1970s-1990s The Japanese Avant-garde

[nqth]

You are welcome, Softgrey:-)

Thank you Travolta, I will have to study it :-)


Thanks Runner for the explaination. It's very interesting, hard to understand:-). So what is fueki in Comme's works? Is it the idea of "strong" that Rei Kawakubo often says. She said that "strong" means the freedom to create.

So clothes that don't have any constrains. The collections are expression of different states of being free.

Comme is usually "raw", rebelous, punk-ish in their expression, even when she makes the sweetest bridal dresses. Yohji is quiet, poetic. Sometimes I think that because Yohji sees "beautiful women" in his clothes but Rei sees rather strong, fighting, powerful women. I don't know if I am right:-)

Do you notice that "changing" is an issue for many designers? Jil Sander was trying hard to change her fashion, and managing to keep her very own style in the same time. It's hard because the pure concept is about concrete things in design, form, shape, cut...

Changing is the v. natural for Comme, for examples, imo, since her concept is not limited by any mean. She may uses her "language" anytimes, but the results are often completely new. I'd say it is v. "Fueki-Ryukou". Am I right?:-)

 

[travolta]

the rest of the article is available here http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1248/is_2_87/ai_53868147/pg_1
Miyake and Japanese Tradition

What is Japanese in Miyake's work, and why has its "Eastern" component been so well received in the West? The designer understands and appreciates the strengths of Japan's traditions, and is equally aware of how and when to translate that knowledge beyond Japan' borders. The pervasiveness of indigo, for instance, in traditional Japanese folk dress and textiles served as an influence in Miyake's earliest clothing collections. The blue of our ubiquitous blue jeans was originally derived from the same dye source.

In its outlines, the T-shaped kimono can be called an elongated forerunner of our T-shirt. It is simple in construction, being formed of rectangular sections of cloth sewn side to side, which make up the sleeves and body of the garment. In his early handkerchief dresses (1970) Miyake did the same, but instead shifted the orientation of the seams from the vertical to the diagonal.

The relationship between the wearer's body and the traditional kimono is another reference that can be seen in much of Miyake's clothing. Unlike occidental dress, which tends to follow the body's contours through the use of bias cutting, padding and an overall tight fit, the kimono disguises the body's specific shape, and instead suggests the body's movements in the way the voluminous sleeves sway and the long trailing hem sweeps as the wearer moves. Miyake's clothes, which have also been worn by dancers in performances, do not usually hug the body, but move with it in interesting ways.

Because the cut of the kimono is so simple, Japanese textile artisans and designers focused their attention on the fabric itself and its surface decoration. The weight and texture of the cloth used for kimono conveys a wide range of tactile and visual sensations. The designs created by dyeing, weaving, embroidery and applied metal foils can be startling in their dynamic and asymmetric patterning.

An understanding of textile fibers, both natural and synthetic, and of fabrics, both handwoven and traditionally dyed, as well as high-tech textiles that are not woven at all, is one of the most remarkable aspects of Miyake's work. Multi-directional pleating, garments encased in metallic skins, multicolored feltlike clothing "collaged" together from irregularly shaped pieces of cloth, and dresses with large sections that are selectively shrunk represent some of the textile-conscious directions that Miyake has taken in recent years.

A Miyake design doesn't correspond to a particular fashion season, current look or social tendency. His clothes are difficult to put in any chronological order by those who are unfamiliar with his work. One of the more refreshing aspects of Issey Miyake as a fashion designer (a designation he dislikes) is that he does not participate in the seasonal trends involving the selective exposure, exaggeration, or emphasis of a particular part of the female anatomy. This is not to imply that bare skin and transparency are absent from his design vocabulary, but rather that such factors do not drive his design statements. Many of his clothes (as is the case with the kimono) can be worn by women of all ages, shapes and sizes.

The distinction between art and design was not relevant in traditional Japan. Painters worked on kimono, textile designers might also be potters. A hierarchy of fine and applied arts did not exist. An event such as the tea ceremony included a single painting or calligraphic work, ceramics as tea bowls, textiles as wrappers for tea utensils, a flower arrangement and specially-made edibles, all set in a carefully designed space. Perhaps it is this approach that facilitates Miyake's collaborations with artists and his periodic appearances in art museums.

 

[travolta]

your welcome you guys. i've been trying to educate myself. once you have read through that you can read another essay i've found, which i think is slightly better, but both are interesting.

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ADM/railey.htm

 

[runner]

you are welcome anna, softgrey, nqth

yes softgrey, although the extract says "art" in that context, it could extend to what we make on the whole.
something which has eternal life.

nqth, I think you are.
changing is a means of being free. the new is a necessary of her expression.
the latest individual idea is a chance of the descending of Fueki.

 

[softgrey]

Comme is usually "raw", rebelous, punk-ish in their expression, even when she makes the sweetest bridal dresses. Yohji is quiet, poetic. Sometimes I think that because Yohji sees "beautiful women" in his clothes but Rei sees rather strong, fighting, powerful women. I don't know if I am right:-)

this is interesting nqth...and i might have agreed with you before...
but in the A magazine...yohji speaks about being very 'angry'...especially when he first began designing...and of fighting against the 'fashion system' and trying to change it...to expand the definition of 'fashion'...

this was a big surprise to me...because i think of his work as more 'quiet and poetic'...it doesn't seem 'angry' or confrontational in the way that rei's often does...

i think maybe his work has come full circle...the stuff he does now is more like what i remember him designing in his early career...but now it's more well-developed...and more refined...

i will try to find the quote and post it...

 

[softgrey]

yes softgrey, although the extract says "art" in that context, it could extend to what we make on the whole.
something which has eternal life.

how lovely...

 

[droogist]

Comme is usually "raw", rebelous, punk-ish in their expression, even when she makes the sweetest bridal dresses. Yohji is quiet, poetic. Sometimes I think that because Yohji sees "beautiful women" in his clothes but Rei sees rather strong, fighting, powerful women. I don't know if I am right:-)

I missed this the first time, but softgrey's response brought it to my attention and reminded me of one of my favorite YY quotes: "I believe clothes cannot make women beautiful. Only women can make clothes beautiful." Kawakubo, on the other hand, has at one point stated flat out, "I’m not interested in making women look beautiful."

At first I thought this indicated a stark contrast in attitude between the two of them, but after thinking about it, they now strike me as quite similar; they are both saying that they're not in the business of making "beautiful" clothes. It's the person wearing it who determines the end result.

 

[nqth]

Softgrey, I also remember reading Yohji somewhere that he said he is angry about fashion system, even at the market...

But I cannot see it in his clothes indeed. He didn't right a protest song:-) He just sings his own way. Maybe he doesn't see "angry clothes" as a right way to express his feelings.

I can't remember when his collections actually questioning things. To me his clothes are always elegant, "womenly" in a way. Not in a traditional mean of course, there are the asymetrical things, drapping, playing with cuts and volumn. But the cut is always soft and gentle. There might be a pair of boots, or hair style that shows the "rebel" attitute, but in a whole, there is always the traditional harmony. A woman seems to be always the absolute in his mind.

I think "refine" is the word, Softgrey:-)

I think the diff. of their works might come from the way they both see fashion. Yohji Yamamoto in fact said about women making the clothes beautiful. Rei Kawakubo said about feeling "positive energy". It's like it's not about "being", but "creating":-)

 

[nqth]

OMG, Yamamoto did prints before:-)

SS2002

 

[travolta]

i just saw a pic of a pleats please cropped jacket in Nylon...does anyone know where i can find pics online?

 

[travolta]

i stumbled upon this guide to japanese zen gardens and i think it applies to this stuff as well.

Guiding Thoughts in Japanese Aesthetics

Shizen (naturalness, absence of pretense) - Gardens (and arguably any aesthetic object) should be natural. Design with the intention of making your creation look as though it had grown that way by itself. If you have obviously man-made objects involved, do not try to disguise them. (ex. Cement mortar or brick looks better untouched than painted.) Choose simple objects which will fit in with the natural surroundings.

Odd Numbers - When placing elements in a composition, use odd numbers such as one, three, and five. This will better result in a sense of natural asymmetry.

The Triangle - Compositions such as groupings of stones, branches on a tree, etc. can be judged based on how easily one may draw an imaginary triangle between any three elements.

Fukinsei (asymmetry or dissymmetry) - Balanced symmetry, as humans devise it, does not exist often on nature. Therefore, it is better to make designs asymmetrical if one wishes to create an impression of naturalness.

Kanso (simplicity or brevity) - “Less is more” This idea is most evident in Zen gardens, where a single stone may encompass the idea of an entire mountain or island. Remove what is unnecessary, and the composition will be strengthened.

Yugen - Subtly profound, suggestion reather than revelation.

Datsuzoku - unworldliness, transcendence of conventional.

Seijaku - quiet, calm, silent.

Koko - (austerity, maturity, bare essentials, venerable, abstraction) - Water is a prime element of a garden, but raked gravel or carefully arranged flat river stones can create the impression of water.

Contrast - Contrast can be used to create tension between elements. Tension can create energy, motion and harmony.

Lines - Perpendicular lines create tranquillity. Diagonals create tension. Curves soften the effect.

Ma (space) - There is openness in everything and nothing exists alone. All objects interact with one another in space. In fact, the space of the garden only exists because there is a larger space outside of it. Where is the space in the composition? Why? How does the composition breathe?

Layers of time - Some parts of a composition change with the weather or the angle of the sun. Some change with the season. Others, like stone, hardly change at all for centuries. Yet time changes everything eventually. Good design considers this.

Meigakure - This is the quality of remaining hidden from ordinary view. All compositions have a best viewing angle. Find it or create it and control how the viewer approaches and is able to see the composition. For example, bonsai are, in essence, two-dimensional views designed to be viewed from the front only. Set your garden path so that only a single branch of the cherry tree can be seen around the corner and you guarantee the viewer will round that corner. Design the viewer’s experience, not just the garden. On the other hand, do not over-complicate.

Wabi and Sabi - Two of the hardest concepts of Japanese aesthetics to express in western language, generally they are wabi; “subdued taste”, “austere”, and sabi; “rustic simplicity”, “mellowed”. These terms were created by the Tea masters of the sixteenth century.

Shin, Gyo, So - Shin; controlled or shaped by man, So; things in their natural state, Gyo; the blending of Shin and So to compliment each other.

 

[runner]

thanks travolta
that reminds me - Rei said she likes it 5 or 7.

I don't know which jacket you are referring to, but there are some pieces on the site below.

http://www.tribecaisseymiyake.com

 

[helena]

Kanso (simplicity or brevity) - “Less is more” This idea is most evident in Zen gardens, where a single stone may encompass the idea of an entire mountain or island. Remove what is unnecessary, and the composition will be strengthened.

Runner is this the same a sthe Japanese art of 'su-i-seki'? I am not sure if I have spelled that correctly. I have a piece of su-iseki in my house - its a piece of limstone which looks like a mountain with a cherry wood base. I find this concept really interesting.

Thanks for this Travolta - I want to digest it further. Its fascinating isn't it?

 

[runner]

yes that piece you have is "sui-seki" or "bon-seki".
a stone in the garden is also called sui-seki.

 

[helena]

thankyou runner - its a beautiful idea - to bring little mini mountains into your house or garden. Rather like bonsai trees I suppose - minatures. There is also a threory about the contrast bewteen the stone and the base it sits on - based on opposites i think.... hard & soft, light & dark, rugged & smooth, even and uneven. I find this really interesting.

Do you like sui-seki runner?

 

[runner]

yes I like it helena.


just found a pic of very famous garden in Kyoto.

 

[luxmode]

i stumbled upon this guide to japanese zen gardens and i think it applies to this stuff as well.

thanks for this info travolta. i'm facinated by the zen aesthetic and i'm always looking for ways to incorporate it into my own work. i'm familiar with the concepts of wabi sabi, kanso, odd numbers, and of course asymmetry, but some of the others are new to me...i've noticed the shizen principle in various artworks and gardens and this is something i greatly admire. also, yugen and ma are facinating! i have to find out more about this...thanks again for the info!

 

[nqth]

Many thanks travolta for this. Very very interesting:-)

I think we have had a short Meigakure disscusion in JW Man SS05 thread:-)

 

[helena]

yes I like it helena.


just found a pic of very famous garden in Kyoto.

ahhh runner thats a shame the pic didn't work. I would LOVE to go to Kyoto & see the beautiful gardens (in spring when the cherry blossom is on the trees).

 

[runner]

sorry helena

this is the image. (the trees were in full blossom last weekend)