whitnail
I need someone to explain to me why Juergen Teller is worth my time.
kurvasemet
He's the postmodern Guy Bourdin. He elevates snapshot photography while gently chipping away at the glass house that surrounds fashion. He subverts in the most beautiful of ways.
whitnail well then i guess that's the other question.
are these images beautiful?
do they have a grace of their own or are they purely reactionary. purely a middle finger at fashion.
kurvasemet
The women are beautiful, the clothes are beautiful, the set is beautiful. If the photography itself was a self-conscious attempt at obvious beauty, I think it would be too much--like a too-sweet pastry. That's where these images gain their strength, presenting the couture and the outlandish old money setting in a completely banal and offhand way. It's throwaway, it's garbage, and it's treating the sacred cows of fashion in the same way.
whitnail
the sacred cows of fashion have been tipped before.
avedon's elephants are some of the most beautiful f*ck-yous to fashion in the world.
much as it pains me, even meisel's dead-model school of fashion (that teller is aping)
were sometimes elegant.
skilled craftsman can approach the problems of straight-laced fashion intelligently
(sokolsky's bubble shots in Paris in the 60s) and create smart images that will speak, subvert and last.
but teller has done none of that.
kurvasemet
I know and love every photographer you just referenced but I think you'll agree that their best work is behind them (obviously in Avedon's case since he's dead). Juergen Teller is for 2006, and in 2006, is elegance necessary or even relevant? Do young people today want to look "elegant"? I don't think so.
As for lasting imagery, I think Juergen would balk at the thought. Like I said before, these images are throwaway. Love them today, leave them tomorrow. He doesn't care. It's not some self-conscious attempt at creating an everlasting image. It's about subverting the whole role of the fashion photographer. You can't pin any stodgy, old-school, bourgeois ideals on Juergen. He's beyond that.
whitnail
okay. awesome. this is the meat.
so.
the logical conclusion is that we're all photographers.
these images he's made
are throwaways as you say.
they required no skill to make. the lighting is flat and
uninteresting. the continually slanted horizon lines suggest
a purposeful carelessness. he wants us to think that he doesn't
care, like you say. the unflattering makeup and compromising
poses suggest he's making fun of beauty. he's making me
not want to buy that dress.
take a look at the Roversi images i posted here a few weeks ago.
http://community.livejournal.com/foto_decadent/1098178.html
let me know if that fits at all in with your thinking of beauty.
if it doesn't then i'd really like to have a conversation about it.
kurvasemet
I get that you're comparing Roversi and Teller as two photographers who knock fashion off its pedestal in diverging ways, one retaining a sense of classical beauty and the other very much intent on obliterating it? Am I correct? I like Roversi a lot and that shoot was great. But his end product is beautiful in a more general sense. It's moody and stirring, whereas Teller tries his hardest to rid his work of any soul or emotion. Roversi is formal, elegant, beautifully composed, but with Teller it's the lack of that structure that makes his work attractive to me.
whitnail
i just want to be clear that you're attracted to Teller's work
and not the gestalt of thumbing your nose at elegant fashion imagery.
because teller is producing empty photographs. you're absolutely right.
and whether or not this was, at first, genius I can't really say.
whether or not the first frontal-flash muted-color stupid-pose image
that teller produced
was a breath of fresh air from stodgy fashion
isn't really clear because i don't think fashion needed fresh air.
what is clear is that teller is a one-trick pony. this is his only move.
if he can divorce himself from the empty images he's made and prove his
hand with a different technique, that will be interesting.
but i can tell you this
marc jacobs and W hire teller because of his current coolth.
any photographer under the sun can shoot the way he shoots but
he gets the jobs as long as his one-trick images sell clothes.
you hire expert photographers with less name value like Roversi
when you want your clothes and your models treated with grace and skill.
kurvasemet
I wouldn't say I thumb my nose at elegance but I would say that it's one of the last things I look for when deciding whether or not I like a work of photography. But that depends if you're talking about the elegance of the photographer's hand or the elegance of the overall package. A beautiful Roversi shoot is certainly my cup of tea. A contrived, "elegant", old-money Vogue shoot is not.
There's an entire league of snapshot fashion photographers (Terry Richardson, Magnus Unnar, Katja Rahlwes) of which I think Teller is the most sophisticated. You say he's a one-trick pony. I say he's smart and knows what the market wants from him. Why reinvent when your work is among the most sought-after in fashion? The fact that he remains a fashion darling while refusing to perpetuate aspirational ideals is testament to some sort of allure within his work.
With Marc Jacobs, it is merely the alignment of two creative minds. You could not imagine a more perfect collaboration because Teller does with the photography exactly what Marc does with the clothes. People call Marc Jacobs a fake and a fraud all the time, too. But it's that offhanded carelessness, elevating the ordinary, that is intoxicating, especially when everyone else is trying so hard.
whitnail
i think were we fundamentally disagree
is that i do not concede that teller knows what he's doing.
i think he's a terrifically lucrative accident without skill.
also, i think he offends me because in my own work i try to be responsible
for so much more than he does-- i try to own content and form and composition
and the technical pieces of light and styling and emulsion.
the message to be taken from the success of his work is that i'm
wasting my time. why learn the craft? why become an excellent photographer
when a half-***ed photographer can make millions?
that exactly is why i can't get behind him.