Critiquing the collections – Is there a method to the madness?

[Salvatore]

Exactly. You automatically think "How's that going to look on me?"
Lighting, styling, music won't matter when you put it on in the shop.

But the lighting, styling, and music will get you to the shop if it's good enough . It's especially good for those new buyers that need the extra push to want to buy something .

 

[Dkammern]

interesting topic!!!
i personally look at collections (simultaneously) in two very different ways.
one, is how the collection relates to the rest that is going on at the other labels, what's the mood of the moment, what's going on in the rest of the world (not just fashion). is it new trends? is it same old? zeitgeist proof we could say.
two, and this is in general a lot more important to me than the first pov, is what the collection means for the house it represents. is it true to itself? is it repetitive? a new direction? is it consistent? is it coherent? to sum it up (and i think we've discussed this in other threads before) the one key question to ask is, were we do publish a retrospective book on the career of the designer, would any of this be in it?
in a way, it's like asking if the efforts put into the collection were actually worth something more than the mere ephemerality of the show. are they taking the company one step further, or just keeping it alive for the sake of surviving one more season?

we also have to take into account those who speak from the retail/shopper perspective. it's not necessearily the same as the "wearable" argument because many of these brands -- from lanvin to proenza schouler to balmain to prada -- don't always fit that bill, but they all have found a way to sell it anyway. fashion, at the end of the day, remains a business.

as i was going through the first post, i couldnt help trying to locate your infamous arguments on "what son-on-an-oligarch buys plain balmain tees for $5k" in the "most overprized designer thread", and then i read your post and realized how, poor mikeijames, you had been left aside!
not very sensible of the thread's creator, don't you think?

 

[knockturnal]

I like what I like, and I trust my instincts.
People may disagree with my "taste" but that is irrelevent to me. To each their own.
It's not very complicated in my opinion.

 

[ultramarine]

I think that the fact of the "designers aesthetic" is spot on .. even on the reality tv shows where tyhey supposedly launch nwe designers the No. 1 critique is whether the designer had (or lacked of) a point of view ..
The amount of money invested on a show doesnt exactly mean that something will sell or get positive reviews .. I mean I love how Dries doesnt do tv ads or commercials and his pieces stand alone .. but Ill have to admit that just like McQueen there's a slight sense or escapism and romance which is intricately sewn into the quality and cut of the collection pieces ...

I think one of the designers biggest enemies can be the styling ... it shud be carefully edited ... and on top of that theres what we see on the catwalk versus what is sold as a collection (ie Gareth Pugh).

 

[Escale Cherie II]

I think people should remember that fashion as a whole is 2 equal parts: 1 part art and 1 part business. A lot of people seem to lean towards 1 side when reviewing all collections, though it doesn't bother me so much as seeing people do 3-or-less worded responses like "This is brilliant" or "I hate it" and don't elaborate. I mean, I'm not asking for to be a huge post, but come on. I guess it also doesn't bother me because I'm also guilty of leaning toward 1 part when reviewing a collection, and I think it depends on the designer's style.

I expect to see artsy or crazy stuff at Alexander McQueen, wearability at Max Mara, both at Lanvin, either at Versace, or don't know what to expect at Marc Jacobs. Additionally, personal preferences come too. I am not a Rick Owens girl, for example, I don't like all his leather and tough structure, and I don't really visit his threads. Yet I think he's one of the best at the type of clothes he designs, even if he never personally wows me like Karl Lagerfeld, for example. Still, I appreciate the diversity he adds to the business, even if I don't critique him, because I don't see myself as someone to analyze his work as I'm not entirely familiar.

Shows are very important to me, maybe it's because the entertainment industry is in my life. I think they really help tie everything together and can be like the icing on the cake. All the elements-clothes, stage/runway, lighting, music, models/casting, hair, makeup, etc.-seem so challenging to put all together, making it fascinating and exciting to see for me come together as 1 giant product, just like a movie or live commercial, as others said. In a way, there is some illusion to them, because they're meant to seem like wearing clothes from a certain good show itself will make you look good as the models did on that show. That's the big reason why models get a huge emphasis, I think, because they represent the actual wearers if the clothes. And I agree, clothes do look better in motion just in general. Sometimes at Dior the long evening dresses may look plain on the model standing backstage, but look amazing on the runway when she pushes it and it flows. Plus with the added elements-soundtrack, lighting, hair, makeup,-it can all just be a WOW! experience.

 

[KhaoticKharma]

First of all, I've to say I don't critique the collections here very often because I lack of fashion knowledge and I'm not really good when it comes to using fashion vocabulary in english Considering that, I'm always interested in reading elaborated critiques; even if I disagree with its author.

Two elements matter for me: 1. The cut, the colour palette, the spirit of the collection and 2. Would I wear that (or would I wear that if I was a woman -- when it's womenswear) ? / Would I use that if I ever had to style someone?

This is basically me as well. I mean, I'm a student at a four year liberal arts college; I barely know how to sew a button on a coat. But when I see a runways show, I want it to inspire something in me; I want the design team to be creating a world and atmosphere, a storyline. That's probably why my biggest insults are when I feel like a collection lacks cohesiveness or seems uninspired. Also, as a woman, wearability is a major factor- I can appreciate "art" as much as the next person, but it's that stuff that falls between McQueen claw shoes and Michael Kors pants suits that bother me.

 

[Spike413]

I think the reason a lot of critics seem to respond similarly towards particular designers, besides advertising clout, is that critics have certain expectations of a label. Like with Lanvin you expect to see certain things, you expect a certain kind of look, you expect a certain level of craft. With Prada you expect experimentation and oddness. With Balenciaga you expect innovation, imagination and amazing technique. You can't judge each designer on the same merits because each of their labels stand for different things.

That's pretty much how I try to look at collections as well. I've gotten to a point where how much I may like a label doesn't have a big influence on my opinion of each collection they show. I love Balenciaga as a house but I don't always love the collections Ghesquiere shows and if I don't like it I don't praise it.

The things I look for no matter what designer I'm looking at are; whether or not the collection seems relevant to the label, whether or not I find it interesting and whether or not the results are appealing to me.

I was re-reading this and realized there was a "but" that I left out. There are actually some times when I can find something praiseworthy in a collection that I don't like.

The best example I can think of was Prada F/W 08. At first viewing I was put off by it for the simple reason that I'm just not a big fan of lace, and that's what made up most of the collection. And it wasn't just any lace either, it was huge, overblown guipure...the most extreme kind I've ever seen. But despite the fact that I was close to hating the collection because it simply wasn't to my taste I could still see that it was a strong collection from a creative perspective. I appreciated the thought and work that went into the clothes, and into the concept as well.

You really don't have to like a collection to appreciate it, even though it can be hard to separate yourself from what you like enough to see if something might be good.

 

[Squizree]

It depends who you are in relation to the industry really. Whether you're in the industry (editor, stylist, writer) or outside the industry (consumer, student, hobbyist) makes a HUGE difference because everyone always has a slightly biased view of fashion collections.

But if I was to categorize myself from one of those groups I'd be under "artist" I guess.

The thing I hate/love about my view of fashion is that I have about 2 or 3 designers that I will never accept as "bad designers". Like Donatella Versace for example. Hell will freeze over before I drop her from the #1 Spot, even if she produces rubbish collections (like this season). I know it's very biased and very and extremely unfair but it's like really personal

 

[mademoiselle_]

What I hate most is people making comments on a collection that is absolutely the contrary of their tastes and style YES we've heard houndred times how tacky and sl*tty is Versace, Dior, Dsquared2, Cavalli, Dolce.. and others, comments coming for example: girls who do not wear sexy clothes and they're beloved brands are more "refined" or backwards, goes with whatever style...


And all those models fans groupies.. it's annoying reading about the casting, or how good looks Sasha or oh my god I can't believe Natasha didn't opened...YES we love models, leave the comments to their threads, or yourself and your friends not on a collection thread

 

[Squizree]

What I like about theFashionSpot actually, is that we have sooo many different and opposing opinions and I've kinda established a spot for some of the members as to how they view collections and in which direction and angle they view fashion.

Don't quote me and don't stone me lol but for example mikeijames will always take a very realistic attitude towards collections and will usually mention the possible profit a collection could generate.
Dior_Couture on the other hand kinda strikes me as a guy who will not comment on a collection unless there is true creativity/originality or avant garde elements involved. So he's more focussed on the thought process of fashion.
I also like people like Spike or Reese who have a lot of fashion background and will know a lot of history/knowledge and compare/contrast current collections with past ones. I lack this sometimes and always look for comments from them.
And Scott, for example, seems to be inclined to view fashion from the production/quality/original design angle.

And then cool people like NorthernStar who, like me, knows a brilliant collection when he sees it

I'm not trying to categorize people, because Im in no position to, but I am always very interested in hearing about fashion from those different perspectives, simply because they wrap up the "fashion critique" quite well.

 

[Zann]

First of all, I've to say I don't critique the collections here very often because I lack of fashion knowledge and I'm not really good when it comes to using fashion vocabulary in english Considering that, I'm always interested in reading elaborated critiques; even if I disagree with its author.

This is exactly how I feel yet I speak english I may not even post anything because sometimes the only thing that comes into my mind is "yes that was pretty good" or "ew I don't like this".

Once I started to research designers and their past work, I started to really get a feel for what is going on and how I could express my opinions and critiques. I admit it's a little intimidating. There are a lot of people who analyze collections down to the buttons. I don't want to sound stupid but thanks to spending some time in the VSFS threads, I can handle it.

I do believe sometimes we are all on the same brain wave at one time or another. Some people can express exactly what I am thinking that it's kind of scary.

 

[Coulbourne]

i guess i would have to say i fall into the category of non-conformist mostly because im a struggling designer myself and having my own label i tend to throw my support behind the smaller labels who are trying to make a name for themselves.
this isnt to say that i dont watch the larger houses collections also but i guess im a bit biased too.

also region has alot to do with the way i look and critique clothing also.

 

[irulan]

But why shouldn't it matter?

Fashion is a business. Yes. I accept that and I understand that. But I don't see why it shouldn't be important for designers to present their collections in the best way possible.

I find myself wandering into designer boutiques and department stores often...and I when I have the time, I really take my time to examine individual pieces up close. I have yet to come across an item of designer clothing that is shockingly poorly made. Most designer clothing has hanger appeal, some more than others, of course, but on the whole...these pieces sit well on their own...that's why they cost what they do!

The fashion show is what separates one great collection from another.

But the lighting, styling, and music will get you to the shop if it's good enough. It's especially good for those new buyers that need the extra push to want to buy something .

I think it shows a passion and dedication to the work they produce if fashion designers put a lot of work into their runway presentations and I, like everybody else, enjoy a good show moment greatly. Like, for example, as depicted in your avatar Shalom Harlow being sprayed at McQueen. JPG is one of my favourites as he is a showman. I just don't take the runway show into consideration when I will go on one of my shopping outings. Or when I decide whether I like a collection or not.

 

[iluvjeisa]

^I could personally not pick up anything from the recent Gucci show because of the music. Who wants to be associated with something like that But that was extreme, usually I don't care very much about what the show was like when I purchase something.

 

[Tentacl Ventricl]

Excellent thread idea loladonna.

However, I think you've got two things going on at once that are leading to people replying in a more confusing way than might be ideal and perhaps a missed opportunity. I'll explain:-

On the one hand you've given us this typology of categories of how, as a matter of fact in the here and now, people tend to come at reviewing collections at the moment. Experts, Realists, Artists, Groupies, Non-Conformists. People singing from different songsheets. I think you're implicitly saying that this current state of affairs is the 'madness'. For sure there's a lot of 'noise' out there.

But what I think you're really interested in, as am I, is whether it's possible to establish an objective set of criteria that can form the basis for assessing a collection. What factors does the ideal analysis take into account.

Having the typology has led to many people just describing what they do, what, as a matter of fact, is in their mind when they judge a collection. Nothing wrong with that. It's interesting.

But really I think what you want to explore, and what I think is even more interesting, is a more developmental quest - how can we move toward assessing and writing about collections in a more objective way. How can we do it better. Might there be a list of factors, that we could set out in bullet point form perhaps, that a really convincing assessment of a collection would contain.

The quest is to move beyond the 'madness' and, if it's possible, to establish an ideal 'method'? Not what we do do at present but, if we want to get better at doing it, what should we do.

Probably there wouldn't be one single set of factors that all would agree on but we'd probably learn a lot in the attempt and some degree of consensus may well emerge.

And, whether singularly or collectively, once one has a basket of factors it opens the way to scorecarding collections and creating perhaps more thoughtfully constructed and meaningful top 10s.

A little like Mr Dale's top 40 of models perhaps, the site could construct a top 40 of collections. If everyone addressed their minds to the same set of factors, openly scored each factor, so producing a total figure for each collection in their top 10; then the aggregate of all the scores submitted from each participant could form a collective top 40.

Suggest a bullet point list of criteria of assessment that would feed into the ideal methodology anyone?

 

[mikeijames]

I think people should remember that fashion as a whole is 2 equal parts: 1 part art and 1 part business. A lot of people seem to lean towards 1 side when reviewing all collections, though it doesn't bother me so much as seeing people do 3-or-less worded responses like "This is brilliant" or "I hate it" and don't elaborate. I mean, I'm not asking for to be a huge post, but come on. I guess it also doesn't bother me because I'm also guilty of leaning toward 1 part when reviewing a collection, and I think it depends on the designer's style.

i cannot agree more. i can respect design houses like stella mccartney and donna karan who have the ability who has the ability to parlay their pretty palatable perspectives into gigantic success. i also have the ability to respect houses like threeasfour and giles who have great aesthetic sensibilities that have the potential to thrill even those who thought they've seen everything. it's interesting to watch designers also try to keep a winning balance between those two end goals.

 

[mikeijames]

What I like about theFashionSpot actually, is that we have sooo many different and opposing opinions and I've kinda established a spot for some of the members as to how they view collections and in which direction and angle they view fashion.

Don't quote me and don't stone me lol but for example mikeijames will always take a very realistic attitude towards collections and will usually mention the possible profit a collection could generate.
Dior_Couture on the other hand kinda strikes me as a guy who will not comment on a collection unless there is true creativity/originality or avant garde elements involved. So he's more focussed on the thought process of fashion.
I also like people like Spike or Reese who have a lot of fashion background and will know a lot of history/knowledge and compare/contrast current collections with past ones. I lack this sometimes and always look for comments from them.
And Scott, for example, seems to be inclined to view fashion from the production/quality/original design angle.

And then cool people like NorthernStar who, like me, knows a brilliant collection when he sees it

I'm not trying to categorize people, because Im in no position to, but I am always very interested in hearing about fashion from those different perspectives, simply because they wrap up the "fashion critique" quite well.

i'm flattered to be included in the number and i agree wholly with what you say. as much as i myself espouse one particular point of view, i honestly love to hear people COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM ME and how they react to the same show. in the end, the worst collection is one that does not inspire ANY dialogue at all. love him or hate him: an alexander wang thread will grow just as long as a chanel thread and that's the democracy of the blogosphere.

 

[softgrey]

^Reading the responses I can now see where the thematic shows make sense to sell the clothes to the actual buyers who are present. I guess being a spectator on my computer the runway show isn't as important to me. I'm not going to be tricked by awesome lighting and music into thinking a dress that looks great on a 5"10" 105lb woman is going to flatter me though.

well- neither is a buyer, right???
i mean- if they bought stuff from an emotional point of view- just because they got excited by thte music and lights...
then- they'd pretty much get fired really quickly cause nothing would sell when it got to the stores...
no one is being tricked...
...
especially not the pros...

maybe some people just like putting on a show...
it's another form of creativity and personal expression for the designer..
but it is definitely not necessary for the buyers...

it's more important for the editors though...
because they are not trying to sell the clothes as much- but maybe use them in their own creative way- and a show can really inspire some editors...

 

[Crying Diamonds]

honeycomvchild u're so right for the view we have of women fashion. i also think men are more "reasonnable" when they judge a collection, especially heterosexual...i am hetero and, as a versace seller said, we tend to se fashion more as an utilitary thing, whereas gay are more attracted by the artistic part...at least that's what she noticed. of course it's just a tendance, and i feel interested also in the artistic aspect. but most of time, if think of how i will use a clothes (i mean really expensive clothes) before. this is a thing between realists and experts maybe . but everyone see fashion in his own way

As Creative said, I think this is a massive generalisation for gays. As a gay (but mostly as a male) I always look at extravagantly designed "artistic" statement womenswear and think 'How many times will a woman actually be able to wear that without the novelty wearing off?' It's usually only once. Those sort of pieces, in times of recession, are pretty useless for the recessionista and the practical, everyday wealthy woman and hence, I tend to dislike it.
It is hugely difficult for designers today to create something original, tasteful, quirky, noteable, saleable and most importantly, wearable, and that's what I look out for in a collection.
For example, I do not like Alexander Wang and I do not like Balmain because they are way too trendy. They, to me, are the disposable clothes brands of high fashion - noone is going to wear last seasons hugely trend-orientated clothes now, never mind in a few years time.
Whereas brands like Hermes, Chanel, Marni and MaxMara are going to provide super-luxurious undistated, but quality-assured seperates that people can wear to death, and once they are worn to death, they can return and buy more because the brand will still be in existence, unlike these fleeting trend brands.
I love a collection when it is totally identifiable but utterly wearable and luxurious, not because of how fabulous the makeup and the models are or because pieces will look glorious on Alexa Chung. I think the designers that show that they can design as mentioned are the ones that will be admired and looked to in the future.

 

[loladonna]

well- neither is a buyer, right???
i mean- if they bought stuff from an emotional point of view- just because they got excited by thte music and lights...
then- they'd pretty much get fired really quickly cause nothing would sell when it got to the stores...
no one is being tricked...
...
especially not the pros...

I didn't meant to suggest buyers are stupid enough to purchase based on music and lights. I was speaking more of myself in saying the lights and music don't affect my perception. I was thinking in terms of there needing to be some entertainment factor for people who were flying thousands of miles from all over the world to view the collections. The shows make sense to me in that context.