Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion

[softgrey]

Agree with what faust said about the U.S… (and yes, with the rest of his pamphlet ) but a lot of the people who originally went there, did so also because they weren’t afraid of hard work… manual labour. They were opportunists willing to work for what they wanted and left behind their friends who may have preferred to appreciate things, think about things, but be quite unwilling to apply themselves to physical projects. So yes, a very distinctive personality make up was the original result.

strawberry very accurately describes my family's personal history and migration to the united states in the late 50's...

 

[softgrey]

exactement!!!

said the ugg-wearing scot...

 

[helena]

touche. they aren't even proper uggs. they are bloody rocketdogs.aaaargh. we all make mistakes. i have fully repented for that.

 

[softgrey]

actually...if they aren't uggs...then i think it's more original...
i like rocketdog...

i think you are absolved of that fashion sin...

 

[tealady]

Before i begin i just want to say this is a fascinating thread, and the responses are great.

I agree with the point that where there is no money there is no fashion culture, I could say a lot about this, but in short, economics and location and have a lot to do where culture develops.

I think this depends on how one defines fashion and culture. Even in very poor places, there is someone who, by the twist of a collar or the pleat in a skirt, manages to create fashion for themselves. So perhaps we mean that where there is no money, there is no commercial fashion??

Love this discussion. Thanks, Faust for such a thoughtful response!!

For centuries in the US, and of course other places, people created their own culture. Considering the frontier culture for instance, they made their own music for celebrations, they danced and danced and danced at every given opportunity, they formed choirs and sang, they sketched and drew and painted. It's just that we don't always consider this "naive" culture to be high culture. When was the last time you bought a ticket to watch a square dance?

Our parish has a really exceptional music program. The choir, assisted by piano, organ, drums, bass guitar, and often brass section & string quartet, is superb! Sunday after Sunday, I am given the gift of fabulous live music. After the cd release concert for one of our choir members, I was reflecting on how little live music the average person hears nowadays.

We have relegated culture to the "professionals" and apart from houses of worship which incorporate music into their services, I don't know of another accessible source of free, live music on a regular, weekly basis. Again, I think this is back to time and the alleged lack of it in modern life. In fact, we have as much time as we ever had; we just choose to use our time differently.

Now, having said all this, the African-American community in which I live & work is alive with "amateur" culture. The standard in many cases is "professional" and, for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this discussion, paid opportunities are often not sought or offered.

Regional culture, driven largely by the existence of pockets of "ethnic" communities who shared language and common cultural touchpoints brought from the "old country," has been obliterated by increases in mobility and television. These self-selected seekers after the streets paved with gold put their emphasis on work and education. Culture just came along for the ride. As the generations passed, that "folk" culture became more inaccessible and consequently less valuable.

Getting on soapbox now: IMHO, television is the devil incarnate! Yes, there are some worthwhile, educational programs but the mass commercialization of every aspect of the genre and the way that it has turned the majority of the population into staring drones for hours on end will be the death of whatever sparks of intellectual life are left. Getting off soapbox now.

 

[faust]

faust - very very intersesting to read your thoughts. I will take some time to digest. The first thing that comes to mind however.....have you read Somerset Maugham's 'Of Human Bondage' or (less likely) A.J Cronin's 'The Stars Look Down'. A lot of the themes you raise remind me of those books.

I remember someone quoting that Camus passage about politics - in fact he (my friend) said rather pompously that 'politics is for the mediocrities'. I am not sure thats the next progession of what Camus said.

I think it would be interesting to see the views of any Australian members, the heritage of whose counrty arguably is similar to that of the US (albeit with a couple of hunred years less to develop.

Anyway I think I almost owe it to myself to take a trip to the US to see how things are & make up my mind about it based on 1st hand experience rather than 2nd hand experience through its exported culture.

thanks very much for taking the time!

Thank you, everyone, for such great feedback.


Helena, unfortunately I haven't read these books, although I've heard nothing but good about Maugham. Maybe, you can share some thoughts from them?

I think that Camus did not mean to go that route. I think what he meant was that people with high moral standards don't go into politics. Politics are controlled by the sharks, the cunning, mean souls. It's just getting to the top of the food chain, which the predators achieve best. Politics (namely the power that the politics grants the politician) is a trip that no drug can match.

Luxmode - looks like we've went through similar experiences (and I'm sure many others). The choice of taking yourself out of this society usually comes after the feeling of utter powerlessness to change things. It's the only logical choice. It comes with age (well, with experience) - after all, how many times can one run into a brick wall?

 

[purechris]

again, I must say how much I'm enjoying this discussion. Thanks for reviving it and thanks to everyone for their comments....

On NPR this morning was an interesting discussion of youths hanging out in the train stations in London and harrassing employees and passengers. How it had gotten to a point that certain stations were threatening. To curb this problem the transit authority started pumping in classical music (Mozart, Bach, etc). Interestingly enough the kids started to leave. I found it very sad that this music would actually send people away and thought it was right in line with this topic.

Of course it also reminded me of the "chav culture" thread too...

 

[As You Like It]

I think, and this ties into the Midwest Style thread, that in certain parts of the country with a very, very strong working-class heritage and culture, that fashion, especially very striking, showy, ostentatious, or notably expensive clothing is seen as almost "sinful," definitely wasteful, and entirely frivolous, with little redeeming value. There is also the entire country's founding history, when the continent was a refuge for religious extremists. The anti-worldly fervor of the Puritans and Quakers colors the broader culture's acceptance of things like art and fashion even today.

Speaking as a bit of an iconoclast who grew up in a very conservative part of the country, I know that many people are likely to write you off if you dress oddly or are very passionate about the arts, especially the performing arts. I went through a lot of mockery in my highschool years because I didn't buy the Z. Cavaricci, and wore a lot of wildly colored vintage dresses and home-made accessories. Not conforming is seen as being disrespectful to the mores of the majority, and nonconformists are disrespected in turn.

Even still, though I live in a large city, I find that people are likely to look down on me or find me suspicious or think I am flaky because I don't dress, act, or believe in the ways I am expected to. One of my bosses, in fact, thinks I'm a real loose cannon, in part because I dress kind of funky. The expectation is GAP dronewear not knee-length skirts and argyle tights.

 

[Spacemiu]

As far as casual fashions go, i don't mind them, i wear jeans almost every day, i like them , I don't see any thing wrong with that. I don't whant to wear suit trousers, thats not me.

I think times have changed and the way we dress is very diffrent than the way we dressed in the 40's or 50's when it was much more formal.

In terms of fashion and culture , I think cultures that are more awaer of art are going to have more of a 'eye' for fashion and willing to dress diffrently. America has a very conformast culture that does not encoarage the arts, so for msot people they don't think about fashion as being intresting.

 

[birdofparadise]

I wonder sometimes though to which we give more effort: what we put on or thinking about what other people think of what we've put on.

There may be something to the gruesome moral of life being too short. I believe we're simply taking our places at the same table others have eaten at through the years. Some choose to express themselves in haute couture, others do it in oversized jeans and white tee shirts long enough to be nightgowns.

It's important, however, to avoid the same generalizations and judgements--which is difficult to do, we're only human. Nonetheless, as much as I love fashion, I do feel there has to be something higher than that, there has to be an attachment to ideas about the world, about shaping an intellect--which almost suggests to me to use the clothes as a means to an end. Living in our modern times though, I understand that, of course, there are designers who are willing to shape their esthetic to appeal to my conflicting interests. It's all be thought about before. It's all big business.

I was also thinking that fashion may be very well shaped by the idea of time, that people dress down in this fast food kind of way simply because they haven't the time to think about who and what they are and if they'd like to express that though fashion or not. Thinking and intellectualizing were very much attached to fashion at a particular point simply because people had the time to do it. A past Westwood interview hit that nail on the head:

Vivienne Westwood, POP Magazine, Autumn/Winter 2002:

I don't think people are more tolerant, actually. In general everybody's got more conservative, because everybody's wearing these mass-market clothes. Anybody might wear a baseball cap--the President might wear a baseball cap...You have to feel sorry for somebody like that because you know they're not thinking, they never have thought'. Andy Warhol remarked that the great thing about Coca Cola is that it doesn't matter who you are - the President's bottle of Coke won't be any better than yours. But Westwood sees the mass market's spectacle of democracy as something to overthrow, not celebrate. In many ways - perversely for someone who dressed Adam And The Ants - she has become the antithesis of Pop.

'There was an advert by Nike: "Join the elite",' she says, visibly bristling with disbelief that such a mass-market brand dared to claim the word. 'There aren't elites today! There's a moneyed oligarchy, of course, but an elite is actually nothing to do with money, it's to do with people who have ideas and can judge value.'

She's offended by Nike's blasphemy because she believes in elitism. 'But democracy and elitism are probably incompatible, actually. I'm afraid that this is very unpleasant for people to swallow, but in the past you had servants, so not everybody had to wash their own windows and then get their kids to school and everything. So now you have people who are overworked and others who are all on the dole with nothing to do, and they'd probably quite like to come and wash your windows if you'd only ask them...I dont know. I'm not saying that you can do that; you can't put the clock back. But in order to think, you have to have time.'

Her utopian vision seems to be one of a hierarchical society with a culture led by a leisured bourgeoisie that has time to think - hence her fascination with the Paris salons. Here she refers to her favourite thinker: 'Bertrand Russel coined a phrase, "indolent cultured scepticism". And what that means is that you have to have time.' (End)

I don't know if I feel that people today cannot work and think at the same time or if I agree with the assement or support the idea of a hierarchical society with the thinking class on top (a little too Bloomsbury for me). Nonetheless, the mix and jumble of influences may certainly be a sign of the times and an indication of something far bigger than 'fashion' itself.

 

[PrinceOfCats]

in the case of the guys, they don't want to wear smart trousers or shoes

Lisping, affected mannequins and dullard boors won't get between me and my double-breasted suit with twin-pleat slacks...

 

[As You Like It]

Lisping, affected mannequins and dullard boors won't get between me and my double-breasted suit with twin-pleat slacks...

I wish my husband thought as you do! He's got a similar build, complexion, and hairstyle, and would look marvelous if he dressed up more, but he prefers baggy shorts and enormous shirts. *sigh*

 

[helena]

thanks birdofparadise - I think your quoting ms westwood is rather appropriate here - she is always interested in & talking about high culture in particular & almost always has a disparaging view of the way we are today (culturally). I have often found her extremely snobbish in her views but more recently I have found she talks a lot of sense. wouldn't it be good if she were to join this thread!

as you like it - I have often admired your gusto & enthusiasm for clothes/fashion - from the way you always post pics of your outfits on mannequins to your clear refusal to conform to the middle american stereotype (as evienced by some of the pics on the thread you mentioned). Keep swimming upstream girl!

Faust - I agree about Camus's meaning. I think to say that politics is for the masses is to miss the point. Actually what you said about the power being held by those of little moral fibre is exactly what the seond book I referred to above is about - its incredibly sad but so true. Its the shallow, insensitve, often less intelligent people in life who are the ones who rise to the top eshelons of socitey & control it. G Bush is a prime candidate. Its years since I read Maugham but i may reaquaint myself.

fashion for me, like all other forms of cultural expression is about passion, rebellion, love, hate, reaction, anger and beauty. It's about being alive in and to this big diverse world of ours. culture is not fuelled by lethargy or apathy which is what we mostly have in the Uk today....well we do have binge drinking - thats our youth movement . Vivre la revolution! yeh right!

 

[birdofparadise]

In thinking about Westwood design in connection with her comments, I think she was trying to say that being super fashionable...or fashionable at all really is just as bad as having no style. All you're seeing is visuals. None of it is important. All of it has changed and will change again, its meant to be fluid, to be both serious and silly. Perhaps fashion really should be taken a bit more lightly if only to encourage people to wear whatever they'd like as long as they're doing something productive, contributing in some way, some shape to society overall. I think sometimes fashion has this Invasion of the Body Snatchers mentality; designers are not only trying to give you a look but also to take you over by trying to trick you into thinking that wearing a certain set of clothes will give you or improve your identity. But we die and there's the rub. Just because you're in cut off jeans with a 'jerk shirt' or in a double titty suit you can still be hit by a bus while crossing the street, you can still be stuck on the 90th floor with no safe way down.

So: be unfashionable. Wear what you like how you like, cheap and expensive. Love your neighbor as thy self, read a few tricky books every now and then, smile, laugh...don't let these designers get the best of you, don't put them on such a high pedestal.

 

[Estella*]

So: be unfashionable. Wear what you like how you like, cheap and expensive. Love your neighbor as thy self, read a few tricky books every now and then, smile, laugh...don't let these designers get the best of you, don't put them on such a high pedestal.

amen!

 

[As You Like It]

Helena, thank you! I do have a lot of fun with fashion.

The reason I have so much of my wardrobe on digital photograph is that I photograph things that I have made to use as part of my professional portfolio. And also, I don't photograph well, myself, so things are shown much to their advantage on my dummy.

 

[softgrey]

Not conforming is seen as being disrespectful to the mores of the majority, and nonconformists are disrespected in turn.

i think i just had an epiphany...
i've never hear anyone put it so succinctly...thank you as you like it...

 

[*Happiness*]

you're so right, getting dressed does take a lot of effort, and in this rush, rush, hurry up society we live in, people don't take the time to do that. it's much easier to throw on some uggs and a juicy sweatsuit to go to the movies, or shopping.
on another note, i did have a certain aesthetic before coming to tFS; i was an appreciator of fashion, but really didn't know much about certain designers and kept to the ones i did know. being here, interacting with people with different backgrounds/tastes has opened my eyes to people like anne-valerie hash, ann demeulemeester, etc.

Same here Kimair. Being a part of the tfs family has taught me alot and I know I will continue to learn, develop and increase my knowledge and appreciation for fashion, culture and life.

 

[Fade to Black]

heh i feel certain parts of this thread were directed at me

good thread though, helps me put things into perspective

 

[pointup]

I think, and this ties into the Midwest Style thread, that in certain parts of the country with a very, very strong working-class heritage and culture, that fashion, especially very striking, showy, ostentatious, or notably expensive clothing is seen as almost "sinful," definitely wasteful, and entirely frivolous, with little redeeming value. There is also the entire country's founding history, when the continent was a refuge for religious extremists. The anti-worldly fervor of the Puritans and Quakers colors the broader culture's acceptance of things like art and fashion even today.

I'm not sure what I can bring to the table as a rather naive seventeen year old but I shall try .

All the aspects of this topic are hard to digest.

I've read through all the posts and As You Like It's was, for me, the most relatable. I come from an extremely humble upper Midwest background. Within my family anyone with a desire for high fashion is looked down upon. My grandmother has most likely never heard of Prada or Louis Vuitton and if she ever did she would probably scoff at the prices. She will never buy anything more than JC Penney for herself. She finds it so extremely frivolous. The family I come from places little to no importance upon material goods. Nothing either of my grandparents have done is for show...

I'm having a little trouble articulating my point.. I think what I'm trying to say is that just because my grandmother wears a sweatshirt and jeans everyday means she is lazy or uncultured. In fact my two grandmothers are the two most intelligent women I have ever met.. It's part of the moral structure of there being.. Fashion is seen as just another material evil.

One issue I'd like to address is the seeming lack of respect of young people. In church I see almost every youth wearing jeans or completely casual khakis. Anytime a sports team has to "dress up" for a game the vast majority think a jean skirt is dressed up because it's a skirt. No heels are ever worn.. No blouses seem to appear.. Youth have lost the ability to dress up

Now in high school I definately see the "ADD" aspect. Everything is seeming to be fed to us.. I was talking with my Calculus teacher the other day and we were talking about how teens want to be told what to do, what they are learning. No deduction skills are being taught. No creativity... Even english teachers feed us interpretations, forumulas for writing papers, what our literature is symbolizing... I really don't like this direction in public schools ..

Wow, I feel quite brainless next to all of you.. Perhaps I'll come post something after grad school..