Fashion/sex/politics

[mikeijames]

i love how women are willing to apologize for the men who abuse, brutalize, and oppress them...don't you think that addressing these larger social attitudes both in an individual and largescale way is the best way to correct this and not re-arranging how you dress to suit some man?

teenagers are different bc for the most part teenagers have parents who do or do not take responsibility for how their children dress...and at the end of the day, teenagers are teenagers...i expect them to dress inappropriately.

i'm talking about women. strong, independent women should not and do not have to look unattractive and desexualized in order to gain respect. you go to any office place in a cosmopolitan setting and you'll see women dressing provactively and stylishly (without necessarily being inappropriate). of course, middle america may be behind the curve but that's where i take issue. many women haven't learned that it's okay to dress like a woman at work. to not wear clunk heels and a square skirt. so now to report that these looks somehow represent the cutting edge is strange to me.

is it that we're confusing dressing sexy with dressing inappropriately?

 

[helena]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:51 pm
thanks for clarifying helena...i think i understood your original post and i have to say that my motivation for wearing what i choose to wear is very close to yours...almost exactly the same...

so consider me as part of the one percentile i guess.. ...do you really think it's that small?...no wonder i always feel like an outsider...

you know...i can be wearing the sloppiest messiest clothes with messy hair and no make up , but i'll still get comments from men as i walk by...some may think this is a compliment, but i feel threatened by this...the number of women who are raped is astonishing...i have been fortunate enough to have escaped this horror so far...but i still have half my life ahead of me...anything could happen...so the last thing i want to do is attract more attention to myself...because then i feel more like a target or potential victim than some sort of powerful diva...if i can't run or kick in my clothes i feel way too vulnerable...that's why i don't wear manolos...they are too spindly and you can only teeter in them...an easy target...

Its really sad isn't it that women can feel like this in these supposedly emancipated times? Personally I don't fear for my personal safety but that is probably a lot to do with where I live (although i did get attacked by a nutter guy once but I got away before he could do anything - through quick wit-edness I hasten to add!!!). Basically because there are hardly any women in my job or the industry sectors that I work in, a woman could be wearing a tent & she'd get drooled over like a slab of meat. I don't necessarily think its all the mens faults however....i think women ought to take responsibility for the way they promote themselves visually on a specific or a general level.

Gosh - do I sound like a bit a of a mad man hating - i don't mean to be. Its just frustrating thats all.

Also - its funny you mention manolos softgrey - I totally can't wear heels as I can't walk an inch in them!

 

[helena]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 1:24 pm


teenagers are different bc for the most part teenagers have parents who do or do not take responsibility for how their children dress...and at the end of the day, teenagers are teenagers...i expect them to dress inappropriately.

i'm talking about women. strong, independent women should not and do not have to look unattractive and desexualized in order to gain respect. you go to any office place in a cosmopolitan setting and you'll see women dressing provactively and stylishly (without necessarily being inappropriate). of course, middle america may be behind the curve but that's where i take issue. many women haven't learned that it's okay to dress like a woman at work. to not wear clunk heels and a square skirt. so now to report that these looks somehow represent the cutting edge is strange to me.

is it that we're confusing dressing sexy with dressing inappropriately?

Completely agree on the parents taking responsibility for how teenagers dress - don't know about the US but in the UK you can't really buy propre 'childrens' clothes anymore - all childrens clothes are mini-adult clothes. That is another topic of course which was recently covered in this section.

What you say about dressing appropriately is spot on thought - I try my hardest to do that - I try to retain my sense of style whilst dressing appropriately for my job. I wear skirt or trouser suits, i wear blouses, I wear jewellery & slight heeled shoes. I would never ever wear anything that resmebles a Dior outfit though....

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:24 pm
i love how women are willing to apologize for the men who abuse, brutalize, and oppress them...don't you think that addressing these larger social attitudes both in an individual and largescale way is the best way to correct this and not re-arranging how you dress to suit some man?

i love how you continue to put words in people's mouths...who's apologizing for these guys?!?!?!...

it is a statement of fact...
if you know there are snakes around, you take precautions not to get bitten...you can try to train the snakes not to bite, but if it's in their nature...every once in a while you will get attacked...to deny this fact is foolish...women also have to protect themselves...and i don't know where you live..but i live in NYC...pretty much the most metropolitan city in the world...

i don't see martha stewart in stiletto's and she's pretty damn powerful...look at oprah winfrey...
and i ask again ...who is apologizing for anyone...???

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by helena@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:26 pm


Also - its funny you mention manolos softgrey - I totally can't wear heels as I can't walk an inch in them!

yeah helena...i was sort of attacked/approached a couple of times as a teen...also got away due to some quick thinking... but that is real...and it's out there all the time...

as far as the manolos... ...i wear heels quite frequently in the evenings...but usually boots or pumps which offer more support...i actually LOVE a good heel...
manolos in particular really offer very little support...and we also have that walk everywhere issue in ny...

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:37 pm
i don't see martha stewart in stiletto's and she's pretty damn powerful...look at oprah winfrey...
and i ask again ...who is apologizing for anyone...???

both oprah and martha stewart wear what they feel best in. oprah is hardly hiding in a low cut ferre wrap top and i don't think that martha stewart is hiding her femininity in a gold jacket by chado ralph rucci. these women's personalities exude from what they wear.

you issue of safety is quite valid. i have friends in the city, too and it's a real issue. i'm not advocating making oneself a target. i just think that if a woman wants to wear a slink low-slung a-line mustard skirt to work with a lacy top under a pin striped jacket (as one of my friends is wearing today) she should without thinking that she will not be respected in the work place.

it's fashion, it's appropriate, it's sexy, and it's feminine. and she dresses like that because she looks damn good in it.

 

[Embrace88]

Sometimes I hate being a girl, because I can't wear things I want to wear without feeling like a sex object. I just bought about three miniskirts that I thought were really cute, but if I wear them, I feel like people think I'm looking for sex...

I mean, I DO want to be attractive. I know one day I'll grow out of this, but I hate being a girl sometimes. I hate how p*rn makes men think that girls are meant for f*cking. I hate "girl". "Woman" sounds more powerful. I felt like sucha sl*t my freshman year and I didn't look like one at all. I hate how if a girl has sexual desire, she's immediately "off" somehow. Or like she's a sl*t. I HATE that. I hate how guys put up posters of women on the walls. Ahhh... sometimes I wish genitalia didn't exists, so people wouldn't be so messed up.

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by stylegurrl+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 10:54 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stylegurrl @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 10:54 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

I agree with you 100% SG [/b][/quote]
softie, you said it so well

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by mikeijames+Jun 23rd, 2004 - 3:49 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mikeijames @ Jun 23rd, 2004 - 3:49 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:37 pm
i don't see martha stewart in stiletto's and she's pretty damn powerful...look at oprah winfrey...
and i ask again ...who is apologizing for anyone...???

both oprah and martha stewart wear what they feel best in. oprah is hardly hiding in a low cut ferre wrap top and i don't think that martha stewart is hiding her femininity in a gold jacket by chado ralph rucci. these women's personalities exude from what they wear.

you issue of safety is quite valid. i have friends in the city, too and it's a real issue. i'm not advocating making oneself a target. i just think that if a woman wants to wear a slink low-slung a-line mustard skirt to work with a lacy top under a pin striped jacket (as one of my friends is wearing today) she should without thinking that she will not be respected in the work place.

it's fashion, it's appropriate, it's sexy, and it's feminine. and she dresses like that because she looks damn good in it. [/b][/quote]
well if she's got to take the subway to get there...then it's still an issue...

and it obviously depends upon what one does for a living...some workplaces are more conservative than others...

but i think we can both agree that dressing in a way that is flattering does not have to include revealing what type of undergarments we are wearing...there is a way to look attractive without showing too much flesh...

likewise...dressing in a way that doesn't show all your curves doesn't have to mean wearing a nun's habit...

i vote for a casual easy elegance which is flattering and comfortable...because what is sexier than being at ease with oneself...?...

 

[Lena]

Originally posted by stylegurrl+Jun 22nd, 2004 - 11:03 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (stylegurrl @ Jun 22nd, 2004 - 11:03 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:59 pm

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey

@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

   

I agree with you 100% SG

let's hear it for independant women!!!

(Destiny's Child song plays in the background)

'All the honeys makin' money, throw your hands up at me'

[/b][/quote]
go softie, go joining in

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by Embrace88@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 4:03 pm
Sometimes I hate being a girl, because I can't wear things I want to wear without feeling like a sex object. I just bought about three miniskirts that I thought were really cute, but if I wear them, I feel like people think I'm looking for sex...

I mean, I DO want to be attractive. I know one day I'll grow out of this, but I hate being a girl sometimes. I hate how p*rn makes men think that girls are meant for f*cking. I hate "girl". "Woman" sounds more powerful. I felt like sucha sl*t my freshman year and I didn't look like one at all. I hate how if a girl has sexual desire, she's immediately "off" somehow. Or like she's a sl*t. I HATE that. I hate how guys put up posters of women on the walls. Ahhh... sometimes I wish genitalia didn't exists, so people wouldn't be so messed up.

i didn't really start to feel like a woman until my mid-30's....so i know what you mean...

the images in the media are very detrimental to women...it's not just p*rn...p*rn and a britney spears or x-tina video look much the same these days...and don't get me started on the hip hop crap that's out there...

and we've actually got it good...think about the places in the world where women don't have any options and are controlled by the men...it just terrifies me that we could slide back to that some day...

women like pamela andersen and paris hilton TERRIFY me...i think men' s minds are getting warped by them and so are young women's miinds who are trying to measure up to some plastic fantasy of a blow up doll that some men have...

all i say is...
ladies...never, EVER lower your standards..!!!...and please don't embarrass the rest of us...we've got to stick together, not compete so much!!

love thy sister!!!!

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by Lena+Jun 23rd, 2004 - 4:12 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lena @ Jun 23rd, 2004 - 4:12 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 11:03 pm

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:59 pm

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:54 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-softgrey

@Jun 22nd, 2004 - 4:43 pm
so is there a general assumption that ALL women LIVE to ATTRACT MEN?....that this is their only consideration and reason for making the choices that they do?...

because that is INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!............

I know exactly when men begin to be interested in /attracted to me...and it's the second i open my mouth...it's what i say...and they don't just want to F*CK me...they want to spend time with me... because i hold their interest for more than the five minutes it takes to ejaculate...

those bottle blondes with the boobs that acid refers to will get F*CKed .... but then what???>....
ps...most women really aren't looking to just get f*cked... regardless of how many sex and the city episodes you all may have watched...they are usually looking for a full relationship which includes sex among many other things...

OR NOT>>>some women ACTUALLY LIKE being single and some women are already in relationships...


*grumble grumble grumble..

   

I agree with you 100% SG

let's hear it for independant women!!!

(Destiny's Child song plays in the background)

'All the honeys makin' money, throw your hands up at me'

go softie, go joining in [/b][/quote]
SING IT MY SISTERS ...!!!...

WOOHOO!!!

 

[prixi]

Originally posted by mikeijames+Jun 23rd, 2004 - 4:49 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mikeijames @ Jun 23rd, 2004 - 4:49 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-softgrey@Jun 23rd, 2004 - 12:37 pm
i don't see martha stewart in stiletto's and she's pretty damn powerful...look at oprah winfrey...
and i ask again ...who is apologizing for anyone...???

both oprah and martha stewart wear what they feel best in. oprah is hardly hiding in a low cut ferre wrap top and i don't think that martha stewart is hiding her femininity in a gold jacket by chado ralph rucci. these women's personalities exude from what they wear.

you issue of safety is quite valid. i have friends in the city, too and it's a real issue. i'm not advocating making oneself a target. i just think that if a woman wants to wear a slink low-slung a-line mustard skirt to work with a lacy top under a pin striped jacket (as one of my friends is wearing today) she should without thinking that she will not be respected in the work place.

it's fashion, it's appropriate, it's sexy, and it's feminine. and she dresses like that because she looks damn good in it. [/b][/quote]
Agreed. So, so agreed.

 

[softgrey]

i just was re-reading this topic...
helena...this was a very good topic you started...
half of these members aren't here anymore....which is too bad...because they were definitley an asset...i miss mikeijames...

maybe some of our newer members would like to weigh in on this topic...

 

[Lena]

mikeijames comes and goes all the time no?
in an un-earthing mood tonight/today softie?

 

[softgrey]

...
i did a search for something...and all these great older topics came up...
along with some stuff that had to move over to the new section...it's been very interesting actually...

unfortunately...i haven't seen mikeijames for some months...
his posts are quite rare these days...tott has also disappeared...

 

[Ella]

Softgrey said:
"Your clothes absolutely convey something of who you are...and as they say...you never get a second chance to make a first impression...assumptions WILL be made based on your appearance and the way you present yourself...so everyone needs to consider that when they choose what they wear...ask yourself...who am i? and who do i want the world to see?...what do I want people to know about me?...what do i have to say?..."
Very well put, I agree. Clothes do say a lot about who you are and people will judge you, but I've learned not to care so much about first impressions as I'm not very good at them but let people get to know me.

And as for what is sexy? I think sexy is something that comes from within, I can't explain it. The way someone talks can be sexy. The way someone moves their hair can be sexy. It can be anything.

And who do I dress for? I wear whatever I want really, my friends have made fun of some of the crazy things I've worn but I didn't care and wore them anyway! I take it as much more of a compliment if a very well dressed girl/woman looks at my than if some disgusting freak winks at me. I don't really care about what guys think about how I dress, I dress sexy if I feel sexy, I won't wear makeup if I don't won't to wear it. I want to be attractive because I love beauty, because I'm a perfectionist and because it makes me feel confident. And if a guy goes up to a blonde, big chested girl wearing a miniskirt I feel there's something wrong with them, like they don't appreciate real beauty. I don't really even care to meet such a guy. Girls with no self-condifence dress like that. That's why the girls in playboy aren't beautiful- a beautiful girl would have so much confidence in herself that she would never have to resort to something like that just to feel attractive. I don't know if I'm a little bit off the topic here...

Anyway to add to the topic Kimora Lee Simmons was being interviewed about her Baby Phat collection and they asked what fashion is to her to which she replied: "Beauty and sex". This says something about her clothes.... no? The same goes with John Galliano in my opinion.

 

[nqth]

It's a men's world, isn't it:-) When almost everything is determined by men. Even what is a sexual atraction. Some said here that it's the women and clothes in power. It's not that kind of power that's really importent, imo. The power is about to decide for yourself and your own life, to be independent, to be a partner. Not to dry men go "excited".

I am wondering if Galliano has the same in mind when he designs men collections:-) His clothes show an extremely exagerated, caricature of masculinity and feminity. I think it 's just not "to be f**k", it's to be f**k by all human kind.


It's funny I watched a tv show yetserday. Very good one. It's actually a book show. Host by a fenimist, literature critic and a prof. of literature. The show was about a book written by famous Czech TV talkshow star (the title is more less Desperate Women Do Desperate Things) and Jane Bowles (Two Serious Ladies).

The tv star has "big breast", she complains about her love hurts. And her book is more less about "gimme husband", while "waving" her big, bold breast everywhere she can.

At some point the feminist said every women is unsatisfied about her body. This is the way women are raised.

They also said about two "types" of sexuality. One is about "to get a man". And women used to be (and somewhere still are) raised to "follow their men". I understand that the other one is "turning to your inside", like a dialog with your body and desires. And I think we can see fashion designers going this way, too.

Was it not very long time ago that showing one's sexuality was a real revolution? Kind of protest about a gorset of sin and conservatism. Now that the sexual revolution is over, exposing sex is so last year, isn't it:-P

Talking about being independent, who wants to live a life shown in jourgurt ads? But so many want to look "runway", don't they?

 

[helena]

thanks for your input nqth - I think we share similar views on these matters. Given the world I require to operate in, I am so encouraged to read what people like you think on these types of issues. Its good to know that some men out there are thinking & understanding & who can reason beyond what they are force fed by the media and society in general. Thankyou.

Btw, do you think I should enlarge my breasts to a 32FF or a 32GG???? mmmmm - LOL

 

[nqth]

You are very welcome, Helena:-)

PS. To be honest I don't know what these sizes mean:-D