Tokyo Midtown

[Melisande]

it makes me feel like i could never permanently live in japan, no matter how much i would want to...
and i don't like that...

....why do you think I've moved to Paris?? ...definitely not the reason I'm in France, but definitely the reason I pray never to have to go back permanently. Not a single one of my international-minded girlfriends wants to go back...

...Japan is truly one of the most beautiful cultures in the world...and the sexism isn't even that BAD, you know? In day-to-day life, men are super-respectful of women from my experience, even more than in France. We have equal wages and rights. But there are unhelpful gender-based expectations for both men and women, so if anyone wants options, you'll have to fight for them all the way. And that whole situation definitely worsens once you're married/have kids.

But Softie, it's different for foreigners, they're not under the same scrutiny and expectations as we are, which is why many international-minded foreigners love living in Japan, and are able to enjoy the haven of refinement, civilization, peace and respect that is Japan!

 

[Melisande]

Runner...thank you for that Yuki song...got tears in my eyes.
It's really special.
Yes it's true that line about the trees and the melody that goes with it is transporting.

donnani hanare banare demo
Futari wo tsunagu jumon wa joy
(No matter how far away, joy is the spell that connects you and me)

Shinu made doki doki shitai
(I want to feel my heart beat with passion until I die)

I love those special songs in J-Pop that are a combination of philosophy and nostalgia and love and optimism and tears.

I like My Little Lover as well in that respect, like "Destiny" and "Again".

 

[softgrey]

Japanese women go to great lengths to cover up cleavage, which I personally hate..I like the fresh beauty of open necklines, and it makes me so angry when Japanese women wear these ugly lace camisoles under them, destroying the whole outfit and as if to say their bodies are shameful.

i noticed the covering of the upper torso immediately when i first arrived...
i definitely became aware of how much skin was i was showing...
but then everyone goes to the hot springs and gets completely naked!
something that is basically impossible for me...
so how does that make any sense...?

That said, that picture of Mei and Satsuki on the bike, I don't think any Japanese would be shocked by that because they're small children, hence seen as inherently non-sexual. And I'm pretty sure Nausicaa is wearing leggings, but yeah the color is ambiguous. TBH I never even noticed that Nausicaa was sexualized, until people (in the US mostly) started pointing it out, and I do agree.

yeah- i finally figured out that she was wearing leggings, but that is not initially apparent - which is why i say it is implied nudity...
so- this begs the question-
why didn't you notice it until someone pointed it out>?
because you do agree and you do see it...
but you didn't even notice it at first...
and i noticed it in the very first scenes!
all those shots above are basically opening shots from the film...
are westerners just obsessed with sex so we see it everywhere?
or are we so shielded from it that we are shocked when we see it...?
and why don't the japanese even notice it?
why do we see it differently?- i guess this is what i am so curious about...

with satsuki's red skirt- we see just a tiny hint of her white undies-
now- that could easily have just been shaded in so that it doesn't jump out, but no...it's bright white undies...
it's tiny here, just a peek...but on a giant movie screen, it's much bigger...
there is no way anyone can convince me that it wasn't a deliberate choice by the film makers...
i think that as soon as kids are out of diapers, we start to get squeamish about anything that might sexualize them in any way...
we are very sensitive to this sort of thing...
my reading has taught me about the history of japanese masters and their favourite boys...
so i guess there is a different cultural history...
i'm not saying that japan is full of pedophiles, only that i wonder if there is a different idea of what is age appropriate...
and where those ideas come from...
on both sides...

there is a lot of christianity in the west and a lot of what we believe about sex comes from that....
generally- our laws are based on the 10 commandments-
don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat, etc...
i am only beginning to understand about shinto and buddhism...
but i have seen nothing about sex in them at all...

so, i wonder, where do the japanese get their moral foundations from and what are they?
all the ideas about family honour and "saving face"...
how was that born and what is it based on?
and where/how does sex come into it?

 

[softgrey]

....why do you think I've moved to Paris?? ...definitely not the reason I'm in France, but definitely the reason I pray never to have to go back permanently. Not a single one of my international-minded girlfriends wants to go back...

...Japan is truly one of the most beautiful cultures in the world...and the sexism isn't even that BAD, you know? In day-to-day life, men are super-respectful of women from my experience, even more than in France. We have equal wages and rights. But there are unhelpful gender-based expectations for both men and women, so if anyone wants options, you'll have to fight for them all the way. And that whole situation definitely worsens once you're married/have kids.

But Softie, it's different for foreigners, they're not under the same scrutiny and expectations as we are, which is why many international-minded foreigners love living in Japan, and are able to enjoy the haven of refinement, civilization, peace and respect that is Japan!

of course- it's much worse in other places, but that still doesn't make it ok...
i'm glad to know that i would not be held to the same standards, but i'm still not sure i would be ok if i saw things happening around me that i didn't like...
even if it wasn't happening to me directly...
plus- i have a big mouth...

my real feeling is that japanese people would initially find me entertaining and charming because i am outspoken and loud, but would quickly tire of it and just find me obnoxious or ridiculous or annoying...
or worse, inappropriate...
which would be shameful---and we italians have a thing about pride...
we don't like to be shamed any more than the japanese do...

 

[softgrey]

Runner...thank you for that Yuki song...got tears in my eyes.
It's really special.
Yes it's true that line about the trees and the melody that goes with it is transporting.

donnani hanare banare demo
Futari wo tsunagu jumon wa joy
(No matter how far away, joy is the spell that connects you and me)

Shinu made doki doki shitai
(I want to feel my heart beat with passion until I die)

I love those special songs in J-Pop that are a combination of philosophy and nostalgia and love and optimism and tears.

I like My Little Lover as well in that respect, like "Destiny" and "Again".

thanks for the additional lyrics and for translating them in a way that is very easy to understand- like the article i posted!!!


now i understand why the audience was so excited...
great sentiments...

i watched the vid for Destiny and - happily- there was a word i understand- aishiteru...


it seems that idol groups (akb48) and visual kei bands are what the music programs i watch are trying to export...and girl bands like perfume...
probably because of the high visual impact of them...
i guess the idea is that you will enjoy the visual even if you don't understand the words...makes sense, i guess...

it's too bad though...
i feel like i am missing a lot of stuff...
but it's definitely true that without understanding the lyrics, it's hard to feel anything about the song...
if i were in charge of the programming, i would play the videos of these bands like the ones you guys are talking about with subtitles...
i think it would, literally, change the world...

 

[softgrey]

*just off topic-
i was sitting watching kyary pomyu pomyu with my eurpoean friends and we were fascinated by the style of choreography...
all this hand waving and finger shapes...
we have never seen anything like it anywhere but japan...
then i saw more and more of this as i watched more japanese music programs...
on one program they said that the reason it is so popular is that the fans learn the movements and do them all together in concert...
and even at karaoke with their friends, etc...
OK- i get that...

but then i started watching programs on all the summer festivals in japan...
and i saw the dancing that is done at these...
well-
it's basically the same thing!
it is very obvious to me that the contemporary dance moves are rooted in these festival dances...
of course- in the old dances, they were telling stories...
ie- arms waving to one side= water, hands pointed up= mountain, hand to forehead (like salute)= you are looking far away, etc...
but i am sure the new ones are just for fun...

mystery solved...
...

- so now that i understand it...
it doesn't seem odd at all...
but- oh boy did i think it was strange......

 

[runner]

OMG- i saw a whole program on local mascots...
funassy won the top prize...
...so silly...
it's a program called "cool japan"...
is that shown there?

sorry runner-
i did not remember that band title and i just checked all my cd's and cannot find anything by love tko...
my only reference to that is a famous song by that name...teddy pendergrass song...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV9VuPkIIv4

yeah- i think i get it...
watashi waaaaaaaahhhh...think of me....
it's not just the words...it's the music too...
and there is a little evergreen waving in the corner of the screen behind her...

it's great! sugoi desu ne...
it's so much better to know that...thank you...
without this understanding, i am too distracted by the visuals to get into the song so much...
the whole crowd dancing is very distracting for me...
i don't know if i will ever get used to that completely...
frankly, i want to watch the crowd almost as much as the stage...


hmm-
slightly off topic...
i have been having a very different understanding of evergreens since my japan trip...i saw so many while i was there and now i see that many of japan's mountains are covered with them...the mountains in the snow with all the evergreens make my heart beat faster every time...
they just look like something from a fairy tale to me...
it's so hard to believe the photos i see are not movie sets or paintings...
and i have realized what strong and hearty trees they must be to weather all sorts of conditions, both hot and cold...
and what a huge variety there are, as well...
really cool...
even the bonsai are evergreens...

about nausicaa, i'll gather some pics, but i think that was more of a very short skirt with implied or partial nudity...
the undies might have been totoro...
it's always the very short skirt that ALMOST flies up, but they cut the scene just before it does...so it's titillating and distracting...
you keep waiting for it to blow up and i feel like a couple of times it does and you can see white undies...
whether i can find those exact moments to post here is another matter...
but i will try to find some relevant examples...

also- runner-
i think something you said about yuki is actually relevant to these anime films as well...
maybe they are not as young as they seem to be...
part of what is shocking is that you get the impression that these are all little girls/children...
but maybe nausicaa is actually a bit older and just looks and acts quite young? because i think that would make a difference in my perception...

fyi-
though i understand your point about not wanting to sound negative when positive things are happening, that sounds just a tiny bit like 1984 and double speak where they never said anything negative, as though removing those words would somehow change the facts...

the fact is that i only bring up the issue of sexism because i was confronted with it in a well known and respected work of japanese origin, and just before that, i watched a japanese program on NHK which was a political and business discussion panel about this very topic and the only people who participated were japanese men and women...
the whole entire thing was in japanese...
the women basically said that things are not changing enough because the men are not helping or supporting or cooperating with them to change things...
and that without the support from men, they cannot get policies and issues changed or resolved...

so- i have been trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and not to believe anything i hear until i see it for myself, and now i finally heard it directly from the source and not from some outsiders' point of view and i feel like i have some real information and not just some outsiders' interpretation of the surface of the issue...
these are people who are deeply involved with it...
so they know what the truth is...
i wasn't surprised to hear it...and i'm not angry about it...
i'm just disappointed and i just didn't like it...
it makes me feel like i could never permanently live in japan, no matter how much i would want to...
and i don't like that...

I think that program is not shown in japan.
yes the song love T.K.O. is well known over here too, well among certain kind of music lovers of course, and that is where the band name comes from. doesn't one of the earlier compilations include a song "warned by past romances" by the band ? I could easily be confusing it with something else though.

ahh I didn't notice the little tree in the corner until now, sasuga. and the choreography, her movements, should refer to the evergreen tree waving at you, or the equation of her and the tree just like that album cover above. if the cover had been done in a serious mood or sort of sentimentally, it would have been somewhat embarrassing. so she went silly, funny, or prankish whatever. then that posture. but contrary to the overall tone, there is something poignant at the core.
also she said "will you all dance with me" just before "come on, joy". so the crowd had to dance willy-nilly.

about "a well known and respected work of japanese origin", are you referring to tanizaki's essay?
although it is profusely known because of the catchy title, it's one of his lighthearted essays and what is regarded as crucial part of his works are some of his novels as the fulfilment of his statement at the end of that essay. yes the essay includes controvertial offensive content, but I think it is still important as the archeology of aesthetics. we can still see how some people could have been thinking and feeling back then. many of the senses of values written there, including the good and the bad/inheritable and ignominious, are not any more at least in the younger generations unfortunately and fortunately. the rest is dying, as I said. you know people hardly eat and drink by the flickering candlelight. even good old demons and spirits have been disinfected under the fluorescent lights.


I believe nausica is not a kid. young yes but at least grown/old enough to beat countless adult male soldiers with her own physical power and speed. so pigeon-breasted rather than big breasts. I mean, like conan the barbarian but she is not male nor barbarian. so somewhat streamlined version as a character design. that is how I see nausica. basically my generation all had watched the film those days. my friends, both boys and girls, found her super cool and attractive. princess, leader, warrior, and explorer. certainly we didn't find her sexy. definitely the impression of inverted triangular shape (逆三角) was stronger than that of big breasts.
thank you for all the screenshots, I see how you find her look schocking. probably they should have selected some other color for what seem like riding pants. maybe they meant tan but it was too similar to the color of her skin. but then if the color had been obviously whitish, it could have been too noble, cutesy/princessy. if darker, a bit too heavy. for solution, probably they should have needed someone like you there.
now that I saw those stills, I might have some moments where riders start to look that way.
(the person on horseback below is male btw)


it's not like they are always girls. there are lots of films whose main characters are boys. for example akira that I recommended years ago. most of the animes used to be almost for boys, where the protagonists were also boys. beseball story, soccer, boxing, space battle, psychics, super heroes, etc. but that was not fair, so maybe as the antithesis miyazaki had to create the protagonists who were girls and the stories that were for everyone, not only boys and girls but also adults. that was revolutionary.
anyway if the characters are boys, creators tend to make nudity explicit. there is a great work named berserk which I have never recommended, since it's bloody and the main characters are boys and I was thinking you were interested in how female characters are described there. but now it might be good to try berserk to see what it's like. you'd see one of the protagonists naked in certain scene. my opinion about it is the nidity was definitely necessary in order to depict he was a human of flesh and blood. it may appear as a shock and then adds some reality or life to the deadly medium of animation.


more later


equitationjapan

 

[runner]

definitely the impression of inverted triangular shape (逆三角) was stronger than that of big breasts.

it refers to the shape of torso.

 

[runner]

so- this begs the question-
why didn't you notice it until someone pointed it out>?
because you do agree and you do see it...
but you didn't even notice it at first...
and i noticed it in the very first scenes!
all those shots above are basically opening shots from the film...
are westerners just obsessed with sex so we see it everywhere?
or are we so shielded from it that we are shocked when we see it...?
and why don't the japanese even notice it?
why do we see it differently?- i guess this is what i am so curious about...

not saying this is the reason. but what I think might be somewhat relevant here.
we unconsciously focus on something. that's the way we usually see things. we see our own figure and ignore the rest that is ground. if there is an evergreen tree before us, we could be seeing the tree obviously or green leaves or sometimes branches, sometimes the trunk. but we would hardly see the space, shadow between the leaves. we unconsciously separate the world. that is, there is always something we don't see, in spite of the presence. but that's the very reason we can still be enchanted by the world, never too familiar with it.
for example, the mission of poetry is to defrost the world that has been frozen in a certain way.
our life could be seen as " an ever-renewed experiment in making its own beginning (merleau-ponty) ".


and even if we are seeing the same tree in front, we may be standing at different points.
seems like approach rather than obsession.

wiki




from mcluhan's the gutenberg galaxy, 1962 just for reference
books.google

 

[softgrey]

about "a well known and respected work of japanese origin", are you referring to tanizaki's essay?
although it is profusely known because of the catchy title, it's one of his lighthearted essays and what is regarded as crucial part of his works are some of his novels as the fulfilment of his statement at the end of that essay. yes the essay includes controvertial offensive content, but I think it is still important as the archeology of aesthetics. we can still see how some people could have been thinking and feeling back then. many of the senses of values written there, including the good and the bad/inheritable and ignominious, are not any more at least in the younger generations unfortunately and fortunately. the rest is dying, as I said. you know people hardly eat and drink by the flickering candlelight. even good old demons and spirits have been disinfected under the fluorescent lights.

yes- that is what i was referring to...
i agree- the title is very appealing...
i guess i had some expectations that i would be reading something a bit more poetic and not quite so lighthearted...
the humor certainly was not lost on me...
he did come across as a cranky old man, in a humorous way...
thanks for confirming that for me...
i'm glad i understood it as it was intended..

regarding the politically incorrect statements-
we certainly have things like this in our world as well...
it is even referred to in tanizaki's essay with regards to people with dark skin...
and i agree that it is interesting and important from an historical point of view to have some insight into how people were thinking at certain periods in our history...
we have some things like this here- though what i mostly know about are films...
you know i like to watch films from the 20's, 30's, 40's...
a great many of these films had been "buried" for a long time because of certain racist attitudes and other things that would be shocking and offensive today...
for some reason, this certain tv channel decided to be brave and to show these films without editing, as they were originally shown...
this was quite shocking at first, but comes to sound quite silly once the shock wears off...
and then it becomes interesting to be able to see (and hear) first hand what it must have been like at a certain time...
so i appreciate it in this way, definitely...
i suppose this is my first direct experience of this with japanese culture- so it felt a bit harsh...
but it opens a door for me to explore the evolution of these ideas in japan, so that's a good thing, imo...

from what i am hearing on some japanese news programs, japan is going to need women- and also immigrants- if it is going to thrive, because people are not having enough children there...it's too expensive...
so i realize that there is a need and a desire for change...
it's just hard to get a sense of what is happening "on the ground"- (locally and presently) without being there day to day...
frankly- i don't completely trust any media from any country at this point in my life...
facts are hard to come by...
the best we can hope for in the media is a fairly accurate interpretation, imho...

i did, indeed, find the parts of the essay about the use of gold leaf in candle light very interesting...
it is certainly different to imagine that sort of thing in very dim light than it is to see it in bright light...

also- i can easily imagine what it was like to be in the dark mountain forests and believe in spirits, etc...
i relate it to a child's fear of the dark...
any sort of monster might be lurking there- in the shadows, in one's imagination...
...

in praise of shadows could be called in praise of the imagined world...
the shadows leave a lot of room for the imagination/interpretation...
bright light shows the harsh realities of our world- both good and bad...

frankly- i enjoy the shadows...

 

[softgrey]

I think that program is not shown in japan.
yes the song love T.K.O. is well known over here too, well among certain kind of music lovers of course, and that is where the band name comes from. doesn't one of the earlier compilations include a song "warned by past romances" by the band ? I could easily be confusing it with something else though.

ahh I didn't notice the little tree in the corner until now, sasuga. and the choreography, her movements, should refer to the evergreen tree waving at you, or the equation of her and the tree just like that album cover above. if the cover had been done in a serious mood or sort of sentimentally, it would have been somewhat embarrassing. so she went silly, funny, or prankish whatever. then that posture. but contrary to the overall tone, there is something poignant at the core.
also she said "will you all dance with me" just before "come on, joy". so the crowd had to dance willy-nilly.

about "a well known and respected work of japanese origin", are you referring to tanizaki's essay?
although it is profusely known because of the catchy title, it's one of his lighthearted essays and what is regarded as crucial part of his works are some of his novels as the fulfilment of his statement at the end of that essay. yes the essay includes controvertial offensive content, but I think it is still important as the archeology of aesthetics. we can still see how some people could have been thinking and feeling back then. many of the senses of values written there, including the good and the bad/inheritable and ignominious, are not any more at least in the younger generations unfortunately and fortunately. the rest is dying, as I said. you know people hardly eat and drink by the flickering candlelight. even good old demons and spirits have been disinfected under the fluorescent lights.


I believe nausica is not a kid. young yes but at least grown/old enough to beat countless adult male soldiers with her own physical power and speed. so pigeon-breasted rather than big breasts. I mean, like conan the barbarian but she is not male nor barbarian. so somewhat streamlined version as a character design. that is how I see nausica. basically my generation all had watched the film those days. my friends, both boys and girls, found her super cool and attractive. princess, leader, warrior, and explorer. certainly we didn't find her sexy. definitely the impression of inverted triangular shape (逆三角) was stronger than that of big breasts.
thank you for all the screenshots, I see how you find her look schocking. probably they should have selected some other color for what seem like riding pants. maybe they meant tan but it was too similar to the color of her skin. but then if the color had been obviously whitish, it could have been too noble, cutesy/princessy. if darker, a bit too heavy. for solution, probably they should have needed someone like you there.
now that I saw those stills, I might have some moments where riders start to look that way.
(the person on horseback below is male btw)


it's not like they are always girls. there are lots of films whose main characters are boys. for example akira that I recommended years ago. most of the animes used to be almost for boys, where the protagonists were also boys. beseball story, soccer, boxing, space battle, psychics, super heroes, etc. but that was not fair, so maybe as the antithesis miyazaki had to create the protagonists who were girls and the stories that were for everyone, not only boys and girls but also adults. that was revolutionary.
anyway if the characters are boys, creators tend to make nudity explicit. there is a great work named berserk which I have never recommended, since it's bloody and the main characters are boys and I was thinking you were interested in how female characters are described there. but now it might be good to try berserk to see what it's like. you'd see one of the protagonists naked in certain scene. my opinion about it is the nidity was definitely necessary in order to depict he was a human of flesh and blood. it may appear as a shock and then adds some reality or life to the deadly medium of animation.


more later


equitationjapan

i wish i knew if any of the programs i watch are also shown over there...
sorry- no, i don't have that song/band on any of my discs...

the chisai tree is kawaii and so is the waving tree dance...
and so is the fact that you are using the term willy-nilly...


thanks for explaining the way you and your friends thought of nausicaa...
even though a different colour legging would have helped, i think that as long as the outline of her buttocks was there, it would still be considered provocative by american standards...
though maybe as a kid, one doesn't think like this...
certainly there are a lot of things i saw as a kid which seemed purely innocent to me, but took on a different meaning when i was an adult...
maybe it has to do with your age and experience when you are first exposed to it...
when i was little i thought the village people were just a band that wore fun costumes...i had no idea they were super gay!...
the same with the band queen...



i guess these films you recommended were an excellent place to start for anyone interested in japanese animation...
there is so much, one hardly knows where to start...
thank you for helping me to find my way and for discussing these things...
i did finally see akira a couple of months ago...
honestly- it was hard for me to get excited by it...
i guess it would be better if i knew the manga before i saw the movie...
however- i got some mailers from comme des garcons that has some akira imagery...
i don't always save cdg mailers, but these two struck me, so i saved them and only after i saw akira did i recognize the artwork...
so, i guess it does make a strong impression, even without knowing the surrounding story...
i'm glad i got a chance to see it...
i'll try to see berserk some time as well...
thanks for warning me about the nudity...


thanks for the pic on horseback...
strikingly similar- yes...
interesting...

 

[runner]

sorry for having made you do the wasteful search. I was thinking it could have been on the CD which includes "girl overboard".

what nausica wears there seemed like some seamless riding pants. they are part of her expedition outfit in which she battles and flies. they should be flexible but also quite protective, somewhat thick like neoprene. probably that's miyazaki's draft.
I get to see people in wetsuits with the outline of their buttocks. but honestly, provocative would be the last adjective to describe the look of them. but then I don't remember seeing any wetsuit in that color on them. if I see it, I can imagine it could look sort of provocative.

also miyazaki might have wanted nausica to be allusive to a bird. otherwise, her arms are too massive even though she might be wearing some padded jacket.

I agree a kid and an adult differ in standpoint, while not in kind.
yes the village people were just a fun group to me too, not making me think of the term gay.
but no, queen was not the same. yes as a band, however, his white tights.


more later


wall.alphacoders

 

[softgrey]

thanks for those pics...
hmm...
i can see the inverted triangle you referred to earlier...
and the "pigeon breast"...
and i suppose her arms are a bit larger that one might expect...

you see that little squirrel sort of creature on her soulder...
well, sometimes she's giggling like a little girl and stuff, talking to it...
i guess that also made me think she was younger...
though i guess we all talk "baby talk" to our pets, no matter our age...
...

ah - freddie mercury's white tights...the tight white bottoms strike again...!!!
i guess maybe i can begin to see why they were selected in both cases from a style perspective...
there is something about white tights/leggings that lends itself to science fiction...
and anything futuristic...fantasy, if you will...
a white wet suit seems like it would be good in space, for instance...
this is the first time the white leggings make sense to me...
i see it from a different perspective now...
......wow!

that is so cool and crazy...
i really do see it as more of a science fiction adventure film now, rather than an animated movie...this changes everything...
right- i'm gonna have to watch it again now!
it will be like watching it for the first time, i know it...
wow- i really can't believe it...

this is great...
thank you so much runner...and melisande...woohoo!!!

 

[softgrey]

if i were in charge of the programming, i would play the videos of these bands like the ones you guys are talking about with subtitles...
i think it would, literally, change the world...

just after posting this i saw another japanese music program where they did just this...
honestly- it was so good...!!!

 

[Melisande]

Hello there!! So much to catch up on, I've been following but I wanted to take my time to read properly and write proper comments... so excuse my absence Not, actually, that I have much to add...it's all been covered...I agree with Runner on all his excellent points

It's true about the inverted triangle thing, maybe that's why I never thought of Nausicaa as sexy as a child. I was surprised and taken aback and had to sort of agree as an adult when others pointed it out from an American feminist perspective, especially after having been initiated to that perspective myself. On the other extreme, Fujiko-chan from Lupin III was ALWAYS sexy to anyone and everyone from any culture and age from day one. Even as a child I was shocked. But not Nausicaa, it's very subtle. But Softie, I'm wondering if you find she's more provocative than, say, the Little Mermaid?? Or even Snow White? She's quite coquettish no? I think Nausicaa would be totally Disney-safe (which I guess is kind of a standard for child-appropriateness in the US...) what do you think?

Yes...in praise of shadows...Softie I remember back when we had the what are you wearing today thread, you mentioned you like photographing your outfits in shadows, and that stuck with me, I thought it was a beautiful idea It's true, sometime we get so much out of what is implied, glimpsed, imagined, I really like what you said.

Also Runner I really like how you said about the fluorescent lighting disinfecting the demons and spirits...and basically, I would say, our whole lives...it's SO true...it really bothered me in Tokyo...and especially now that in Paris people actually embrace the romance of darkness. All the streetlamps are soft warm golden-hued, and nobody, NOBODY uses fluorescent lighting inside homes, like we do in Japan. It's not even a choice.
And so beautiful about poetry defrosting our frozen world.

Oh, btw Softie, going back a bit, it's true that we have no qualms about bathing together. I think it's because 1) we're all naked together and 2) it's all (usually) only women and 3) no one person is "more naked" than another person. This is very big.

 

[runner]

with satsuki's red skirt- we see just a tiny hint of her white undies-
now- that could easily have just been shaded in so that it doesn't jump out, but no...it's bright white undies...
it's tiny here, just a peek...but on a giant movie screen, it's much bigger...
there is no way anyone can convince me that it wasn't a deliberate choice by the film makers...
i think that as soon as kids are out of diapers, we start to get squeamish about anything that might sexualize them in any way...
we are very sensitive to this sort of thing...
my reading has taught me about the history of japanese masters and their favourite boys...
so i guess there is a different cultural history...
i'm not saying that japan is full of pedophiles, only that i wonder if there is a different idea of what is age appropriate...
and where those ideas come from...
on both sides...

there is a lot of christianity in the west and a lot of what we believe about sex comes from that....
generally- our laws are based on the 10 commandments-
don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat, etc...
i am only beginning to understand about shinto and buddhism...
but i have seen nothing about sex in them at all...

so, i wonder, where do the japanese get their moral foundations from and what are they?
all the ideas about family honour and "saving face"...
how was that born and what is it based on?
and where/how does sex come into it?

yes in the anime world elaborated by ghibli, basically everything has to be decided by the creators. there in no place for that kind of accidental visual noise (the fowl) that happened in the short film mentioned in the gutenberg galaxy on the previous page. it's an exhilarating scene where they go flying along on a bicycle. it depicts only what it needs for the wind and the speed. it is not unnaturally concealed nor unnecessarily revealed. probably this is the world they considered it should be. and I don't think it has been sexualized in any way. I don't find anything sexy there. btw, as it's well known over here, mei is a childlike representation of miyazaki himself.

I don't think we have a very different idea of what is age appropriate. but, in the way the idea is reflected, we might mutually see some divergences of the idea. in japan people don't have schoolgirls wash their cars in summer. most japanese found it shocking when they knew of child beauty contests.
on the other hand, yes there should be a different cultural history. you can have a glimpse into what it was like once upon a time in japan here.

anyway generally we don't associate miyazaki's works with anything sexy. when he did his own version of lupin the third, even fujiko mine didn't look sexy to us. there was only cool, clever, intelligent side of fujiko featured there. though that was never unexpected, because we knew it was by him. this way, we even assume that he is not good at describing that sort of thing.
but mentioned earlier, certainly we have lots of animes with clearly provocative contents.

as you said, before an anime there is usually a manga. there are exceptions (e.g. totoro), but many of the stuff we saw can be the anime version of the original manga. today we have really various kinds of manga, almost anything and everything. but manga is innately an existence that has to continue to be scolded perpetually by those who educate, enlighten, and moralize but are never aware of the maggots breeding at the false bottom of their own belief.
remember our kindergarten days or even elementary school classrooms. there are always some kids who casually, randomly or instinctively draw a penis, boobs, whatever, every time they find human figures in their schoolbooks. not every kid of course, perhaps even a minority, but we have an undeniable constant. manga is originally a dependable ally of those kids. manga is what parents don't want children to see and what children really want to see, while the universe of disney might be what parents want to make children appreciate. manga is something to be ridiculed, abased or despised. something low, indecent, wicked. aberration, obscenity and nonsense. but that which can melt what has been hardened, frozen and brittle. the "negative classicist", wilde, schiele, bataille, adorno, mishima, carol christian poell, shion sono.....in a way dangerous, but just honest.
a genuine manga should be something like that. of course it may differ in degree from the above names, but should not differ in kind.
yura yura teikoku is a band of those boys who have grown but still keep the spirit. shintaro sakamoto was a big manga fan kid who couldn't help but expressing his complicated love towards sh*t. the father of their urge and imagination is a problem child. manga is simply for the child. that's where manga's happiness lies in, since there is no need to be underpinned by PTA approval there. and that is the roots of manga, no matter how much today's manga/anime projects have been commercialized, sterilized or detoxified. if I was allowed to speak in japanese, manga is in itself yabai mono.

in the stories you may see buddhism, shinto, bushido, shugendo, onmyodo, tachikawaryu, ninpou, etc, etc, but what manga is really about is something older than them. what manga should really show you is somewhere from which morality (maybe your own one instead of the imposed) is nurtured. or manga is one of those things that take you to the edge of an inevitable steep cliff where "that there is no moral is itself the moral" (ango sakaguchi, yohji's literature hero).

 

[runner]

...it really bothered me in Tokyo...

the worst is convini and the saddest is our nature.
the brighter it is, the more we are drawn in.

 

[softgrey]

btw, as it's well known over here, mei is a childlike representation of miyazaki himself.

woah- i had no idea...that's cute...

in japan people don't have schoolgirls wash their cars in summer. most japanese found it shocking when they knew of child beauty contests.

we don't either-lol...
and if they do it to raise somem money - they are not wearing mini skirts...more like sweatpants...
that is just stuff of male fantasies in very juvenile movies...
that is not a real picture of american life...
you see- there are definitely things we don't know or that we get wrong via the media...
...i find that so funny, really...

and most americans think that child beauty contests are completely abnormal and weird and unhealthy and just wrong...maybe even a bit sad...
but - that is why you have TV shows about them...because people love to laugh at them and point at them and say how crazy they are...
most americans are strongly against it, as far as i know...
*ps - it happens mostly in a few southern states...

thanks for the link and recommendation about the tale of genji...
i hear that title a lot so i guess i should put that on my reading list...
good to know...


tokorode- about fujiko...
her boobs are HUGE!......always!
the only american animation i can think of that even compares to that is Jessica Rabbit from Who Framed Roger Rabbit...
but that was definitely meant to be a satire of glamour girls from the 30's-40's...
ok-maybe wonder woman was also pretty sexualized...
yeah- maybe what you call manga and what we call comics always have a certain element of danger and sexuality...
maybe that is why some (not all) of the people you find who are so into them seem to be weird and creepy and stuff...
...
don't you guys have a name for that- otaku?

more later...

 

[Melisande]

Runner that's interesting that you associate manga with that kind of dark, sexual subculture...that's a side of manga that I know of course exists in a major way, but I have very little experience with...

But the mainstream classics are mostly PG-13; all of which I've read:
Sazaesan and anything by Hasegawa Machiko
Doraemon and anything by Fujiko-Fujio
Atom, Black Jack and anything by Tezuka Osamu...
others like Hadashi no Gen, Nausicaa, Maison Ikkoku etc.

...and the rest of the manga, I only know over the shoulders of people in the subways, or from friends...I've never even read shojo-manga, and was actually quite shocked to discover the expressly titillating nature of some of the content meant to be read by teenage girls...hmm...

Yes Tales of Genji is beautiful...and the poetry from the Heian period...
super romantic....

 

[runner]

we don't either-lol...
and if they do it to raise somem money - they are not wearing mini skirts...more like sweatpants...
that is just stuff of male fantasies in very juvenile movies...
that is not a real picture of american life...
you see- there are definitely things we don't know or that we get wrong via the media...
...i find that so funny, really...

no, I didn't say "mini skirts". and I haven't seen that in juvenile movies. I heard of it from a japanese who had lived in kentucky for 12 years. I don't remember what the schoolgirls were said to be wearing. but I guess if it had been just sweatpants the person would not have talked about it all the way. I now see from your tone it's not a big deal to you anyway. but to the japanese there should have been something sexualized found around it, just like you saw something sexualized about nausica. this is what I was trying to say.

tokorode- about fujiko...
her boobs are HUGE!......always!
the only american animation i can think of that even compares to that is Jessica Rabbit from Who Framed Roger Rabbit...
but that was definitely meant to be a satire of glamour girls from the 30's-40's...
ok-maybe wonder woman was also pretty sexualized...
yeah- maybe what you call manga and what we call comics always have a certain element of danger and sexuality...
maybe that is why some (not all) of the people you find who are so into them seem to be weird and creepy and stuff...
...
don't you guys have a name for that- otaku?

more later...

yes as a character design fujiko has to be depicted always with huge boobs. but it's not at all like huge boobs = sexy.
and as a kid I haven't thought wonder woman was sexualized. in my eyes she looked like a sporty strong safe teacher.
otaku is a term from the 80's. the scope of its meaning is now really broaden. for example, when you are currently into french cuisine, you can be called french otaku. in that case most of the creepy connotation is not there any more. so for that weird stuff these days you'd say akiba-kei.
but basically both terms are not used for children.