Fashion/sex/politics

[helena]

nqth - gigantic or even bigger that gigantic!!!! I gest, of course, nqth.

 

[travolta]

They also said about two "types" of sexuality. One is about "to get a man". And women used to be (and somewhere still are) raised to "follow their men".

i think women are definately raised to follow their men. we are taught to yearn for romance and everlasting love from a very young age--to a point where we have to read books about how to "be" in a relationship with the other sex instead of just treat them as a human being. we are definately brought up with gender lines...but sex sells and so does romance. romance is the new sex.

 

[harivain]

Hello..I am new to Fashion Spot...Its great to be here...

Wow what a topic!!! fashion/sex/politics...Certainly one that caught my interest at first glance...Well let me put forth what i think of fashion vs sex first...As much as would love to deny it, fashion, is some what driven by sex...Not in all cases, but then again how many fashion designers would choose to design a decent ensemble which barely exposes a model's hands and feet...(well with the exception of Moslem outfits of course...no offence 2 the Moslems)...But i am not trying to imply that fashion is all sex...Fashion is a potrification of clothes in an attractive way...one that we pride on...one that we express ourselves through...one that is dynamic...fun...full of character...full of life...vibrant n everchanging...And on top of all one that we utilise to look our very best...Certainly being attractive is one indirect aspect everyone looks for in a potential spouse or soul-mate...And why does one look for a spouse, if not, among other reasons, SEX!!! (VOILA!!!!!clap:

Well lets see what anybody thinks of my view please take note...MY view on the topic.

OK then...Signing off....Harivaindaran (ignore my signature...this is my real name)

 

[helena]

thanks harivain - welcome to tFS. I hope you enjoy being a member.

I agree with you - its all base at the end of the day but I do like to think that sometimes we can elevate ourselves about the 'base' level of pure sexual attraction to find beauty in other less sexualised aethetics. I think some fashion does manage to do that....Fashion which has an intellectual quality to it...a concept or a theme which goes beyong blatant sexuality.

 

[harivain]

Exactly!!!As much as people view fashion to be closely linked to sex it is so bias to say that fashion is all about sex...Which is tragically pitiful...

 

[Naimah]

This is a great topic, seems I agree the most w/ softie on this one... everything I was going to say has been covered by her so I'll just ramble a bit . Honestly, I dress for the approval of my girlfriends than guys at work or even my boyfriend. So I guess if I'm dressing to impress I'd be in something that exudes 'I am put together' 'I am not trying hard to look this way' and frankly 'this is me'. I have gotten lots of compliments from guys at work and in my personal life for looking chic but not over the top. I don't think you have to dress overtly sexy to get attention... I prefer to demand attention with my actions.

 

[Estella*]

that is a very interesting topic helena and i'm glad that softgrey brought it up again! i still have to read through the whole but one thing i can already say is that what's most alarming to me...that clothing that limits women IS regarded as sexy at all. there are lots of women who defend the point that being a feminist doesn't have to mean dressing shabbily and it doesn't...but why are tight skirts that bondage your knees and shoes that you cannot walk in appear as sexy at all? because it depicts the woman as a victim. in my opininon the whole helmut newton aesthetic of strong women in heels is a male illusion. everybody screams disbelief when talking about chinese women with crippled feet etc. but we aren't so far from that...

 

[helena]

anna - I totally agree with you - this was what Chanel tried to change eighty years ago.....and we haven't moved on really what she tried to get away from. In some ways women have become more constrained by a male vision what 'we' should be. I think hollywood & the cult of celebrity is to blame partially as well as those influential designers like Galliano/Gucci who seem to want to portray women as vacant wh*re-dolls whose only purpose in life is to attract sexual encounters. Agreed on the Helmut Newton strong sexy woman - Guy Bourdin's also..... its a prima facie 'strong' image, whilst in reality its just a manipulation of woman into a male fantasy (or a cliche of such fantasy). Most men are completely intimidated by strong women who wear clothes which don't display any sense of availability or overt sexuality.

 

[cosmocat]

This is a very interesting topic, that I will have to read the whole way through. But I am glad to hear the opinions offered, they reflect what I feel, as not many people would want to discuss these ideas or even see them as issues.

 

[Lena]

anna - I totally agree with you - this was what Chanel tried to change eighty years ago.....and we haven't moved on really what she tried to get away from. In some ways women have become more constrained by a male vision what 'we' should be. I think hollywood & the cult of celebrity is to blame partially as well as those influential designers like Galliano/Gucci who seem to want to portray women as vacant wh*re-dolls whose only purpose in life is to attract sexual encounters. Agreed on the Helmut Newton strong sexy woman - Guy Bourdin's also..... its a prima facie 'strong' image, whilst in reality its just a manipulation of woman into a male fantasy (or a cliche of such fantasy). Most men are completely intimidated by strong women who wear clothes which don't display any sense of availability or overt sexuality.

ditto helena

 

[softgrey]

i think that people too often overlook the fact that there are all kinds of sex...

and that people are all turned on by different things...some prefer blondes...some like to talk...some like to cuddle...some like to be tied up...some are submissive...some get turned on by power...some by laughter...it's a big world out there...full of lot of different people...who are all different...

so the assumption that all men respond to a certain 'type' is a bit old-fashioned imo...and even insulting to men...as though they can't think clearly and are completely driven by their libido...and have no mind of their own...

makes the mens seem pretty pathetic, no?...

 

[fab_fifties_fille]

This is a fantastic topic thanks for this helena, and thanks for bringing it back up softie!

I think being aware of your sexuality and dressing in a sexually provocative way are totally different things, in my opinion alot of these 'bimbo types' we talk about here have lost sight as to what sexuality is about, it's not about purely sex, it's about self awareness.

As to the original question of 'Why do you wear the clothes you wear?' I wear the clothes I wear because I feel comfortable in them, and because I feel they portray me, I will wear v-necks and show a bit of flesh in that sense but it's not about being provocative it's about what suits me, if I wore something with a high round neck it wouldn't look all that great I would probably look mumsy. I've had a few odd comments off people about what I wear but it generally isn't negative, just that they generally wouldn't wear what i would. I love to accessorise, I wouldn't say that was anything to do with being sexually provocative it's basically all about keeping myself happy. I like to think the majority of designers I like don't have the same motivation as galliano, I like for there to be elements of female sexuality in the clothes i wear, but I find pure 'sex' is uneccessary.

The idea of galliano's motivation is, i believe, unfortunate, but sometimes this stuff just sells, there is the idea of it being the womans control her power being the clothes she wears, but then again I believe women in modern society should have more confidence than to find sexuality(or should i say sex) merely in the clothes they wear. Then again it could also be about the mens desire, and seeing the women as what would basically be a victim of their sexual desires.

I'm probably not clear there, and have contradicted myself in some way or another no doubt, but I hope I got across some of what I was wanting to say

 

[helena]

i think that people too often overlook the fact that there are all kinds of sex...

and that people are all turned on by different things...some prefer blondes...some like to talk...some like to cuddle...some like to be tied up...some are submissive...some get turned on by power...some by laughter...it's a big world out there...full of lot of different people...who are all different...

so the assumption that all men respond to a certain 'type' is a bit old-fashioned imo...and even insulting to men...as though they can't think clearly and are completely driven by their libido...and have no mind of their own...

makes the mens seem pretty pathetic, no?...

yes maybe I am being unfair softgrey in my generalisation.....I suspect that my vision is somewhat clouded by the types of men I encounter every day. But of course there are lots of men who aren't like that...

but here in the UK there is a prevailing trend towards 'laddishness' which involves less of the 'thinking' element and more of the unbridled libido. Well thats my take on it.... but I may be harbouring unfair prejudices.

I guess my point was that the versace's & the gucci's & the cavalli's of the world are presenting female sexiness in such a blatant form ....flesh & t*ts & ***......and in such omnipresent methods .....which makes it hard for men (and women) to decide for themselves what actually IS sexy. we are just told what is sexy all the time.

 

[softgrey]

oh absolutely helena...i was referring to the media mostly and the images that are rammed down all of our throats on such a regular basis...

and i think your last point is very important..and the same as mine actually...
that very often it becomes difficult for us to individually decide for ourselves what IS sexy...and sometimes i find myself falling into the trap as well...we're only human after all...so then i think it's good to remind ourselves that just because it's on TV or in the media...doesn't necessarily make it true...or doesn't make it the only option...

besides...what works on tv or on film does not necessarily work in real life...we tend to forget that all of that is mostly 'smoke and mirrors'...and that most people we see in the media don't even really look like that in 'real life'...so why would we even try to...

i guess my real point is that men and women alike really need to use their brains more ...imho... ..

anyway...that's the biggest turn-on for me...
it has been said that the mind is the greatest sexual organ...

 

[helena]

totally agreed softgrey ...or maybe a love organ.

I also find it hard sometimes to work out what I think when I am bombarded with images of so called sexiness all the time..... and of course comparison tied up in it all..... women feel bad about themselves because that don't live up to this image of sexiness that is forced upon us (its the same with men but to a lesser extent) and so our confidence is reduced (and we all know how integral to inner sexiness confidence is)....

 

[fab_fifties_fille]

I agree, it's hard not to be influenced by the media regardless of how strong a mind you have, especially having interest in the fashion industry it's impossible not to be bombarded by the media. Therefore it does become confusing as to which are your original thoughts, and which have been drilled into you by the media

 

[ajott]

Hmm, I think it is difficult for women to get free from these role images projected on them. When they would try to look extra anti-sexy, then they would still let their clothing be determined by this.

There are also certain images for males, but they don't seem to be so strong. I've never felt like an object for sex and/or sell use. I never had any worries concerning clothing and sexyness. I'm trying to dress interesting both for feeling better and more confident and to attract women (but only the ones that may really like me, not every women).

I wonder why advertising and music videos etc. with "attractive babes" still continues or why there aren't shown equal numbers of men shown in something considered as a sexually attractive pose when half of the consumers are women now. Perhaps because the majority of managers is still male (and narrow minded)? Or is the average female more immune to this than the average male, so it would be of no use for selling? I don't know.

But I would love to see this kind of advertising and all stupid hip hop videos to be banned, don't need this.

 

[ajott]

Some more from a male:
Due to my unusal body size for a male I often look in the womens section for clothing. Just for a basic t-shirt, pullover, or maybe even some narrow-cut trousers or a simple jacket (without darts). Everytime I'm there I ask myself: Oh my god, what would I do if I were a woman and just want to buy something "normal"? There are heaps of clothes, but so many things have some special features on it, that are supposed to be necessary on womens clothing, but which I just find ridiculous, even when worn by a woman.

 

[stilista]

I was really young when I first had to think about what to wear to avoid sexual advances and comments from men. I was about 12 and was shocked that middle-aged men would say those things to a kid. It now makes me realise why all the teenybopper pop stars are marketed in the vulgar way they are. Very sad.

I didn't dress in any way provocatively growing up, so I shudder to think what kids now who wear crop tops with thongs showing must go through.

I think women have to develop a real 'couldn't give a f**k' attitude' in order to cope with how men react to what they wear. It can be hard just getting about London in a knee-length, long sleeved dress sometimes!! so I often wonder how the bottle blonde/big boobed/miniskirted women cope just going about day to day I couldn't imagine craving that kind of attention, nor being able to cope with it.

 

[Dubuc]

Why do you wear the clothes you wear?

Interested to hear views here.... I was interested (and a bit outraged) to read John Galliano's 'motivation' when he designs (i.e he wants to design clothes for women that make men want to f**k them). It led me to consider three things

one, what do women really want when they wear clothes (and do they really want to attract those men who just want to f**k them); I certainly do not - heaven forbid!

secondly, is it 'good' for women to be viewed by designers (not just JG) purely as objects of sexual desire - I kind of always thought, perhaps niavely, that designers were 'on our side' in the context of gender politics ; and

thirdly, what is sexy anyway? Surely not all men are constantly sex hungry....Is Galliano not insulting other men by this suggestion?

I know that this whole topic is subject to the usual 'eye of the beholder' caveat, and I know that Dior/Galliano are marketing to a particular woman but he is surely alienating a huge nuber of women with comments like that. Arguably, Tom Ford has tried to market his 'sexy' brand Gucci as stronger & more powerful without the same objectification that JG seems to propose, but does he really acheive a better result for us women (take the 'G' in the pubic hair - i mean it was pure tackiness dressed up with a slick ad)? mmmmm What about Versace/Cavalli???

What do you think?

I havent read the all thread, but all I have to say is that Galliano is out of the track. Maybe he is a great designer and all but if this is really his motivation, well that makes him a really bad designer. When you design cloths, you must design them FOR the people that wear them, not for the others (like men). Some artists are a bit excentric but this guy is really out of it and it is really insulting for the women who wear his cloths.
I dont think women are sexual objects, way from there.
Women are the must beautiful thing the world got right now!

Personnaly, as a man, what I wear is for me for the most part. I would lie if I'd say that it is ONLY for me. I dress well for the 1st inpression at first. And I dress well also to have a good image. It is my vision, but first of all, I wear designer clothing cuz I feel good in these and I feel good when I think I'm well dress. I'm maybe a bit Impuslive/compulsive but heh! its my personnality. I will never judge somebody's way of dressing, never.