Phoebe Philo - Designer

[LostInNJ]

I'm going to be the Debbie Downer here but I don't believe in her brand in the long term. It's already barely making any noise anymore, purely nostalgia based, has zero world building and the whole scarcity thing is not a differentiating factor on the market. Good for them if they want to be able to add a "sold out" label on their website and pretend this venture is a success but that's about it.

She chose to go with very restricted marketing and let the product speak, except the market is full of Phoebe-adjacents who found their customer base during her absence. Now she's just one of many, and I'm pretty sure her customer base is full of Céline nostalgics (who also shop at the Phoebe-adjacent brands). After having been gone for so long, you need to let people back into your world. Almost reintroduce them to it and show them why they missed you somehow. Instead, she chose to present everything in the driest way possible.

Rome wasn't built in a day for sure, but she's not a new designer who just popped up. She benefitted from months, years even, of anticipation. Everybody in the industry was dying to get the opportunity to work with her on that project. She ended up opting for a rather wonky hiring strategy, and the reality was that the launch was okay, and from the second drop onwards it's been quieter. Then came along the comments on sizing issues, etc.

She needs to focus on world-building. it doesn't have to be a show per se, but some kind of presence that will grab people for good. Because you can't survive on nostalgia forever. Especially when you're not that unique anymore.

I wish her well, yet I can't help but wonder if maybe this launch came too late? Look at NG, post-Balenciaga he seriously considered launching his eponymous label. He even mentioned it on a French TV show back in 2016. But now it seems that it's not the case anymore. Perhaps he realised there's so much time that can pass before your brightest days become a fond memory but are not enough to build a business on.

Is it perhaps, very much like what Lola said? She doesn't need buzz or hype or noise to move the product. She has her core customer that isn't necessarily interested in any of that. They know where to find her and will seek out the outlets in which they can purchase in person. Simple as that.

I think we have become so accustomed to everything being so loud and accessible, in a way, that the barometer of success has been skewed in our minds.

 

[Thefrenchy]

^ I guess it's a matter of perspective, but every new brand needs buzz to move their product. Especially considering her proposal is very trend/fashion-oriented.

Regarding her core customer, I will quote what's just been said before your post by J02215 because I wholeheartedly agree with them:

They are not really the intellectual independent taste-makers the media makes them out to be, nor are they loyal her; but simply hypebeasts who are mainly interested in crafting an image of “superior tastes”.

 

[tourbillions]

I just saw the news that Bruno Sialelli will be the head of Design RTW, interesting to see they are still expanding the brands.
I think they should invest a better person for marketing. They need a good marketing strategy, because staying anoymous doesn't really work.
You can be niche, but at least let poeple try and feel the clothes. They look good on models, but it's a different story on human and the price !!!
I know there's lots of rich people, but are they really buying your stuffs ??

i hope he is being trained to eventually head a lvmh house. From what I saw in his Lanvin, he has what it takes as long as the suits fully back his vision. I bet he can do celine or loewe.

 

[Lola701]

^ I guess it's a matter of perspective, but every new brand needs buzz to move their product. Especially considering her proposal is very trend/fashion-oriented.

Regarding her core customer, I will quote what's just been said before your post by J02215 because I wholeheartedly agree with them:

But we all agree and know that this new form of minimalism or post-modern minimalism is very her. The people who goes to Phoebe Philo for some stuff goes there because she has an authority over that style/aesthetic.

I fell like the conversation with Phoebe is different because people expect her to be a driving force of fashion again and it may not be the case anymore.

I always use the example of Azzedine because I don’t believe that Phoebe Philo created her brand to build an empire. And I think there’s no benchmark in creating your brand as an established designer nowadays.

Tom Ford has created an ambitious brand from the moment he left Gucci/YSL. In a way that’s what people expect from an established designer but that requires a lot of investment.

When Azzedine was bought by Prada. He came back, had 2 official shows and that’s it. He never advertised, benefitted from the support of his editors friends and some famous clients. And they developed the accessories. Azzedine never made « buzz ». Fashion people and the right people knew where to find it.

Maybe that’s the approach Phoebe is going for.

Maybe I’m super indulgent towards her but I don’t feel like she created her own brand as a revenge. Tom Ford created his brand as a revenge and what he has managed to do in 20 years is impressive but I’m not sure Phoebe is in that mind set.

 

[PDFSD]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but from a social psych perspective, I’ve always wondered if the so-called philophiles are simply the female, more refined version of hypebeasts, or the fashion version of indie music snobs. They are not really the intellectual independent taste-makers the media makes them out to be, nor are they loyal her; but simply hypebeasts who are mainly interested in crafting an image of “superior tastes”.

At the moment, this “superior” brand is the row….but who knows how long it will last before they move on again.

agree on everything but that the row is superior its tiny as hell and just being hyped with the 24 hrs news cycle don't make it a poer house yet nor superior because their designs are still not distinctive enough and upper guilty it's not above hermes per example for leather goods.

this all coming from a person that likes the olsens growth since full house years to now they made smart moves steadily, but i like to be objective even if i want them to win just like Victoria Beckham or even Ye ...love an outsider making it big in an industry that looks down upon them :-)

 

[PDFSD]

But we all agree and know that this new form of minimalism or post-modern minimalism is very her. The people who goes to Phoebe Philo for some stuff goes there because she has an authority over that style/aesthetic.

I fell like the conversation with Phoebe is different because people expect her to be a driving force of fashion again and it may not be the case anymore.

I always use the example of Azzedine because I don’t believe that Phoebe Philo created her brand to build an empire. And I think there’s no benchmark in creating your brand as an established designer nowadays.

Tom Ford has created an ambitious brand from the moment he left Gucci/YSL. In a way that’s what people expect from an established designer but that requires a lot of investment.

When Azzedine was bought by Prada. He came back, had 2 official shows and that’s it. He never advertised, benefitted from the support of his editors friends and some famous clients. And they developed the accessories. Azzedine never made « buzz ». Fashion people and the right people knew where to find it.

Maybe that’s the approach Phoebe is going for.

Maybe I’m super indulgent towards her but I don’t feel like she created her own brand as a revenge. Tom Ford created his brand as a revenge and what he has managed to do in 20 years is impressive but I’m not sure Phoebe is in that mind set.

100000 % agree ....especially as TF is an american so the mind set is bigger than live approach ...while phoebe is french/brit where she would find being more demure an more chic and balanced approach to life.

even while she is searching for the what makes sense to her both creatively and business wise i think her inner rebel approach is i do it may way and not what people expect or want perse from me.

at chloe she spoke also of doing opposite of what the business men wanted from her etc to prank/spice things up ....its a very anarchic british thing to f.. things up when they are to serious

 

[j02215]

agree on everything but that the row is superior its tiny as hell and just being hyped with the 24 hrs news cycle don't make it a poer house yet nor superior because their designs are still not distinctive enough and upper guilty it's not above hermes per example for leather goods.

You and I agree lol.. I don’t mean that the row is superior objectively, but that it is “superior” (quote/unquote for sarcasm) in the eyes of these hype-centric consumers. I do hope the row defy the odds though!

 

[fruitdots]

I genuinely don't think that the buyer here is any sort of woman "hype beast," or at least not as a majority. I think Phoebe Philo's customer base is almost exactly who she has targeted: a woman in her 40s-50s who is also purchasing Hermes, Bottega, Hedi's Celine, etc. Many of the items selling out—the car coat, the jeans, the tie neck shirt—are modest in appearance and signify very little to anyone beyond the wearer.

Realistically, I think she now has a significant market foothold without needing to devote huge resources to marketing, "world-building," hype, etc. The drive bag is taking off as her first big Phoebe Philo bag: it has sold out in the purple/lilac, and I imagine it will sell out again when she releases another seasonal colour. All she needs to do at this point is maintain steady sales/growth, and to refine the distribution model. People are faulting her for not behaving like a larger brand, but she doesn't bear the same burdens as those brands—she doesn't need massive growth each season, she doesn't need to maintain expensive retail locations, she doesn't need global ad campaigns. It's a different playing field.

 

[HigthaVandah]

But is she picking up new customers? I don't know the answer to that, but on the strength of the clothes, she could be.

 

[Thefrenchy]

For what it's worth - repeating, for what it's worth, so I'm not making a generalisation on her entire customer base - her customers who have been posting their PP purchase on social media are faaaaaar away from the Rive Gauche intellectuelle that people picture when they think of her customer...

 

[fruitdots]

For what it's worth - repeating, for what it's worth, so I'm not making a generalisation on her entire customer base - her customers who have been posting their PP purchase on social media are faaaaaar away from the Rive Gauche intellectuelle that people picture when they think of her customer...

Well that's exactly it: on social media. I'm not convinced that online posters are reflective of the PP client-base, so making judgements about the brand's health or success based on that marginal data-set seems dubious to me. Are we judging Hermès based on the social media posts of the nouveau riche, as they angle for their first Birkin?

 

[PDFSD]

For what it's worth - repeating, for what it's worth, so I'm not making a generalisation on her entire customer base - her customers who have been posting their PP purchase on social media are faaaaaar away from the Rive Gauche intellectuelle that people picture when they think of her customer...

1000000 % true same what happened to modern art already and rare modern furniture its pop to be intellectual .....trends are capitalizing on every niche that there is and its not the first time in history

because its all about how cultured you look on social media or to your new rich friends outdoing each other with purchase choices the row succes is a byproduct of this per example because it felt like you had to know about early to be part of the few where as phoebe is already a bigger name its less of the discovery so the scarcity is via price and somewhat access at first to have same manufactured feeling of discovery of the few

those in the know if you know hypebeast culture no different or gate keeping that is part if all the mentioned above access to knowledge (the new or forgotten doesn't matter )

 

[KilltheLook]

I'm sure she did pick up new customers because there's a new generation of successful women who are now entering their 40s who missed her first rodeo at Celine. They now have disposable income and are ready to buy the "original look" now that she's back. And honestly, her offers are very conservation and timeless. The styling on the website is just raw and "rude".

 

[Thefrenchy]

Well that's exactly it: on social media. I'm not convinced that online posters are reflective of the PP client-base, so making judgements about the brand's health or success based on that marginal data-set seems dubious to me. Are we judging Hermès based on the social media posts of the nouveau riche, as they angle for their first Birkin?

I for one am not, hence why I made that precision within my comment!

On the contrary, I will forever say that the majority of current Hermes customers is absolutely what you're seeing on social media. That hill, I'll die on One just has to spend time at an Hermes store anywhere around the world to see it.

 

[PDFSD]

I genuinely don't think that the buyer here is any sort of woman "hype beast," or at least not as a majority. I think Phoebe Philo's customer base is almost exactly who she has targeted: a woman in her 40s-50s who is also purchasing Hermes, Bottega, Hedi's Celine, etc. Many of the items selling out—the car coat, the jeans, the tie neck shirt—are modest in appearance and signify very little to anyone beyond the wearer.

Realistically, I think she now has a significant market foothold without needing to devote huge resources to marketing, "world-building," hype, etc. The drive bag is taking off as her first big Phoebe Philo bag: it has sold out in the purple/lilac, and I imagine it will sell out again when she releases another seasonal colour. All she needs to do at this point is maintain steady sales/growth, and to refine the distribution model. People are faulting her for not behaving like a larger brand, but she doesn't bear the same burdens as those brands—she doesn't need massive growth each season, she doesn't need to maintain expensive retail locations, she doesn't need global ad campaigns. It's a different playing field.

but i think your missing the part that even these ....modest in appearance and signify very little to anyone beyond the wearer .....generally a luxury myth idea, the optics of wearing her brand does have higher impact once these ladies are in their circles because they know that others know its phoebe or if not are asked who its from and it feeds into the status of a person always in the know !!!! especially in a smaller circles can be even totally offline wealthy person.

all social gathering is a stand off of this type of social status currency on different levels of taste and concealing importance to it or bashfully flaunting it.

all these high luxury brands ad high fashion play in part in it.

one thing wealth and discreet is like oil and water many try to mix it but it always end up showing itself clearly with people knowledgeable on the any given subject.

they always ending up showing it off even if silently its just another level of showing off , nature does it as well we humans are not excluded from this parade however subtitle to the outsider


for me its no different then the real margiela days with the 4 white stitches at the back of knitwear

 

[PDFSD]

I for one am not, hence why I made that precision within my comment!

On the contrary, I will forever say that the majority of current Hermes customers is absolutely what you're seeing on social media. That hill, I'll die on One just has to spend time at an Hermes store anywhere around the world to see it.

i have friends at hermes they know and don't care about who buys it :-) they want people to be hooked on the brand and be collecting things as pokemon cards

often in meetings at many houses you speak of gamification of the customer's journey , delayed gratification, and making clients into collectors by having them go through a path that basically is for finding ways to keep them spending and interested to win the game.

the filter is not good or bad taste or being chic for most part it's the: how many things & how long can you keep spending to be on the journey with us to make you into a collector of the goods of the house.

Ferrari is same you need to be able to show you can and are willing to buy more cars and wait years for them, if they find out you sold a new car your blacklisted even. that's why they are the most profitable of the luxury cars even if they can be often the most tacky of the bunch driving up to a restaurant or hotel.

Patek & AP, VC, Rolex in watches do same the most wanted products are not directly available if you cant start buying and showing loyalty they don't care for most part who you are they want to make collectors out of clients.

Patek is most adamant in this they don't want people to get just one watch at 40 K steel watch starting price on average you need to work your way up for years to get the one watch you actually do love.

People get sensitive because they equal spending lots of money with respect & higher intellect/status buying Hermes or a Ferrari or Patek watch or even phoebe silent luxury coat.

 

[fruitdots]

i have friends at hermes they know and don't care about who buys it :-) they want people to be hooked on the brand and be collecting things as pokemon cards

often in meetings at many houses you speak of gamification of the customer's journey , delayed gratification, and making clients into collectors by having them go through a path that basically is for finding ways to keep them spending and interested to win the game.

the filter is not good or bad taste or being chic for most part it's the: how many things & how long can you keep spending to be on the journey with us to make you into a collector of the goods of the house.

Ferrari is same you need to be able to show you can and are willing to buy more cars and wait years for them, if they find out you sold a new car your blacklisted even. that's why they are the most profitable of the luxury cars even if they can be often the most tacky of the bunch driving up to a restaurant or hotel.

Patek & AP, VC, Rolex in watches do same the most wanted products are not directly available if you cant start buying and showing loyalty they don't care for most part who you are they want to make collectors out of clients.

Patek is most adamant in this they don't want people to get just one watch at 40 K steel watch starting price on average you need to work your way up for years to get the one watch you actually do love.

People get sensitive because they equal spending lots of money with respect & higher intellect/status buying Hermes or a Ferrari or Patek watch or even phoebe silent luxury coat.

Sure, but in those cases the important clients are those who make it through the labyrinth of gamified purchasing, not those who get stuck in it. It's a way to maintain artificial exclusivity so that the noveau-riche YouTuber isn't the representative Hermès/Patek/Ferrari buyer.

 

[fruitdots]

but i think your missing the part that even these ....modest in appearance and signify very little to anyone beyond the wearer .....generally a luxury myth idea, the optics of wearing her brand does have higher impact once these ladies are in their circles because they know that others know its phoebe or if not are asked who its from and it feeds into the status of a person always in the know !!!! especially in a smaller circles can be even totally offline wealthy person.

all social gathering is a stand off of this type of social status currency on different levels of taste and concealing importance to it or bashfully flaunting it.

all these high luxury brands ad high fashion play in part in it.

one thing wealth and discreet is like oil and water many try to mix it but it always end up showing itself clearly with people knowledgeable on the any given subject.

they always ending up showing it off even if silently its just another level of showing off , nature does it as well we humans are not excluded from this parade however subtitle to the outsider


for me its no different then the real margiela days with the 4 white stitches at the back of knitwear

I just disagree that PP's current model is based on this sort of cultural capital, and I think everyone is expecting her to fail because they're misreading her strategy. The women I know who are buying her pieces at this point in time are in tech, finance, real estate, law, even academia. They are not, on a daily basis, in circles where their average colleague or social contact is able to identify their clothing as Phoebe Philo. They are buying the clothing because it is reliable, generally timeless, made of high quality material, and functional in the office and at home. They are happy to eat the cost, and to shop at her price-point, because they have the expendable income. You might say it's the difference between the petit and the haute bourgeois—perhaps the former have flocked towards the the new doodle top, hoping it will be recognized, but I'm not convinced that that is the sort of buyer who is powering sales here.

 

[Monsieur Cristobal]

I'm sure she did pick up new customers because there's a new generation of successful women who are now entering their 40s who missed her first rodeo at Celine. They now have disposable income and are ready to buy the "original look" now that she's back. And honestly, her offers are very conservation and timeless. The styling on the website is just raw and "rude".

I, on the contrary, think that PP is catering to her old CÉLINE clientele, and that a change in the strategy will be needed in the mid-term, if she wants to grow.
The whole project is interesting because she is avant-garde in the distribution (no brick-and-mortar stores) but at the same time is... nostalgic.
"To finally get the original" might make sense for an old Céline customer; for a thirty-something woman who buys Toteme, I doubt it.

Very accurate comment PDFSD about how high luxury works; I think fashion is a little bit different though, because the aura of a house can be damaged in a couple of years (cf. Gucci). It is not a solid value, almost by definition, because fashion is change.
Their story telling about being founded in 1913 or 1917 is a way to convince you that the jacket you are purchasing won't look passé three years later (it actually will).
The only house that you can really compare with Patek, Cartier, Rolex, Ferrari... is Hermès, and that by staying always a little outside of fashion.

 

[PDFSD]

I just disagree that PP's current model is based on this sort of cultural capital, and I think everyone is expecting her to fail because they're misreading her strategy. The women I know who are buying her pieces at this point in time are in tech, finance, real estate, law, even academia. They are are not, on a daily basis, in circles where their average colleague or social contact is able to identify their clothing as Phoebe Philo. They are buying the clothing because it is reliable, generally timeless, made of high quality material, and functional in the office and at home. They are happy to eat the cost, and to shop at her price-point, because they have the expendable income. You might say it's the difference between the petit and the haute bourgeois—perhaps the former have flocked towards the the new doodle top, hoping it will be recognized, but I'm not convinced that that is the sort of buyer who is powering sales here.

She did for a fact visit palace skateboard office in London prior to the launching her brand as part of research into various ways of doing business.

this i say because Phoebe is not precious about allot of things her fans try to make her to be her ways of talking and thinking are crude and practical even its her natural way of being.

i am a fan i love to see her win and i was tempted to even buy even spending 8k on a tote bag i don't need but the one thing i wanted the most was sold out and never replaced

i deal myself with people in tech, finance, real estate, law, they are all not immune to showing off in subtle ways aswell or cultural capital like i said before i know there is this ideal of buying expensive things for yourself or some sort of high luxury discreteness, but for big percentage it's just part of the myth of luxury just by the fact of pricing that is 90% only based on myth making this is even for hermes.

cost and worth in luxury is correlated to logic
just by knowing her brand already you need to have some sort of culture or interest to be different and stand out even if its in a subtle way its still loud.