Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion

[stilista]

The woman who wrote the book was just on TV. It was all very tongue-in-cheek and of course really just written to get publicity....but it's a best seller in France

 

[helena]

I duuno.... I see a lot of this as being a very accurate depiction of modern British culture. I am not sure that she is saying that the Brits are obsessed with sex so much as repressed about sex.

 

[fab_fifties_fille]

yeah I think she's hinting more towards repressed, hence Brit's always laughing off 'uncomfortable' sex situations etc like there's always something shameful about it. I saw the woman on tv stilista, it was quite interesting, I really dislike the not queueing thing I've noticed that when I've been in Paris.

 

[screenage]

The woman who wrote the book was just on TV. It was all very tongue-in-cheek and of course really just written to get publicity....but it's a best seller in France

Did you see her on richard and judy lol, the shame( i.e. of admitting I watch it).

 

[screenage]

Some truths, lots of generalization and myth.... I wonder if this woman who wrote it is blind to how other see her country?

SEX - France is a nation obsessed with sex. Their movies have to include sex with daughter, sex with mother, sex with stranger, sex at work. Our movies have Hugh Grant, theirs have incest.

DRINK - Go to France, Italy, Spain and there is a problem with the young and alcohol. Contrary to popular belief, their teens are not so well behaved because they were brought up with a glass of vin rouge at dinner. They are as desperate to get absolutely sloshed as our kids are at the weekend. I have seen French kids fights over the last sip in a bottle


PETS - How can a French woman call the English eccentric in their view to animals?!! There's dog poo everywhere on the streets of Paris - it's a big problem there and they love their little dogs more than any nation! As for dog perfume...well, there are whole shops devoted to the stuff, and whole shelves in Sephora. I don't know of a single English person to douse their dog in scent

CLUBBING - we have clubs for young people. They have clubs with separate parts for the kids, for mum, dad and the grandparents. The whole family goes out clubbing in the same car

QUEUEING - at least we do it. Half of Europe seems to think it's ok to 'pretend you don't notice there are 5 people in front of you....amble along....get to the front'. It's like a game for them. I'd rather be civilized and wait my turn, thanks.

HOOLIGANS - they exist everywhere. All over Europe. All over the world. Sadly...Has this woman been to Toulouse? To Marseille?

Fighting for the last sip,

 

[Mr-Dale]

CLUBBING - we have clubs for young people. They have clubs with separate parts for the kids, for mum, dad and the grandparents. The whole family goes out clubbing in the same car

QUEUEING - at least we do it. Half of Europe seems to think it's ok to 'pretend you don't notice there are 5 people in front of you....amble along....get to the front'. It's like a game for them. I'd rather be civilized and wait my turn, thanks.

I don't know if that first one was aimed at Europe too, but I have never seen that here. And the second one is pretty confusing. People wait in line in Europe as well as they anyplace else...

 

[travolta]

I love America too and our culture does scare me, being a woman who would like to have children one day...it makes me wonder will I be strong enough to teach my children to live for more than just money and material things. Faust, your post really has me thinking.

i'm not trying to convert you..bear with me, as i myself am just reading up on this stuff, but i would suggest giving them around pre-adolescence -- a jack kerouac book and an intro to eastern philosophy. forgot therapy and after school specials...imo i think if you look at them as being these ulta curious, ulta sensitive people and see it as a great advantage because they are just forming their ideals and are experimenting with different things. its a great time to be putting their energy in finding out about things outside themselves...cause they will already be obsessed with that!

edit: also introduce them to john cage!

 

[PrinceOfCats]

Jack Kerouac shot his wife dead. Perhaps not a great role model.

 

[travolta]

hm, didn't know that. but if he makes great works i'm sure they shouldn't be censored because of that? oh, and bob dylan.

 

[czilla]

But we die and there's the rub. Just because you're in cut off jeans with a 'jerk shirt' or in a double titty suit you can still be hit by a bus while crossing the street, you can still be stuck on the 90th floor with no safe way down.

So: be unfashionable. Wear what you like how you like, cheap and expensive. Love your neighbor as thy self, read a few tricky books every now and then, smile, laugh...don't let these designers get the best of you, don't put them on such a high pedestal.

Man. What a lovely collection of reading material. I've had rollicking discussions about American Enlightenment, buff Australian babes, and azn boys with style.. all prompted by this thread. Thanks much, all. ^^

Birdofparadise, well said and it reminds me so much of one my favorite artistic screeds ever.. penned by author/publishing wonder, Dave Eggers:

The thing is, I really like saying yes. I like new things, projects, plans, getting people together and doing something, trying something, even when it's corny or stupid. I am not good at saying no. And I do not get along with people who say no. When you die, and it really could be this afternoon, under the same bus wheels I'll stick my head if need be, you will not be happy about having said no. You will be kicking your *** about all the no's you've said. No to that opportunity, or no to that trip to Nova Scotia or no to that night out, or no to that project or no to that person who wants to be naked with you but you worry about what your friends will say.

No is for wimps. No is for p*ssies. No is to live small and embittered, cherishing the opportunities you missed because they might have sent the wrong message.

from http://www.armchairnews.com/freelance/eggers.html

It's a great essay, and if you get bored, do skip to the bottom... It's mostly about elitism, but with Dave Eggers zest and rage.

 

[czilla]

i would suggest giving them around pre-adolescence -- a jack kerouac book and an intro to eastern philosophy. forgot therapy and after school specials...imo i think if you look at them as being these ulta curious, ulta sensitive people and see it as a great advantage because they are just forming their ideals and are experimenting with different things. its a great time to be putting their energy in finding out about things outside themselves...cause they will already be obsessed with that!

edit: also introduce them to john cage!

Huzzah! It's such a gift to be taken seriously by the adults around you, from childhood to adolescence, and nothing confers that like books, music and heady debates... Those'll drive that curiosity like nothing else. I think *Happiness* mentioned awhile back on the Inspiration thread that curiosity kept her going.... So true.

 

[travolta]

^that's a great quote you posted and thanks for the link. i feel like i want to go reform some schools now! kids/ curiousity -- now that is magic.

 

[softgrey]

czilla...you make me want to say 'yes'...

 

[heykitten]

Jack Kerouac shot his wife dead. Perhaps not a great role model.

That was William S. Borough. He was a mentor to Kerouac, Ginsberg, and the rest of the Beats.

 

[tinuvielberen]

Back on the topic of how culture affects fashion...how about corporate culture?

In the U.S., the workplace continues to be a fairly hostile place for women, who tend to earn less and get promoted less quickly than their male peers. Because fashion is primarily an interest of women, it tends to be trivialized, and fashionistas treated with some contempt. Therefore working women in the U.S. tend to adopt a uniform that states "I'm serious, I fit in with the corporate culture, I am a team player." Except in a few industries, quirky, individualist dressing is bad for a woman's career. Mass production caters to this desire to fit in, and explains why there's an Ann Taylor on every block it seems.

As the male population becomes metrosexualized, and women rise higher in management, that "uniform" may change. One can only hope!

 

[softgrey]

i don't think men are able to be 'quirky or individualist' in the workplace either though...so i don't really see this as being a male vs female issue...work is not necessarily the appropriate place to express your individuality...since you are being hired to represent the company you work for, not yourself...unless, of course, you are self-employed..

i think that vanity in general is somewhat frowned upon by society at large...which is why people may have more of a problem with people who are seen as placing too much emphasis on appearances...it is one of the seven deadly sins...not historically considered an attractive quality...

 

[travolta]

i always liked the idea of everyone wearing beige or nude unitards...if you got it flaunt it..if you don't its a matter of opinion that would be quickly stripped away much like a nudist camp. or everyone could wear one side fits all mumus with flamboyent floral print for less restriction...i think the key would be universal bad taste/or would it be good taste? love/peace of mind would spread across the world like wildfire.

 

[faust]

i'm not trying to convert you..bear with me, as i myself am just reading up on this stuff, but i would suggest giving them around pre-adolescence -- a jack kerouac book and an intro to eastern philosophy. forgot therapy and after school specials...imo i think if you look at them as being these ulta curious, ulta sensitive people and see it as a great advantage because they are just forming their ideals and are experimenting with different things. its a great time to be putting their energy in finding out about things outside themselves...cause they will already be obsessed with that!

edit: also introduce them to john cage!

I think that's not a fundamental enough approach. First, you have to equip them with skills to digest, understand, and analyze literature (and other things). You have to develop a child's memory and mental abilities. And that is not being done in the US education system.

 

[faust]

Back on the topic of how culture affects fashion...how about corporate culture?

In the U.S., the workplace continues to be a fairly hostile place for women, who tend to earn less and get promoted less quickly than their male peers. Because fashion is primarily an interest of women, it tends to be trivialized, and fashionistas treated with some contempt. Therefore working women in the U.S. tend to adopt a uniform that states "I'm serious, I fit in with the corporate culture, I am a team player." Except in a few industries, quirky, individualist dressing is bad for a woman's career. Mass production caters to this desire to fit in, and explains why there's an Ann Taylor on every block it seems.

As the male population becomes metrosexualized, and women rise higher in management, that "uniform" may change. One can only hope!

The kind of women that climb the corporate ladder are as vile as the men. It's not a sex thing, it's personality. I don't think they'll change anything. The only hope we had was the technology boom - when the suits could not do what the geeks did but needed the geeks' skills like air; so they had to make concessions. The tech boom is responsible for loosening of the dress code, but the suits are slowly creeping back since the .com crash.

 

[travolta]

I think that's not a fundamental enough approach. First, you have to equip them with skills to digest, understand, and analyze literature (and other things). You have to develop a child's memory and mental abilities. And that is not being done in the US education system.

true. but don't you think youngsters are becoming increasingly precocious? with all this "awareness" about parenting, cognitive development, mozart for babies etc....i think in the ideal world parents would pay more attention to what kind of toys they buy for their children. the toy industry is pretty terrible, and almost as fickle as fashion.