Referencing vs. Plagiarism Where is the line drawn?

[chloehandbags]

To come up with the design of a bag is rather easy

Depends on the bag.

A lot of bag designs are ugly, boring, disproportionate, incohesive, conventional and/or very generic; but not all are.

To design a bag that is beautiful, inventive, desirable and yet, still extemely functional, may well not be so easy.

 

[brooksie]

I think, all too often, when a designer is called-out for plagiarism, on here; it is actually not true plagiarism, as such, but just a following of the zeitgeist (via trend forecasts, or not).

Although I'm sure plagiarism does exist, I think a lot of accusations of it are rather (or very) unfair.

Based on what I see, most of the people who accuse designer X of ripping off designer Y from two seasons ago, have very little fashion history under their belt! Many times the thinking is that designer X is so original and so unique that everyone else must be streets behind.

One of my favorite examples ever was the recent Vionnet revival. Someone actually had the nerve to say that was a rip off of NG's Balenciaga. Apparently they were NOT familiar w/ either Madame Vionnet's style or the era in which she was designing, but that collection was a rather faithful resurfacing of her 20s-30s aesthetic.

It's very easy to lob "copy cat" when your fashion knowledge is limited to about 2004-present.

 

[Caswell]

There was an interesting article recently about how Zara has done a lot of "referencing" of Prada's S/S 2011 collection, which is understandable considering how popular it is.

http://fashionista.com/2011/04/adve...aras-sweet-on-prada-entire-spring-collection/

 

[purplethistle]

^ Interesting article.

I think Zara did go a little too far. The only picture that I wouldn't have considered plagiarism is the one with the scarves, only because the design is just so basic its probably a staple item in millions of wardrobes. But as a whole and given the season that the Prada collection was for this is just shameless, they didn't even try to use some other colours, which for some pieces would have made me turn a blind eye.

 

[agee]

Question: if they react at all, don't designers tend to call foul when another major designer copies them than if a mass market retailer does?

To me fashion can't become fashion unless copying / appropriating / referencing occurs and more food is taken out of a designers mouth (metaphorically speaking) when another luxury designer copies them than if a mass market retailer does, correct?

 

[mikeijames]

^i think most of the friction comes when down market brands copy the higher end ready-to-wear houses. design houses like marc jacobs and prada know they have enough of a built in client base that even if someone else appropriates their work, it won't lure away their core customer.

 

[agee]

I agree that that is true about larger houses like Prada, Chanel, Dior, Gucci and others but is that true with smaller houses like Chrstopher Kane, Viktor & Rolf, Haider Ackermann, Balmain, Yamamoto, McQueen, Alaia, Rodarte and others? Would a small luxury designer really be OK with larger luxury designers with their greater name recognition, more marketing funds, possibly lower production costs, broader distribution channels and relationships with editors appropriating their ideas?

Do they really have that much confidence in their core customer base's loyalty? and even if their core customers are loyal, would they not also like the chance to expand their customer base, name recognition and credibility by being the only luxury designer offering that design element, textile or silhouette - at least for a few seasons?

 

[daisychein]

Although it would be absolutely lovely to believe that designers only design to express themselves, or to materialise what only their imaginations can conjure and what not - we also need to remember that a large part of their purpose is to SELL. Obviously if a trend from another house sells well, they would want to adapt that trend into their own collection. I do believe that they shouldn't be so blatant with their adaptations and at least add something to make it belong more to their house rather than the trend, but how many ways could there possibly be to add a trend into your collection, whilst keeping the clothing wearable AND appealing to current buyers? For example, Spring 2011 - a trend I noticed was white from head to toe. Alexander Wang featured an all white ensemble (white pants, white top), as did Bottega Veneta, as did Christian Cota. Now you tell me - how many possible ways is there to change an all-white ensemble and make it look different from the rest, while also maintaining it's usability?

I agree with mikeijames who said that stores such as Zara are big time plagiarisers. It's one thing to imitate trends in a collection, but it's a completely different thing to actually copy the whole collection! I understand that they make high end fashion more available to those who can't afford it, but they can at least be more subtle about it!

I've even read a blogpost (here) about Zara actually taking a fashion blogger's picture without her consent, and plastering it all over their t-shirts. They don't stop at taking collections or themes, but even take popular fashion bloggers' personal pictures without their consent!

 

[agee]

I think that we have to bear in mind that "inspiration" for a collection can come from a trend report, so when you see several houses using the same color palette, textile, silhouette within a season or over a season or two, then that is usually at play.

Zara is a retailer and not a designer and they wholesale copied some of Miuccia Prada's SS 2011 designs because, unlike other stuff she and other designers have sent down runways, the clothes were wearable and accessible, now if they are going around and calling these items, Prata or Paarda, that is an issue. Affluent people are not the only ones who set the trends and I would not be surprised if the retailers who already carry Prada may increase their orders based on Zara's copying of Prada. Most importantly, this solidifies Miuccia Prada's position as a directional designer.

Let's play this out using Louis Vuitton as an example, because quite a few people observed common themes in their FW 2011 collection with other recent and contemporaneous collections, although bear in mind that that may be the trend report phenomenon. OK, if I am a small to mid-size designer and I send something down the runway that Zara copies, as has been stated they are pretty blatant with their copying so the connection is going to be obvious, some smart blogger is going to pick that up and do a sneering post about it, right? That is just increased name recognition, and if the copying is covered enough and buzzed about, I would be willing to bet that the next season there will be more editors and more important editors at the next show, which increases the odds of being featured in an ed or them doing a blurb about the collection /designer and hopefully, eventually increased interest from buyers. Actually, the Zara copying may have directly led to increased interest from the get go. Didn't this to some extent happen when Phoebe Philo was at Chloe?

Now if Louis Vuitton, the largest design house within the largest conglomerate in fashion, appropriates the ideas of another designer, it will get noticed and discussed in the blogosphere, particularly on sites like this but will it get picked up by the mainstream fashion press given who is buttering their bread? Will the ire over the similarities be able to transcend the because Naomi, Kate and a slew of other model faves walked the show and the and because JLo may be doing the campaign? When you pick up a Vogue, whose ads do you see on the first few pages and therefore which design houses do you think have a better shot at being editorialized? Therefore a small-to-mid-size designer may benefit more from Zara appropriating its designs than a larger designer who caters to the same market, and yet it has considerably more resources, connections and recognition.

What Zara did to the blogger was not right, and if she has grounds for legal action, she should sue, did she? I don't condone what Zara did but that did get a decent amount of press / blog / message board coverage and I betcha it raised her profile considerably, that does not make it right but I am just saying that there is a silver cloud. This is kinda the point that I am making, if that photo was considered a good representation of cool, then there is a chance that a savvy blogger with a bigger following will appropriate the vibe into their own street style / 'look at me' images, and since some bloggers these days get invited to fashion shows and are even consulted by muckety-mucks in the fashion industry, there is an incentive for them to try to appear leading edge, and if the inspiration is not coming from within, they may look elsewhere, including lesser known bloggers.

* Although I don't think that this is not a small blog, but I don't think that it is one of the biggies either.

 

[agee]

ETA to my previous post:
I don't want to come off as being sanguine about a designer's creative output being appropriated, especially when the appropriation happens without attribution. However it does happen, and it has to happen in order for there to be dynamism when it comes to what is worn on people's backs, but I tend to favor the scenario where the little guy is not getting screwed and is ideally benefiting. I follow the fashion industry intermittently, so I know stuff but there are gaps, but I don't recall there being a lot of angst on the part of designers having their ideas appropriated by large retailers, now there is a lot of over their actual labels being knocked off, where someone actually bootlegs / knocks off the label, i.e., copies the design, logo and label and tries to represent an item as being made by the luxury retailer, but that is a different can of worms.


Correcting a goofy mistake from previous post:

there is a silver cloud

shoud be "there is a silver lining."

 

[mikeijames]

if only the blogosphere had matured to the point where such appropriates reaped such ready benefits for those small-to-midsize design houses. let's not kid ourselves about the blogosphere, however. the big named designers capture the attention -- rightly or wrongly -- of the fashion crowd and the blogosphere writ large. therefore, it's only those houses about which such blog posts get written about. it's easy to notice when zara rips prada or vuitton because all of us in the blogosphere can recognize a current season vuitton or prada look on sight pretty quickly. but let us try to conjure in our minds the latest limi feu collection or the latest bibhu mohapatra offering. and what stings for many of these designers comes when the untrained eye looks at some of these newer designers work, they will recoil with criticisms like "this looks like zara" or "i see this stuff at forever 21" never knowing that the original inspiration point came from the actual creative minds of the designers they criticize.

what's further disheartening -- although one could wax philisophical about all of the smoke and mirrors in the modern world -- remains that many mainstream retail outlets will literally copy. not get "inspired by" not "reference" but literally send their buyers out to boutiques to purchase one size run of hot items to have them literally unstitched so that patterns can get made so that they can reproduce them in bulk in third world sweatshops.

i think it undermines the entire enterprise of fashion. and it's not really the bigger houses that mind -- i mean, russian billionaires will continue to shop vuitton no matter what -- but it's the little guys who barely have a foothold who see their designs copied when they're trying to make a splash in the marketplace. and then, they have to find themselves "partnering" with some of the very firms in "collaborations" so that they can get a paycheck.

 

[HeatherAnne]

The similarities between these two editorials made me ill. Shame on the entire "Sultry" editorial team.

Sultry

Photography by Yoo Sun
Art Direction by Audie Umali
Styling by Rebecca Palmer
Hair by Lydia O’Carroll @ Kate Ryan
Makeup by Junko Kioka
Set Design by Courtnay Cain Saunders
Model(s) Nicola Haffmans @ Silent & Pauline van der Cruysse @ Marilyn Model Mgmt



theones2watch

which is ripping off

“The Dunes”
Photo: Steven Meisel




scannedbydiciassette from Vogue Italia December 2008

 

[purplethistle]

I generally let editorials slide a bit since there are only so many things a model or photographer can do. The model is limited to the emotions they can evoke and have interpreted correctly, even if they were a contortionist they can only do so many poses. The photographer can only do so much with all sorts of other variables. There are also only so many locations/themes for the photo shoot. In many eds the difference only comes in the clothes used.

Probably the only time I get hung up about copying is if the ed was based something that happened in society and was a bit controversial, telling of the times etc. eg if a second magazine had done let say VI's take on the oil spill last year then they would've copped a lot from me.

 

[HeatherAnne]

Thanks for your feedback purplethistle, enjoyed hearing your thoughts.

This referencing issue has really started irritating me lately. I feel like we are being bombarded with work which all claim the same influences. Few examples, how many "And God Created Woman", "The Virgin Suicides", and "Taxi Driver" references have we seen in the last few years. I remember being so excited when this Meisel editorial came out and it was a homage to "Suna No Onna", finally something unique that nobody's ever done before!

And now, here we are, with this editorial where there is just way too much similitude to Meisel's take on the film. I mean they practically positioned the girls in the same positions (hands above head, elbows on display), the girls wear those same sulky expressions, etc. I don't have a problem with them taking on the same film, but they certainly could have presented their own spin on it.

With so many different forms of art and elements in the everyday to be inspired by, I find it a little lame that some of these supposed creative minds in the fashion industry can't come up with something fresh and unique.

 

[purplethistle]

With so many different forms of art and elements in the everyday to be inspired by, I find it a little lame that some of these supposed creative minds in the fashion industry can't come up with something fresh and unique.

I find this a really poignant statement. I wouldn't consider myself a naturally creative person, but when I see or hear something that's supposed to be creative and its not, since they're only referencing, I find myself very quickly racking my brains on what twist I would brought to the table. I guess that could be a definition of being inspired even if its out of criticism.

For me criticism is actually a great starting point since it makes me think about what messages I receiving and why I don't like them and what would I preferably like. Sometimes I manage to think of something new that is only done years latter by actually companies. My lame examples: I came up with the idea of a cell phone that would have a full qwerty keyboard slide out from under the screen and also came up with my ideal front load washer where the door would be facing me at about 45 degrees from the floor (this is how my creativity works). Both ideas came before 2000 so they hadn't been done yet but since then have been made and I wasn't even ten. It only required a small evaluation on my behalf and thinking what would make things better.

But it seems like the 'creative people aren't able to do that or simply too lazy. Too lazy to turn a reference point into a source of inspiration that allows them to go above and beyond whatever the other artist came up with. Sure most things require a bit of mulling but there are so many things to be referenced, if that's their style, they should mull over multiple things at the same time.

 

[EnVogueLove]

One memeber told me that I should post this here so....
Josephine Skriver

Yana Sotnikova

I found even more models in similar test shots.I am not telling that this photographer is bad cause some of his work is great, but I find it really boring and not creative using different models in same type of test shots.

source:ryankalivretenosphotography.tumblr.com

 

[FelipeV]

It is certainly true that in the fashion world everybody copied to everybody, the problem is when you lose your ethics and start to copy the ideas, not just the clothes but the concept in general. I was shocked to see these images some time ago (Right Balmain A/W 2010, Left Zara A/W 2010)

The hair, the poses, the complete looks...

Balmain pictures are from http://modeman.feber.se/ and Zara pictures are from zara.com

 

[HeatherAnne]

That is shocking Felipe, and disturbing...

I mean we all know Zara is famous for knocking off brands, changing an element or two slightly on a piece to keep it from being a counterfeit, but now they're even knocking off ad campaigns?! Wow.

 

[Squizree]

On one hand "plagiarism" is irritating, intolerable and even nerve racking. Meanwhile, on the other hand it's flattering and motivating. So I guess it has its good points. Fast fashion's ridiculous knack for imitating (case in point: Zara from the previous post) is almost shameful, but it has motivated many designers to stretch beyond and create something "inimitable".

 

[silk skin paws]

In the Zara photos the copying transcends just clothing even the models poses were similar, the muted/ blank background (except they used some red orange color) and the model's pompadour.

The line often blurs between referencing and plagiarism in fashion for some reason and not totally sure why the lines are blurred. Musicians use to have the same problem. An artist or band would sample or 'steal' a beat or riff. This was popular during the 80's and early 90's although it still persist more than often an artist would credit the originator or sampled work.

I think it's much easier to take an idea from another designer without giving much credit or getting in trouble for it because there's a consumer demand for low or cheaper prices and knockoffs unlike other types of art.

Artistically it's nearly impossible for ideas to overlap and sometimes referencing happens without the designer or creator realizing it.