Fashion/sex/politics

[melt977]

And I have to add, it's not only he clothes that make a woman look what is commonly perceived as "sl*tty" or not... it's mostly the way she carries herself around and her behaviour... Helena, judging by your posts in many threads, you wouldn't be perceived as "sexy" (in a John Galliano way), even if you WERE actually wearing John Galliano.

Even if someone had you and Paris Hlton wearing exactly the same outfit, she would still look cheap but you (or anyone like you) wouldn't.. because your personality would never allow you to carry yourself, nor behave, in the way Miss Hilton does...

 

[BaroqueRockstar]

Just wanted to add that dolphins have sex for pleasure as well. bonobo's however are the only other animals besides humans that participate in oral sex, sodomy, homosexuality, and french kissing. The only member that is out of bounds for a bonobo is a mother and son, everyone else is fair game. they're fascinating. Anyone who's interested should check their wikipedia article.

Sorry for the off topic!

Also off topic...
i saw a documentary on with bonobos called "why sex"...
bonobos are indeed quite fascinating...

 

[miss6o]

interesting topic.. i always thought that guys want to see women who do not show everything at once, so that some things are left on guessing... thats what makes the woman interesting and mysterious, and sexy. but maybe im wrong..maybe guys just want t*ts and ***. then whats the point of having clothes at all??

personally i think that someone can be even more sexy when they are covered up, let the figure and siloutte show the sexyness..makes the person more interesting too.

when im dressing im not thinking will this make guys wanna f*ck me, after all im not a prostitute. haha. i think sexyness comes from persona, and clothes are big part of that..defining who we are.. and i for sure as hell, dont wanna come across as an easy woman.....

 

[xsavagex]

1.i think women want to look attractive to men, but also wear what they wear to look good for themselves.. and also maybe to impress other women.

2.No, i dont thinnk its good

3.i see sexy as someone who is confident in what they are wearing.. Whether they are wearing next to nothing.. or a random selection of crazy clothes.. if they can be confident in that they look good and that they like what they are wearing then they are sexy.

i personally wear what i wear because its comfortable and looks good.

 

[melt977]

interesting topic.. i always thought that guys want to see women who do not show everything at once, so that some things are left on guessing... thats what makes the woman interesting and mysterious, and sexy. but maybe im wrong..maybe guys just want t*ts and ***. then whats the point of having clothes at all??

personally i think that someone can be even more sexy when they are covered up, let the figure and siloutte show the sexyness..makes the person more interesting too.

when im dressing im not thinking will this make guys wanna f*ck me, after all im not a prostitute. haha. i think sexyness comes from persona, and clothes are big part of that..defining who we are.. and i for sure as hell, dont wanna come across as an easy woman.....

Then the guys you attract are looking for women like you... Some look for demure sexy, others for sophisticated sexy and others for blunt sexiness... it depends on the guy and his personality...

It might be that a beautiful body dressed scantily is admired by all... however, admiration is not necessarily attraction... and guys - as softgrey said - should be given some credit.... they too have personalities and are attracted by women who match their needs... these needs can sometimes be sex and others intellectual stimulous... a combination of the two is usually what turns lust into something more...

but depending on the guy - receiver, a demurely dressed woman can provoke lust as much as a scantily dressed one... it's all a matter of chemistry and personal needs and wants at the time...

Now, when it comes to men wolf-wistling in the street, my opinion is that they would wistle no matter how you are dressed... most of the men who do that is just what they do when they see women... so unless you are a nun, if a guy is in the mood to wolf-whistle then he will, be it you are dressed in Ann D or Gucci, or even in your jogging pants...

imo, the same goes for r*pe... stats show that street rapes don't have a lot to do with appearances and what women wear... r*pists check other things first... if you are alone, if they can grab your hair, if you seem stronger than them... as far as date-r*pe is concerned, it can happen to anyone dressed in anything... if a r*pist is out to r*pe, he will attempt to,no matter what... Like in all other forms of crime...

 

[mellowdrama]

1. What do women really want when they wear clothes?
Apart from the usual warmth/protection from the elements, when I wear my work clothes, I need a certain amount of comfort & professionalism. I'm a massage therapist in a doctor's office in a business district. So it's got to be polished, but not too form-fitting. Weekends, I still want to be comfortable: so it's jeans and a Tshirt. Sometimes, the Tshirt has a message, which may or may not be in earnest. When I'm going out to a nightclub or what-have-you, I assess the event and choose whatever subcultural costume will make me blend in. Sometimes, I do the "sexy" thing: makeup, skirt, heels, perfume. I have the tailored, designer pieces which make me look "money", but I'd rather live in Tshirt and jeans, honestly. That's why I'm always posting in the gossip section, really. I love fashion on others, on me it looks like I'm trying much too hard.

What I "really want" is to make an impression as someone who cares enough about myself to be clean and groomed. Caring about yourself first demonstrates you're capable of recognizing others' efforts, sartorial and otherwise. I will never be a fashion plate, not with all the money and leisure in the world: I do not look down upon those who are.

2. I don't think designers view us women "purely as objects of sexual desire", at least not their sexual desire, as many of them aren't on our sexual-preference team. I think many (gay male) designers view us purely aesthetically, yet more reverently and honestly than any straight man or woman could. Everybody has a mother, everybody has an image of ideal womanhood. Ditching concepts of sexual preference altogether, I can look upon another woman and say she's dressed or is "sexy" without feeling she's just a sex object, with no envy or confusion as to my own sexual preference. Anyone with any intelligence or maturity, regardless of their sexual preference, is well aware that a human being of limitless depth exists naked behind the costume.

3. Sexy is what you're imprinted with at an early age. I had a dumpy roommate who wore ill-fitting clothes on a doughy frame, yet her long, shapeless skirts featured a mile-high back-slit and milk-white stockings, paired with Birkenstocks, a fierce intelligence, and a blue-eyed, elvin grin. She was like a Hobbit librarian hooker. Her devotees are out there in droves. Like my grandma said, "Every pot has a lid." No matter your appearance, don't sweat it, sincerely...

 

[Melisande]

3. Sexy is what you're imprinted with at an early age. I had a dumpy roommate who wore ill-fitting clothes on a doughy frame, yet her long, shapeless skirts featured a mile-high back-slit and milk-white stockings, paired with Birkenstocks, a fierce intelligence, and a blue-eyed, elvin grin. She was like a Hobbit librarian hooker. Her devotees are out there in droves. Like my grandma said, "Every pot has a lid." No matter your appearance, don't sweat it, sincerely...

I love what you wrote there and agree wholeheartedly. The two biggest men-magnets I know are not any of my beautiful model friends:...one is a short nerdy girl with thick glasses and no makeup and chunky features. She wears funky designer pieces by no means traditionally sexy.Attractive, successful men simply flock to her for her c*ck-sure sexiness and rebellious sense of fun. The other is an 8 year old girl in baggy hand-me-down sweats, filthy scratched knees and tangled hair...she was just born with a wild powerful sexuality I have yet to see in anyone else, and the boys in her class chase her around trying to kiss her. What I mean is, like someone mentioned earlier, sexuality has little to do with clothes or the way someone looks but more of an inner energy.

I wear clothes which flatter my features and fit my mood, period.
I was furious when I heard some guys saying that girls who wear miniskirts are only doing so to attract men or feel sexy. Women could do minis simply because they may be a practical solution in the rain, a comfortable option in the summer, or a good match with comfy flats...any number of reasons.
I often wear an open decollete because it flatters and blances out my features purely from a geometric point of view, not to show anything off. I hate when I have to change what I like to wear because "men may misunderstand."
That's just me though.

 

[Multitudes]

There is more of a suggestion, here in this thread, that the exposure of "skin" is sexual as opposed to "extension and exposure of the body" which, presumably, viewed in terms of fetishization of women as object enmeshed in the male gaze. This also suggest that all gaze are male... which is where the hole psycological theory and approach goes wrong ....

And also is it only men who wants sexual relations "with out" feelings?... and shouldn't we rather talk about different types of feelings, because for me even though a certain relationship to a woman might be merely sexual it does have feelings(and sensations)... I have met plenty of women who only wanted the sexual experience for that purpose only... I feel so used.. ...

Ok back to being serious I think melt977 is making a very important point, it's not the cloth or the exposure itself that makes a person "sl*tty", but it's more about how the person carries them selfs and there behavouir... and this brings up this question again, are the exposure of skin per se "sexual" or "sl*tty"?...

beside the functional part of dressing, I dress to seduce... when I say seduction, then it is not ment as a sexual act, but it is meant as being a quality, energy and intencities, that shimmering on the surface, without depth, without meaning, a game not hold down by truth or sexuality... sexuality is merely a side product in the seductive act ...the seductive act is about connections, creativity, desires, sensations... which is not bound to gender, sexuality, truth or other terms. based on language or other dominant discourses... and I think mellowdrama that's what you also touches upon in your 3. paragraph, that sexiness is something we are imprinted with through dominant discourses... and by the way could you introduce me to that "Hobbit librarian hooker"...

Said in another way I dress to cennect... to create events... to create an assemblage of desires... it's a becoming... becoming other... that is a seductive act...

Edit:... Melisande is here... ... I dress to "DANCE"... ....

 

[mellowdrama]

...and by the way could you introduce me to that "Hobbit librarian hooker"

I would, but we had a terrible falling out. We moved into our place in Sept. of 2001, and after that month's big event, she quit her job and retreated into a pile of newspapers as both a source of information and bedding material. Which then led to her not being able to make rent, so I had the bright idea of bringing in a subletter--an actor and very interesting, witty conversationalist, thief, liar, marijuana dealer and IV drug user--to help make rent. I admit I was thinking, yenta-like, that the pairing of an agoraphobic paranoiac Hobbit librarian hooker and a bisexual junkie prone to leaving his used needles unsheathed in the bathroom was going to produce the most adorable babies ever.

I was wrong.

Oh, and back on topic: my point #2 doesn't make sense to even myself after rereading it today. What I think I'm trying to say is that groups who are unlike one another---gay men & straight women, for instance--often build trusting relationships unbesmirched by the confusion of sexual or other kinds of desire. That doesn't make much sense, either. Perhaps, more loosely: I've enjoyed being a ***-hag--erm, muse--to my gay male friends because while playing dress-up they're brutally honest and can see through whatever smokescreen of sexiness and danger I try to emit. Either that, or they help me to fine-tune it. Of course, this is not an inherent function of all gay males, my friends or otherwise, so please let's not start an argument over it. Unless you really want to, then I'm game.

 

[jennifer~]

and by the way could you introduce me to that "Hobbit librarian hooker"...

I always found any one of those three words to be sufficient alone, until now...

 

[ackulick]

1. I believe it completely depends on the woman's personality. A lady who has a sense of self worth that depends on the attention she gets from guys may cause her to dress provocatively (sadly). I like feeling I am attractive with my choice of clothes but by my own standards and nobody elses. Hell I already get the attention from the gross brainwashed sex fiends, so why would I want to make things worse? I'm incredibly guy-picky. But some girls want to feel like a lot of guys want to do them, like it makes them more valuable (thanks to media!) and its not true at all. I think guys fall into the mess themselves... and are worse at young ages and this is why I dont date...

2. It isnt ever good for women to be viewed only as sexual objects but thats one of the many faults of our culture.... in my opinion one of the very worst. But for designers to do this, it could be worse because their designs are seen on models, and a lady viewing the "sexy" design on the model can subconciously get the impression that in order to be sexy, she needs to look just like the model. Bad self image, low self esteem, all that awful stuff can arise.

3. Personal preferencee. I'm straight but I think a girl is sexy when she can be girly and cute and silly but strong, open-minded, independent, and have standards. I love my girl friends who know what they want and dont settle for less just have something with someone... because thats how I am. Guys are sexy when they are funny, open-minded, not promiscuous or concieted. I like it when guys view girls as complete equals, not expecting any more from a girl than what they give. On another note.. nice fitting jeans, a good sweater, and umm nearly any well-fitted suit from the 1920's to 1940's will start my motor?


fin
http://www.thefashionspot.com/forums/#

 

[Multitudes]

I always found any one of those three words to be sufficient alone, until now...

... I'm wondering if Jennifer reads alot... OK!... I'm off to the library... ...

Ooh and miss Berkeley... Mellowdrama... ... that little story was quite something :... you would think twice before you pick your subletter....... "***-hag"... ... yeah lets play ...

Ooh and back to topic.... ... I think that was it... for now......

 

[lilach]

the reason i wear the clothes i wear? i want to look the best i can simple as that.
oh and there is nothing wrong with loocking f*ckable in my world if that makes me a sl*t well it s up to you to decide i know the better

 

[couturex]

when you think about it, clothes are simply needed to keep the body warm. if we weren't trying to impress people, or ourselves, we would buy any typical item of clothing from wal mart.

but we can't kid ourselves, we girls try to make everyone know exactly who we are.. including males.

so i just think he was simply telling the truth that no one wanted to hear, women wear "sexy" clothes for male attention.

 

[Kizzume]

Sex sells. Besides selling products and services, sex sells clothing.

Men, unfortunately, still seem to be the ones guiding many of the rules of society. I think it's unfortunate that it's commonplace right now for men to dress in the most de-sexualized manner they can. I also think it's unfortunate that fashion pushes men toward looking like flat-chested women with no makeup who don't shave their pits or legs--we don't celebrate facial hair or balding patterns and we don't celebrate the male physique. Instead, we make women wear makeup, make them shave their legs and pits, make them dress in seductive ways as if men are the ones that are making all the important decisions. In nature--in most animals, the males have a lot more extra markings than the females. It would be the same for humans, but in "moden" "industrialized" human culture, because of strange traditions, we try to reverse that, and we sexualize the women and make men less attractive than women. Not that women aren't attractive. It's really strange to me, but it's what we do.

We also make the human body in general a bad thing, sex a bad thing, sexuality a bad and naughty thing, and when we make it bad, it becomes important--like when someone goes on a diet, food becomes more important--it becomes what one desires.

I think people wear the clothes they wear so they can feel like they're attractive--not necessarily to other people, and not necessarily "sexually" attractive, but so they can like who they see in the mirror. For those that don't rely on media to tell them what's attractive, the appearance of what a person thinks is attractive for themselves can be quite varied, and it's a beautiful thing when that is the case (when they can feel attractive without relying on media's messages). When it's not the case, however, and people rely on media to tell them what's attractive, you have women (and some men, but very rarely) going around trying to dress in the most sexualized manner they can in order to feel attractive--because media pushes the idea of "sex sells", and you have to "sell yourself" in order to make it--if you want a job, you have to sell yourself, if you want to become popular, you have to sell yourself--when I say "sell yourself", I'm not meaning prostitution of the body, but I am meaning of your mind and who you are, and the connections that our minds make to "selling ourselves" because of media, people feel at least just a little bit that one has to slightly sexualize themselves in order to sell themselves.

If we didn't turn the human body and sex into "naughty" things, fashion would be such a different animal. We'd probably look more like tribes in Africa or some of those hidden tribes in South America.

I agree with those that basically stated that people, when they are themselves and are comfortable with themselves, are generally more attractive to others than those that are uncomfortable with themselves, no matter what they're wearing (no matter how sl*tty, or sexy, or businesslike) and no matter what their body type is.

I think if we were left to a more natural progression of what people's appearances are, like in a more tribal fashion, men would be the ones trying to dress more sexy and would be the ones trying to seduce women with their appearance in hopes that the women would choose them to be the ones to give the seed for their child. The way things currently are, men think that "they" should be the ones calling the shots on things and making the rules on everything because they were typically the ones who brought food on the table, but women have been the ones who actually have had to be stronger than men--emotionally and mentally, and that still is generally the case today, women are generally emotionally and mentally stronger than men, and, sorry guys, women can take more pain than men--I can't even imagine the pain of birthing a child. Women also seem to be more naturally connected spiritually. I can only hope that spiritually-connected (but -definately- not religious) women will eventually have a bigger role in the rules of our society in the future.

This culture that sexualizes women, however, takes all of that away, and the natural flow of things is never allowed to flourish.

 

[fashionista-ta]

anna - I totally agree with you - this was what Chanel tried to change eighty years ago.....and we haven't moved on really what she tried to get away from. In some ways women have become more constrained by a male vision what 'we' should be. I think hollywood & the cult of celebrity is to blame partially as well as those influential designers like Galliano/Gucci who seem to want to portray women as vacant wh*re-dolls whose only purpose in life is to attract sexual encounters. Agreed on the Helmut Newton strong sexy woman - Guy Bourdin's also..... its a prima facie 'strong' image, whilst in reality its just a manipulation of woman into a male fantasy (or a cliche of such fantasy). Most men are completely intimidated by strong women who wear clothes which don't display any sense of availability or overt sexuality.

Just wanted to comment that I've worked with a lot of men who seem to be comforted by women at work who dress this way. I think many men don't want to deal with women as women in the workplace.

 

[Missoni~Heiress]

i think women can use sexuality as power especially through fashion... but like in most haute couture tastefully revealing... sex sells because it catches attention...

 

[Missoni~Heiress]

Even if someone had you and Paris Hlton wearing exactly the same outfit, she would still look cheap but you (or anyone like you) wouldn't.. because your personality would never allow you to carry yourself, nor behave, in the way Miss Hilton does...

i agree

 

[Kimkhuu]

i think women can use sexuality as power especially through fashion... but like in most haute couture tastefully revealing... sex sells because it catches attention...

Totally disagree with you on this. Sexuality as power, that's what they're trying to make us believe, it is more the opposite that is true.... I'll repost what I put in the Hussein Chalayan S/S 07 thread to redirect the debate here....

 

[softgrey]

good lord kimkhuu- it's 'versace goddess'...
..
i mean...come on...she isn't serious!!!
at least try to have a debate with someone who is being serious about the issues...