sexual manner...and in the circles i travel in...overt sexuality would be frowned upon...sexy is ok, but not sl*tty...there IS a difference..

 

[Christopher31]

That brings up another question to me.... i believe that there are more than 1% of women that would agree with you... but I believe most (women) that don't agree would never admit it. That they dress sexy to just attract men or for just attention and I DO believe there is a large percent who are like this.

 

[Christopher31]

oops I guess it really wasnt a question.. .maybe in my head it was. hmmm