Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion

[faust]

true. but don't you think youngsters are becoming increasingly precocious? with all this "awareness" about parenting, cognitive development, mozart for babies etc....i think in the ideal world parents would pay more attention to what kind of toys they buy for their children. the toy industry is pretty terrible, and almost as fickle as fashion.

Sure. The futile and frustrating (because it's futile) exercise in making a perfectly safe world has become a mania. That world does not exist (but what do they know about Buddhism, right?). I was merely stating that adolescense is not the starting point for developing normal human beings.

 

[czilla]

true. but don't you think youngsters are becoming increasingly precocious? with all this "awareness" about parenting, cognitive development, mozart for babies etc....

I think that's not a fundamental enough approach. First, you have to equip them with skills to digest, understand, and analyze literature (and other things). You have to develop a child's memory and mental abilities. And that is not being done in the US education system.

I think there's a trade off b/w raising precocious, curious youngsters vs. analystic ones... These days, you necessarily seem to get one or the other. I was in French school from maternelle to the lycee, and then to an American university --- what the French taught was very rigorous, didactic and stringent in terms of learning knowledge, facts, following rules. The American system is more touch and go with its facts -- how many history classes have we Americans been in where barely anyone in the room can date the treaties, beginnings, ends of wars, births/deaths of major figures? -- but it allows for creativity that just isn't encouraged and rarely exists among French students of the same age. I wonder if there's any school system that has managed to teach their students to digest, understand and analyze w/o dulling their curiosity? Private schools often do a better job of it, but since their tuition a year can rival that of a private university... O_o

+ awareness about parenting is smthing of an American obsession, but so many of those enrichment programs are so good.. and so affordable. Parental involvement --> kooky summer camps and after school programs --> precocious kids?

And as for Eggers and saying yes... Oh softgrey, he always makes me wanna say yes! His McSweeneys readings are smwhat legendary bc there's always some sort of party-starting gimmick. Alcohol is always available, but pirates, impromptu haircuts and duck duck goose aren't unheard of either... He's the publishing world's intellectual p*rnstar.

 

[softgrey]

And as for Eggers and saying yes... Oh softgrey, he always makes me wanna say yes! His McSweeneys readings are smwhat legendary bc there's always some sort of party-starting gimmick. Alcohol is always available, but pirates, impromptu haircuts and duck duck goose aren't unheard of either... He's the publishing world's intellectual p*rnstar.

hmm...sounds good...sign me up!!..
btw...i said yes...and i'm glad i did... B)

 

[softgrey]

in terms of raising kids...i think that rather than protecting them...exposing them to as much as possible ...good and bad...is probably the way i would go...with the idea that this would prepare them for practically anything in their path...

i think a child who has been exposed to more...has a more open mind as an adult...

**and i think that somehow this is where 'personal style' comes from...being exposed to many things ...taking a bit of everything you've been exposed to and putting it together in your own personal way...and this is why a person's style can (and usually does) change and evolve over time..as they are exposed to more and more things in their lifetime...

 

[tinuvielberen]

true. but don't you think youngsters are becoming increasingly precocious? with all this "awareness" about parenting, cognitive development, mozart for babies etc....i think in the ideal world parents would pay more attention to what kind of toys they buy for their children. the toy industry is pretty terrible, and almost as fickle as fashion.

I think youngsters are becoming more self-aware as well. I don't think I had any concept of my appearance until I was about 14 or so. Now pre-teens preen and fuss and worry about how they look.

Agreed on the toy industry, especially the massive dichotomy along gender lines. My nieces both want the silly pink dolls, but we try to buy them craft sets so that they can actually make things. And books.

 

[Fade to Black]

in terms of raising kids...i think that rather than protecting them...exposing them to as much as possible ...good and bad...is probably the way i would go...with the idea that this would prepare them for practically anything in their path...

i think a child who has been exposed to more...has a more open mind as an adult...

**and i think that somehow this is where 'personal style' comes from...being exposed to many things ...taking a bit of everything you've been exposed to and putting it together in your own personal way...and this is why a person's style can (and usually does) change and evolve over time..as they are exposed to more and more things in their lifetime...

agreed, word for word. i'll never be a parent, but i'll always be thankful for the liberal upbringing my parents put me through.

 

[tinuvielberen]

The kind of women that climb the corporate ladder are as vile as the men. It's not a sex thing, it's personality. I don't think they'll change anything. The only hope we had was the technology boom - when the suits could not do what the geeks did but needed the geeks' skills like air; so they had to make concessions. The tech boom is responsible for loosening of the dress code, but the suits are slowly creeping back since the .com crash.

There may be economic and business reasons why the suits wear suits...

Dr. Jeffrey L. Magee, consulting research psychologist surveyed 500 firms, from small business (100 employees and more) and Fortune 500 companies to associations. The survey was conducted from the Third Quarter 1997 through the Third Quarter 1998. Data was collected during on-site consultations, focus groups, and training workshops, through teleconference calls, and direct mail survey letters. Respondents were primarily through Human Resources, Personnel, Vice President of Operations, Presidents, and CEOs.
As predicted in the 1995 publication “America’s Going Down The Tube In A T-Shirt”, continually relaxed dress leads to relaxed manners, relaxed morals, relaxed productivity, and loss of individuality. Magee’s research findings reveal specifics:

• Decrease in ethical behavior.
• Decrease in polite, mannerly behavior.
• Increase in gutter language and conversation.
• Decrease in morality.
• Increase in provocative actions.
• Decrease in productivity and overall quality of work.
• Decrease in commitment and company loyalty.
• Increase in complaints to HR.
• Increase in litigation.
• Increase in tardiness.

http://www.conselle.com/Business_Programs/Low_Down_on_Dressing_Down.html

 

[travolta]

I wonder if there's any school system that has managed to teach their students to digest, understand and analyze w/o dulling their curiosity?

yes, if we could all go to country day schools-i have a friend who went to a school where people where applying to internships for Chloe in junior year interim! definately had a leg up!

agreed, word for word. i'll never be a parent, but i'll always be thankful for the liberal upbringing my parents put me through.

i had a couple different experiences. my first high school was your typical terrible public school. i was lucky enough to attend an arts high school for my last two years. saying it was liberal is putting it lightly..bisexuality was rampant and there was little or no rules..it did thankfully banish most adolescent insecurities and the teachers were like second parents. however, when you graduated your utopian bubble burst and a lot of kids found it hard adjusting to college or any sort of strict discipline. we all joked we were "ruined"..we could never attend a "real" school again. i think in the long run it is much better though, because the best education is experience and failure and having to think yourself out of a hole--teaches you that things don't run along a linear path..as much as those in authority would not like us to think...

Agreed on the toy industry, especially the massive dichotomy along gender lines. My nieces both want the silly pink dolls, but we try to buy them craft sets so that they can actually make things. And books.

i once worked at a high end childrens retail store and it made me so sad! there was an aisle sharply dividing the boys and girls side..each color coded, and hardly any parents would stray into either side! -except i guess for crafts-easels and such like you said. when a kid would play with a toy specified for the other gender the parents would swoop down and guide them away! no wonder there is gender inequality--we certainly haven't done away with the seeds of it!

 

[Spacemiu]

I went to a 'alternative school' started by a Indian philosopher named Krishnamurti and one of the main focuses of the school was to teach understanding and analysis of the world and of subjects. It was a very open mindd palce and I feel like I had more more chance to explore and understand thinsg than just be fed information. Like travolta I think I was "ruined". Befor that i went to a public school in LA that was like HELL .

 

[travolta]

i took this from the jurgi thread...it is a very insightful quote by cerfas

On culture:
Most cultural anthropologists (and they do know a thing or two about culture) refer to culture as brainwashing. Lots of them come up with nicer ways to say it, but essentially from a very young age you are being inculturated, taught how to behave and think and FEEL. School is the primary place where this is enforced. It's not really an evil or negative thing, but that is how culture works--it shapes us, in ways that we may be sure belong to us, it is still there. A good analogy for this is language. We probably all think we are free to express ourselves through language--and in a way, we really aren't. language by definition limits what we can communicate and the way in which we say it. Some cultures have words for a concept that other cultures cannot even conceive of, much less wrap their minds around. So we have a certain amount of choice within those limits, but the limits are there nonetheless, and in many ways have influence over the way our thoughts form.

it made me think of what i read in a book i've have already bought up a couple times in other threads, design for the real word: human ecology and social change by victor papanek. in one chapter lists several inhibitors that prevent designers/ people from effectively problem solving. cultural blocks is exactly what is sounds like. i have to quote his example to fully communicate what he means by this...

...And in each society a number of taboos endanger independent thinking. the classic eskimo nine-dot problem, which can befuddle the average westerner for hours, is solved by eskimos within minutes, since eskimo space concepts are quite different from ours. professor edward carpenter explains how the men of the aklavik tribe in alaska will draw reliable maps of small islands by waiting for night to close in and then drawing the amp by listening to the waves lapping at the island in the dark. in other words, the islands shape is discerned by a sort of aural radar. we are sometimes confused by eskimo art, for we have lost the eskimo's ability to look at a drawing from all sides simultaneously. while living with an eskimo tribe some years ago, i received magazines through the post. i found that my eskimo friends would form a circle around me, while i looked at pictures or read. neither in igloo nor hut was there any jostling for positions. my friends could read (or view pictures) as easily and quickly upside-down or sideways as if "correctly" positioned by noneskimo standards. i noticed that those eskimos living in cabins would frequently hang pictures upside down or sideways. nonlinear, aural space perception imposes fewer vertical and horizontal limitations of the eskimos' world view. it seems to me that this is a species-specific survival characteristics of the far North. I have accompanied Eskimo hunting parties, which, after the hunt, headed across fifty or more miles of featureless terrain to return to their group of igloos (Eskimos are equally astonished by our ability to cross Bloor Street in Toronto or Times Square in New York.)

I thought his point of space concepts was huge. westerners/and most people see things linearly, and consequently we lose the ability to perceive nuances on several different sensory levels, because we are unable to connect and think of understand things holistically. also, it affects our perception of time, and unfolding of a chain of events, how we move and relate to space. in college, i was lucky enough to have a drawing professor that had the ability to coax incredible artistic talent out of any student (even the most stiff, uber-linear, pragmatic architecture student) he basically taught us how to abandon linear thinking for a couple hours a day : see 'negative space' full bodied and made of the same substance as the figures we were drawing, untrain the manner in which we held and used our charcoal and basically lose ourselves. to me figure drawing was always a bit like sex basically it was the ability to find an affinity in the most mundane of things, and the idea of creating was to 'activate' something in our surroundings --that is the core of art. obviously, the more detachment a society has the less it will be able to appreciate anything--and have time for art. the japanese are held in high regard to have an understanding and connection to the metaphysical, but i think once upon a time we were all alike in this way. ok, enough 'deepness' for a morning...fashion is the catalyst!!

 

[travolta]

hm, my post didn't bump the thread.

 

[tott]

Yet another great thread to read. Can't believe how much interesting stuff I've been missing...

 

[tott]

i had to stop using my credit cards...it was too hard to keep up with them...

now i just use my debit card...it's the only way for me...
this way...if i don't have it ...i don't spend it....
i had become very good at juggling balances...borrowing from peter to pay paul...
it's a nasty little spiral you can get caught up in very easily...especially when you know that everyone around you is doing it too...

AMEN! I cut my cards years ago, I only have my debit! I sleep much more soundly this way.

 

[AlexN]

No credit or debit cards for me!

 

[maarit]

I don't have a credit card either. And I'm pretty opinionated about it. Telemarketers, better watch out!

 

[purechris]

Amex baby!!! I never overspend because it's due every month and I can track my spending that way....couldn't live without my debit card

I am so glad this thread got bumped. It's one of my favorite discussions on TFS.

interesting info travolta (BTW--did you ever get my PM from a while back?)

 

[tott]

OK, this thread was a good read with lots of tangents going here and there and everywhere...

I'd like to start my ramblings by expanding and adding a few random thoughts on faust's first post:

I certainly agree that the type of people who founded the US, and their culture (or lack thereof), has contributed to the heritage which can still be seen today.

But the circumstances during the foundation have also added a few twists, I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, US history is far from my specialty... The US was freeing itself from the tyranny of the Brits. At the core of the constitution lies the fact that government can't be trusted, not really. Hence the right to bear arms/form a militia and the stress on self-reliance.

This might mean that there is a slightly paranoid streak right at the core of the constitution. As little governmental interference as possible is preferred. This would certainly foster the myth of the self-made man, the notion that you can (or have to) do everything yourself by working hard enough. You make it happen. If you don't, it's your own laziness. Blame is placed on the poor, weak, homeless. Welfare, healthcare and so on is up to private insurance or goodwill. Minimum education is given for free to those who can't afford it any other way.

The humane way would be to let the government take care of these basic things, but since it can't be trusted and it is peoples own fault they need help anyway, well...

 

[tott]

I lived in Italy for almost 2 years, and it's a beautiful country filled with culture. People stress about "la bella figura" which basically means to be well-dressed, well-groomed. The people I met socially and at work were mostly very nice and cultured.

But Italy is also a country without a strong and flexible welfare system. Many, many people make very low wages or are out of a job. Traditionally they could turn to their huge families for support, the problem is that they do not exist anymore. Italy has the lowest nativity rate in Europe, people hesitate to produce children because they simply can't afford them. People live with their parents until their 30's because they can't afford to pay rent.

And then we have the ones who have fallen through the very large holes in the (practically non-existant) safety nets. Unemployed without families, gypsies who've never been let into the normal society... They are poor, arts and culture is a luxury they can't afford on any level.

When I first saw the favelas outside Milan I was totally shocked. Those things do not exist in modern Europe, I thought. Guess they do.

 

[Cirque Paris]

in terms of raising kids...i think that rather than protecting them...exposing them to as much as possible ...good and bad...is probably the way i would go...with the idea that this would prepare them for practically anything in their path...

i think a child who has been exposed to more...has a more open mind as an adult...

**and i think that somehow this is where 'personal style' comes from...being exposed to many things ...taking a bit of everything you've been exposed to and putting it together in your own personal way...and this is why a person's style can (and usually does) change and evolve over time..as they are exposed to more and more things in their lifetime...

Bravo to that.... suppression or reality in disguise I think isn't a good idea for any child.

 

[travolta]

thanks chris..i'm sorry i didn't respond ..i will! in regards to my lengthy post..i have to add i've been on this zen buddhist kick lately..but its not silly! it is...in my opinion, the exact stuff they taught me in art school..quite interseting..which focuses on aural? aura thinking and non linear thought. a good book i have to recommend reading is

the lives of a cell: notes of a biology watcher by lewis thomas. the back cover quote on the book "anticipates the kind of writing that will appear more and more frequently, as scientists take on the language of poetry in order to communicate human truths too mysterious for old-fashioned common sense." i love that...