Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion
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*Happiness*
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softgrey said:true...the NYC scene..especially downtown...was very very very avant garde in the eighties and early nineties...but i think it moved with the art scene...the art scene here is really dead...i think it's very interesting in london right now as well as the cities you mentioned faust...
my parents just returned from europe and were going on and on..about how nobody was 'dressed' anymore...they are not fashion people...but they enjoy good style...and they said that they felt that europe had lost some of its flair...that things had changed...
...
Softgrey, I agree with you and your parents. Now that I haven't been to Europe to witness the fashion evolution (if I can use that word loosely) I have noticed a change here in the states. There seems to be an "anything goes and is acceptable" attitude taking place. Like being fashionable isn't fashionable now. I don't understand.....
softgrey
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^^yep...it's an epidemic...dressed down...
faust...i also really agree that it is not fashionable to be smart...and as soon as you show some intelligence...many people are threatened and start acting very defensively...very frustrating...
i can't believe how many times i've heard people say 'you think too much'...
are they kidding?!?!?!...most people don't think ENOUGH ...IMHO...
i was recently talking to a 'designer' who was making fun of avant garde designs that you can't figure out how to put on when see thm on a hanger...my reaction was ...but that's what's so cool...figuring it out and then realizing what a clever design it is..(ie-my circle swtr from cdg...when you lay it flat it's a circle)...it seemed like he was just upset because he couldn't really figure it out..so he was threatened by it...CRAZY!!!...why not have someone explain it to you so you can understand and appreciate it...rather than run away from it because it's 'too hard' to figure out...
faust...i also really agree that it is not fashionable to be smart...and as soon as you show some intelligence...many people are threatened and start acting very defensively...very frustrating...
i can't believe how many times i've heard people say 'you think too much'...
are they kidding?!?!?!...most people don't think ENOUGH ...IMHO...
i was recently talking to a 'designer' who was making fun of avant garde designs that you can't figure out how to put on when see thm on a hanger...my reaction was ...but that's what's so cool...figuring it out and then realizing what a clever design it is..(ie-my circle swtr from cdg...when you lay it flat it's a circle)...it seemed like he was just upset because he couldn't really figure it out..so he was threatened by it...CRAZY!!!...why not have someone explain it to you so you can understand and appreciate it...rather than run away from it because it's 'too hard' to figure out...
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*Happiness*
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Sybarite said:Very clever analysis, Faust. I couldn't agree more. I love America but it scares me more and more.
Now I feel guilty about my cheap denunciation
I love America too and our culture does scare me, being a woman who would like to have children one day...it makes me wonder will I be strong enough to teach my children to live for more than just money and material things. Faust, your post really has me thinking.
*Happiness*
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softgrey said:^^yep...it's an epidemic...dressed down...
faust...i also really agree that it is not fashionable to be smart...and as soon as you show some intelligence...many people are threatened and start acting very defensively...very frustrating...
i can't believe how many times i've heard people say 'you think too much'...
are they kidding?!?!?!...most people don't think ENOUGH ...IMHO...
i was recently talking to a 'designer' who was making fun of avant garde designs that you can't figure out how to put on when see thm on a hanger...my reaction was ...but that's what's so cool...figuring it out and then realizing what a clever design it is..(ie-my circle swtr from cdg...when you lay it flat it's a circle)...it seemed like he was just upset because he couldn't really figure it out..so he was threatened by it...CRAZY!!!...why not have someone explain it to you so you can understand and appreciate it...rather than run away from it because it's 'too hard' to figure out...
I couldn't agree more. That's the whole Television (or as my dad says Tell-A-Vision, there is an outside force telling your brain a vision when your brain should be developing it's own visions) mentality (someone wanting things explained explicitly instead of using a little brain juice to work it out themselves).
kimair
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softgrey said:
you're so right, getting dressed does take a lot of effort, and in this rush, rush, hurry up society we live in, people don't take the time to do that. it's much easier to throw on some uggs and a juicy sweatsuit to go to the movies, or shopping.
i sit at a desk all day in my office, and i make an effort (most days) to get dressed for work, which some people i work with think is ridiculous. i wear heels and skirts, dresses, makeup, etc., and i get the comments about my shoes (because they're usually 3") and how i look so nice, but then there's a backlash; "why does she even care? we sit in an office all day."
on another note, i did have a certain aesthetic before coming to tFS; i was an appreciator of fashion, but really didn't know much about certain designers and kept to the ones i did know. being here, interacting with people with different backgrounds/tastes has opened my eyes to people like anne-valerie hash, ann demeulemeester, etc.
strawberry daiquiri
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It's interesting, in Britain for example, great effort is put into keeping up the appearance of a cultured nation. The Royal Shakespeare Company, Royal Ballet… etc. funded by huge grants, while accessed to by only a tiny percentile. It’s the state that can afford to be interested in culture, where as networks interested in making money, happily have people pay their television licenses just to watch other people (reality t.v. ).
The spread of culture, fashion etc. has (in most cases) always corresponded with the spread of wealth. It’s not really a coincidence that France, regarded always as highly-cultured, hadn’t had before ‘La Belle Epoque’, and haven't since had, a weak economy, civil wars, famine… So it's relatively easy to educate yourself in aesthethically rich things when you don't have all the other pressing issues to worry about...
Relating things back to me (...as I would tend to do
), I don’t resent or wonder why Ireland, for instance, never had a fashion scene, because (until recently), people had very little or no money, and settled for the culture (writing and music) which didn’t involve buying canvases, or paints, or good clothes, or perfumes. Similar situations apply to all the poorer regions of Europe. How much of Russia’s culture was enjoyed by Russians outside of the minute elite? Just like when oanadobre began a thread asking how poor, but aesthetically interested, Romanian women could possibly begin to fulfil their needs without any financial means. By the end of the discussion, it was decided unanimously that they couldn’t.
This being why I hate referring to nations of very different histories and tradition as ‘Europe’, but I do think ‘Europe’ is generally borrowing too much of American (similarly broad term ) culture. Even if American television and film is more diluted on the other side of the Atlantic, you only need visit the Star Style section to learn that the same mediocre actors and singers are acting and singing, in that mediocre way, for far too many people. And the extent of this seems to be expanding if anything.
Agree with what faust said about the U.S… (and yes, with the rest of his pamphlet
) but a lot of the people who originally went there, did so also because they weren’t afraid of hard work… manual labour. They were opportunists willing to work for what they wanted and left behind their friends who may have preferred to appreciate things, think about things, but be quite unwilling to apply themselves to physical projects. So yes, a very distinctive personality make up was the original result.
I'm not sure what I've been saying, so I think it's best I stop.
).The spread of culture, fashion etc. has (in most cases) always corresponded with the spread of wealth. It’s not really a coincidence that France, regarded always as highly-cultured, hadn’t had before ‘La Belle Epoque’, and haven't since had, a weak economy, civil wars, famine… So it's relatively easy to educate yourself in aesthethically rich things when you don't have all the other pressing issues to worry about...
Relating things back to me (...as I would tend to do
), I don’t resent or wonder why Ireland, for instance, never had a fashion scene, because (until recently), people had very little or no money, and settled for the culture (writing and music) which didn’t involve buying canvases, or paints, or good clothes, or perfumes. Similar situations apply to all the poorer regions of Europe. How much of Russia’s culture was enjoyed by Russians outside of the minute elite? Just like when oanadobre began a thread asking how poor, but aesthetically interested, Romanian women could possibly begin to fulfil their needs without any financial means. By the end of the discussion, it was decided unanimously that they couldn’t. This being why I hate referring to nations of very different histories and tradition as ‘Europe’, but I do think ‘Europe’ is generally borrowing too much of American (similarly broad term
) culture. Even if American television and film is more diluted on the other side of the Atlantic, you only need visit the Star Style section to learn that the same mediocre actors and singers are acting and singing, in that mediocre way, for far too many people. And the extent of this seems to be expanding if anything. Agree with what faust said about the U.S… (and yes, with the rest of his pamphlet
) but a lot of the people who originally went there, did so also because they weren’t afraid of hard work… manual labour. They were opportunists willing to work for what they wanted and left behind their friends who may have preferred to appreciate things, think about things, but be quite unwilling to apply themselves to physical projects. So yes, a very distinctive personality make up was the original result.I'm not sure what I've been saying, so I think it's best I stop.
ThisHollywoodLfe
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Before i begin i just want to say this is a fascinating thread, and the responses are great.
The money breeds compent thing, I think does apply because I will buy a piece here or there and people always, just jokingly, are like, is this a diesel or cavalli or whoever room. But i think because i do think about what i wear everyday but at the same time i believe that the contempt is only from a lack of understand of why you would wear a two hundred dollar shirt or why you (the person wearing the clothes) likes a certain piece enough to buy it. I agree with the point that where there is no money there is no fashion culture, I could say a lot about this, but in short economics and location and have a lot to do where culture develops. Another in the US, reading, debating and knowledge are almost put down becasue its a culture based on baseball and all this other stuff. But the US is very working class,and that is another reason for the locations of the boutiques in major cities. I lost my track of though. But great thread.
The money breeds compent thing, I think does apply because I will buy a piece here or there and people always, just jokingly, are like, is this a diesel or cavalli or whoever room. But i think because i do think about what i wear everyday but at the same time i believe that the contempt is only from a lack of understand of why you would wear a two hundred dollar shirt or why you (the person wearing the clothes) likes a certain piece enough to buy it. I agree with the point that where there is no money there is no fashion culture, I could say a lot about this, but in short economics and location and have a lot to do where culture develops. Another in the US, reading, debating and knowledge are almost put down becasue its a culture based on baseball and all this other stuff. But the US is very working class,and that is another reason for the locations of the boutiques in major cities. I lost my track of though. But great thread.
Faust, your post is wonderful. I take my hat off to you, and thanks for spending the time. I'd like to respond in more detail, but I'll read it a few more times before attempting to do so, and probably won't, in the end, anyway! I think you identified the key things - (1) the people that "made" America and (2) the lack of indigenous culture (again without any disrespect to the native Americans). It's all so clear from those two starting points....
First of all, I want to say that this has been a wonderful and thought provoking thread...
It's nice to be able to have a conversation such as this and step away from the more mundane things we like to talk about sometimes!
There's been much food for thought in this thread so far and I want thank Faust especially for taking the time to write such an interesting post. It does seem to reveal the current state of affairs in the US although it's a little depressing since you end up feeling powerless to do much about it...that might seem like a cop-out to some of you, but I'm not as idealistic as I used to be...
What can you really say?
Maybe all you can do is try to develop yourself as much as possible and hope that makes an impact somehow...
It's nice to be able to have a conversation such as this and step away from the more mundane things we like to talk about sometimes!
There's been much food for thought in this thread so far and I want thank Faust especially for taking the time to write such an interesting post. It does seem to reveal the current state of affairs in the US although it's a little depressing since you end up feeling powerless to do much about it...that might seem like a cop-out to some of you, but I'm not as idealistic as I used to be...
What can you really say?
Maybe all you can do is try to develop yourself as much as possible and hope that makes an impact somehow...
helena
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faust - very very intersesting to read your thoughts. I will take some time to digest. The first thing that comes to mind however.....have you read Somerset Maugham's 'Of Human Bondage' or (less likely) A.J Cronin's 'The Stars Look Down'. A lot of the themes you raise remind me of those books.
I remember someone quoting that Camus passage about politics - in fact he (my friend) said rather pompously that 'politics is for the mediocrities'. I am not sure thats the next progession of what Camus said.
I think it would be interesting to see the views of any Australian members, the heritage of whose counrty arguably is similar to that of the US (albeit with a couple of hunred years less to develop.
Anyway I think I almost owe it to myself to take a trip to the US to see how things are & make up my mind about it based on 1st hand experience rather than 2nd hand experience through its exported culture.
thanks very much for taking the time!
I remember someone quoting that Camus passage about politics - in fact he (my friend) said rather pompously that 'politics is for the mediocrities'. I am not sure thats the next progession of what Camus said.
I think it would be interesting to see the views of any Australian members, the heritage of whose counrty arguably is similar to that of the US (albeit with a couple of hunred years less to develop.
Anyway I think I almost owe it to myself to take a trip to the US to see how things are & make up my mind about it based on 1st hand experience rather than 2nd hand experience through its exported culture.
thanks very much for taking the time!
