Yohji Yamamoto: " I Hate Fashion "

[tricotineacetat]

Is the Japanese fashion movement over?

I don´t think we any distinct movements left these days... probably star-style, or InStyle-fashion ..., yet it´s obscure to think that in such a small niche as high fashion, one can speak of a movement. There´s more to it than just clothes, it ultimately also involves art, music and other cultural aspects, non?

 

[faust]

I have had the priviallage and disdain of working within the Yohi Yamamoto Company. Before I started there and within my studies at university I respected and lookeed up to Yohji as a mentor for my own fashion identity. It was his clothing that always rocked me, his use of lines and concepts of shapes. He is a true master. The disdain that I felt was that of his unwillingness to modernize his image. He has for a very long time created what he creates and has never budged. Never has he revamped the image of Yohji Yamamoto. There is some respect to be given to someone who sticks to their guns but at this day and age it is the collaboration of creative and commerce that propells one into a succesful buisness. Newness is needed. Y-3 was his move into mainstream but it still did not make him! Its still Adidas and not Yohji!!! I talked with high powered people within the Yohji corporation about why this is. Why is Yohji not caring of his counterparts and their diving into a modernized world of fashion but still within their own creative world. Comme Des Garcon for instance was my example with this Yamamoto employee. I asked why is Comme running forward within fashions scope with her Guerrilla stores, Dover Street and all the collaborations that she involves herself with and Yohji not doing anything to reintroduce himself to a maybe yonger crowd, a hipper crowd or even to his loyal followers. Even the loyals need a recycling of energy to stay loyal. Yohji, i felt, needed to also produce such energy within his company. I was told not to compare the two designers because it was like comparing the 2 slowest kids in the class who sit in the back row. I should look at who is in front of the class for inspiration not the one that sits at your left or right. This comment from this high-ranking official in the Yohji camp shocked me. I felt I was comparing Yohji to a higher standard classmate, REi kawakubo! She, in my mind, is no longer in the back of the class, I said. She has driven toward the front. What is yohji doing to keep up? the topic was dropped and so was my respect for the company.
Its hard, I beleive, for a company with such roots to grow within this fast paced world of consumerisim and celebritisim. Rei kawakubo has exceled in putting herself constantly in the fore front of it all with an artistic eye and and creative vision. She has created modernity. Yohj, I feel has not done so within the lst few years Yes his clothing last decades and never will become dated always new and fresh but his image has lost its shine and needs to be polished into todays market. I still look at his clothing with a bit amazment but I feel from learning more of the company and meeting the man himself that it is a dying company. I do not expect many more years of the yamamoto label because of this unwillingness of change. He has not embraced today and is stuck in his ideals of yesterday.

It's funny, you hail Yohji as a true master and then you ask him to water down and sell his image the way Rei has done? In other words, it seems like you want to take something higher and bring it down. Why? Yohji has achieved what many commercially successful designers out there only can dream of - he will go down in the history books as one of the most innovative and important designers in the history of fashion. From what I've read, Yohji is very Zen in his mentality, very secluded and peaceful. He is around 60. Why should he subscribe to your PR view of fashion, and waste his time and energy on growing into a commerical empire?

 

[*sayan]

hi tricotine,

about the COMME arrogance, maybe the fact u asked the question is a proof to them u dont believe in theyr values, and therefor you cant sell theyr garments with conviction. They need only the people that believe in them fully. The price for the garments is always the same math. quality-quantity-time-demand-rent. im making it simple but u get what im saying...asking them to xplain is like telling them that u suspect them to be robing you. wich is a little insulting for a company that was never been about getting bigger moneywise. the only reason they are expanding, is not to die(we all know the markets rules). They have a message to communicate, they stand for values, not for profit.

Theyr so called arrogance is the proof to theyr lack of corporate attitude, corporate whores just have theyr tongue stuck up ur *** all day long, afraid
they might lose a client, cant even imagine the treatment they give to buyers.

 

[faust]

hi tricotine,

about the COMME arrogance, maybe the fact u asked the question is a proof to them u dont believe in theyr values, and therefor you cant sell theyr garments with conviction. They need only the people that believe in them fully. The price for the garments is always the same math. quality-quantity-time-demand-rent. im making it simple but u get what im saying...asking them to xplain is like telling them that u suspect them to be robing you. wich is a little insulting for a company that was never been about getting bigger moneywise. the only reason they are expanding, is not to die(we all know the markets rules). They have a message to communicate, they stand for values, not for profit.

Theyr so called arrogance is the proof to theyr lack of corporate attitude, corporate whores just have theyr tongue stuck up ur *** all day long, afraid
they might lose a client, cant even imagine the treatment they give to buyers.

What?

What do you mean, "believe in them fully?" A store is a business, it has to survive - what, they just suppose to give their money to Rei and not ask questions? That's ridiculous. "Stand for values, not for profit?" - I don't think so, all the recent Comme moves have been very profit-seeking - just not in a usual conservative manner. You seem to be comparing CDG with Merrill Lynch, insted of comparing CDG with Yohji.

 

[*sayan]

sorry, i dont know who merrill lynch is, and i wasnt comparing to yohji, i was just thinking of a reason for theyr lack of explanation to theyr product, like i said the math is always the same, so why ask for the price explanation.
and i think the growth of CdG is not to make more money by greed, but to survive internationnally, u have to grow , even a little if you want to be on an international level.

Plus, i see the marketing moves of COMME so forward, innovative, courageous, that i still see it as part of the creative process, every move they make is a huge risk they take, i like that.

Do you think COMME stands for making more money?(i dont mean she doesnt eat and live under a roof, i mean making more money as in f*ck everything and anything including my own integrity, just to make money).

 

[droogist]

^ But tricontine's question was a perfectly normal one. He couldn't justify the higher prices himself, so he asked the representatives of the business to explain; was it really too much for him to expect a non-patronizing answer? According to your logic, the only retailers fit to sell CdG are mindless, uncritical, sycophantic zombies.

 

[*sayan]

According to your logic, the only retailers fit to sell CdG are mindless, uncritical, sycophantic zombies.

never said anything like that, sorry about the missunderstanding, not trying to attack anyone here.

 

[faust]

sorry, i dont know who merrill lynch is, and i wasnt comparing to yohji, i was just thinking of a reason for theyr lack of explanation to theyr product, like i said the math is always the same, so why ask for the price explanation.
and i think the growth of CdG is not to make more money by greed, but to survive internationnally, u have to grow , even a little if you want to be on an international level.

Plus, i see the marketing moves of COMME so forward, innovative, courageous, that i still see it as part of the creative process, every move they make is a huge risk they take, i like that.

Do you think COMME stands for making more money?(i dont mean she doesnt eat and live under a roof, i mean making more money as in f*ck everything and anything including my own integrity, just to make money).

Ok, you don't know what Merrill Lynch is, yet you speak of money-grabbing soulless business entities so freely.

The math is DEFINITELY NOT always the same. In fashion there is a huge degree of variation in charging for the name, not the product.

Do I think Comme stands for making more money? Judging from the recent collaborations and other gimmicks - yes, somewhat. Am I saying it's a sin - no, not really. I was writing in response of accusing Yamamoto of not going "forward" - but I don't agree with marketing as the prescribed method for going forward.

 

[*sayan]

I never thought i needed to know Merrill Lynch to understand the difference between making a product for the love of creating and making a product for the love of money. Although im all ears to what Merrill Lynch is.

I didnt develop my idea of the math, but i was counting the fact one must charge for the name in the math. I dont think theres anything wrong with paying for a dream. I dont feel it affects ones integrity.

I agree with the fact marketing is not a prescribed way of going forward, but her way of making marketing is different from any other marketing approach. And since marketing is key in communicating the concept, i would rather have a unique interpretation.

 

[droogist]

*sayan, I'm sorry if it came out rude. Basically all I was saying is that people should be able to criticize and ask questions without being punished for it.

 

[nqth]

How could I miss this dissusion?:-)

Tricotine, I am sorry that you heard that from Comme's ppl. It's quite a surprise. I do remember reading in an article that "Comme trictly "separate" from ppl who don't understand them". I don't know if it is a sign of arrogance, or just their way of working. It much depends on the way they do it.


Anyway I can see the way Comme makes Warsaw Guerrilla Store and I admire them for doing it. They do have tremendous faith in people here. I have just known that the begining of the store was quite problematic with the location. It was changed several times - it was very "polish specific":-P when the administration could change their decisions quite freely. But it was very well understood by Comme.

As about feed-backs from retailers about sale, I'd be very surprised if Comme took the "sellability" into an account while designing their collections. I'd be very unhappy if they do that. I know that it's money-driven business:-) but their business is where the design counts.

If I have to compare Yohji and Comme, just in the design aspect:-P I'd say I agree with Rui. Yohji is still doing his lessons from the 90s. He is a master with cut, craftmanship and quality. Yep. But that's it. People love his clothes, because they are beautiful, "classic" and wearable.

Comme is doing kind of "concept" fashion, imo. It is the idea that matters. This is their main force. If one likes it, one buys it. One has to be "crazy" about the inventiveness to like the jkt just bc it is a "materialized" idea of, for example, "bare", imo. I think the beauty of Comme is not just about just colours, forms, shapes, fabrics... They are just the "words" one uses, that can, or cannot describe the meaning.

It is not just about only the craftmanship and "almost hand made" garments. But of course they have to provide clothes with quality:-)

I also have to agree that the Y3 is Adidas, not Yohji. Now they also moved the show to NY. US is calling:-)

I don't think that the label is dying:-P but in term of sth that has happend, sth that cannot be expanding, or changing, it is not very interesting for me. He is doing what he is best in, never made a step outside. OK, I just talk from the fashion admire point of view, tho:-)


I like the CdG CdG line. I saw some pieces that are breathtaking. Other commerical lines of CdG. Play is for teenagers, that's obvious. Shirt is better, imo - more "clothey" than "conceptual", and the simple classic pieces are better than the wierd ones. Bc clothes are just clothes, aren't they:-) Collaborations are perfect imo, it is more than just doing business. Are they too hyped? Maybe, but their design just keeps the "hypes", no? I think that when doing too many things, risk so much energy and money, how can one make 100% things right?


Having said that, I think the DSM Ts are ugly :-))) the polos with DSM text are just abit better.

 

[tricotineacetat]

Sayan, I still have in mind that you are aspiring to become an independent designer... I think you should know that it is perfectly alright for a buyer to ask a company to justify a recognizably higher pricepoint from one season to another... I am in the end the one that needs to sell and justify the same to my customer... Where would this all lead to if I told my customers the very same thing... "It´s Comme Des Garcons, them being the most fashion forward brand alone allows us to dictate a higher pricepoint"? It´s very naive to think they always charge the same mark-up from production/fabric costs to wholesale... some companies such as Chanel are even known to calculate 600% (!), don´t tell me they have higher rents for warehouses and such... just where´s the justification of all this??

Unfortunately, we are not in the 80ies anymore in which luxury goods sold like crazy... both us and the designers need a certain reliability every season, it´s not only about love and art appreciation, it´s ultimately also about selling a product in the store, and people are very concious about prices these days, it´s not simply because they can´t afford it. You would probably know what I mean if you did my job for just some few days... Fashion´s a totally different issue once it hits the salesfloor.

 

[faust]

I really don't know how choosy the Comme people are with their retailers based on ideas and concepts. If they are so caring about people understanding their values - what are their clothes doing in Saks Fifth Avenue and Bergdorf Goodman? Sorry, but I don't think it's that romantic/idealistic.

 

[birdofparadise]

I don´t think we any distinct movements left these days... probably star-style, or InStyle-fashion ..., yet it´s obscure to think that in such a small niche as high fashion, one can speak of a movement. There´s more to it than just clothes, it ultimately also involves art, music and other cultural aspects, non?

What about the cultural trickle down effect attributed to high fashion, couldn't that at least be considered a mark of the devil otherwise known as a movement?

What I'm trying to figure out is if our lovely Yamamoto hates fashion because, culturally, there isn't a place for what he's trying to do anymore, especially considering the impact and possibility for future growth for Japanese designers may have been intensified and limited respectively due to the fact that they were lumped together. Could what's happened to the Antwerp Six (and what has happened anyway???) foretell Yamamoto's future?

Or is he just being self depricating like any Zen Buddhist?

 

[rive gauche]

If he hates fashion, he shouldn't be doing what's he doing NOW

 

[rive gauche]

and putting his name on perfume bottles or sneakers made in Bangladesh

 

[travolta]

What about the cultural trickle down effect attributed to high fashion, couldn't that at least be considered a mark of the devil otherwise known as a movement?

What I'm trying to figure out is if our lovely Yamamoto hates fashion because, culturally, there isn't a place for what he's trying to do anymore, especially considering the impact and possibility for future growth for Japanese designers may have been intensified and limited respectively due to the fact that they were lumped together. Could what's happened to the Antwerp Six (and what has happened anyway???) foretell Yamamoto's future?

Or is he just being self depricating like any Zen Buddhist?

i think the cultural trickle down from the japanese avant garde has given us deconstuction, design for comfort, and merging of high / low aesthetic (issey miyake's plantation line) pieces from that collection designed over twenty five years ago could be sold at urban outfitters today.

imho, i can't think of any of the antwerp avant garde introducing any real innovative ideas. if you disagree, please share. i think issey miyake, rei kawakubo and yohji yamamoto all were revolutinary in their own way.

issey miyake for his garments inspired by freedom of movement...complete unrestiction by the garment. he is the closest thing to an industrial designer. comme des garcons take on brand identity is a feat in itself. the fact that it is designed to move with fashion, completely unrestrained and fleeting is genius for companies trying to keep a consistent fanbase. it's also smart she built it concentrating on many facets, not just the clothes, as companies now are trying to branch out w/ a similar agenda. the guerilla store idea is so simple it's funny it has never been attempted before. yohji yamamoto's earthy aesthetics is highly influential. he is influenced by the flawed, the stained, the aged imperfection of all human beings, but his aesthetic is still accessible.


i think these designers aren't just being hip to what's modern. it is built into the way they view design. it's almost biological. i can't think of many fashion designers who think about the bigger picture while tackling the details so well. if you don't have good ideas what are you adding, really, and what is your staying power? how many different ways can you mutate a circle skirt before you realize to be relevant you have to abandon the needle and thread? sure there is this tradition and it's romantic and it should be done, but it definately ISN'T modern design.

i love how fashion is expressive and emotional, and very direct design. i dislike the hierachry though...the idea that 'good' clothing is determined by specific fabrics, and amount of labor which creates insane prices. how is such selective design good design?. i would say thinking of different ways to tackle this would be more interesting than another perfectly cut suit. innovation is a good business strategy. i think issey miyake understands this the most. i think the japanese ideas of the ephemeral and design without waste, the blurring of art and design has to play a part into their design strategies. it is what will make them here to stay. this is true for any other designer, japanese or not, who will think outside the box.

 

[Honey~Blade]

Personally I don't really think Yohji's stuff is too old or what not. His women's collections have always been great, imo. I wouldn't like to see him to something new in fact, I don't think it's his way of doing things. Every time I look at his collections I can instantly recognize that it was from his ideas. It'd just seem odd if I look at something "new" and then realize it was from him...
Simply put, I like his collections just the way their are. Hey maybe I'm stuck in the past heh.

 

[butbeautiful]

'I design for the woman who does not exist. The ideal woman.' - Yohji Yamamoto

 

[droogist]

imho, i can't think of any of the antwerp avant garde introducing any real innovative ideas. if you disagree, please share. i think issey miyake, rei kawakubo and yohji yamamoto all were revolutinary in their own way.

Well, I disagree...I don't know how familar you are with Martin Margiela's work but much of his output for his first 10 years or so was revolutionary. He was a pioneer of conceptual fashion, deconstruction, and the use of recyclage. I think it's easy to overlook his influence because a lot of his ideas very quickly came to pervade not just fashion, but low-end streetwear (e.g. arm warmers/unattatched sleeves and skirts-from-jeans were in large part his baby). Plus in terms of creative output MMM have pretty much just been spinning their wheels for the last few years.... But the early Margiela stuff was untouchable.

This is getting pretty off-topic though. Perhaps it's the subject for another thread....that I'm too lazy to start....