Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion

[Mr-Dale]

actually mr dale...at least in america...it's better now in some ways...at least now there are some h&m's and zara's and club monacos...NONE of which are american companies btw...but all of these offer stylish pieces for those on a budget...until 5 years ago...we didn't even have that...when i was your age and living on long island...everyone shopped at the mall...but the mall was a fraction of the size they are now and there weren't many stores to choose from...

Well, the thing here in Europe is, or at least in Holland: we ONLY have H&M and Zara. There are lots of other stores ofcourse, but for example the stores you will find in Eindhoven are the same stores you will find in Leeuwarden, and those 2 city's are 200 km away from each other and totally different in character. The only unique city you will find when it comes to fashionstores is Amsterdam.

 

[stilista]

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's posts...and although I know I can't add anything more to what's been said, I am disappointed by the new culture for not caring (about anything....) and of worshipping False Gods.

Young girls aspire to being "famous" now. They get through their days by imagining the day they will be "spotted" . They want the easy way out....people used to have to work to get somewhere and have a talent. TV has shown them it doesn't take a lot to be the next big thing (for 5 minutes)

They want to dress "sexy" and be noticed... but in their desire to stand out they merge.

It's a brain-dead culture we're living in, where looking like a celebrity matters, and conversations in the workplace centre around who has been in "Hello" or equivalent. People obsess over a famous thigh's cellulite instead of using that time to educate themselves or do something that matters to someone else but themselves.

Maybe lives are so dull it's a form of escapism, and if I had to work every day 9-5 in a mundane job I'd join them...

 

[helena]

i suspect its the same everywhere these days mr Dale.

where to start.....I haven't seen this thread for about 24 hours and its meandered in lots of different directions with many great points having been made. so do people think that the appreciation of or value placed on the arts (in a broad sense- i think culture is too easy to misinterpret) by a society relates directly to its prevailing dress sense?

 

[Meg]

First of all, I think it's too easy to blame 'culture' and say oh it's all brain-dead, it's all this, it's all that. I think that may be the surface but when you actually probe you will find that though sexual remarks may be rampant, at least on some level, women are allowed to show sexuality. And if you actually sit these people down, one on one, and talk about arts, fashion, what it means to them, it is a different story. It is too easy to write things off.

As for Helena's question...I think yes and no. As As You Like It and I both said, there are a lot of people in rural Canada and America who have style, dress well, have an appreciation for style and yet have never been exposed to a lot of main stream 'arts' influences. But then there are also places that have a strong tradition in the 'arts' that have a certain sort of style about them, I think a lot of people would make an argument for french style here. That said, there are places like Hollywood, as film is undoubtedly an art albeit though of a different medium, where there has been a hundred year history of the arts and yet people do not necessarily dress stylishly so....I think it greatly depends.

 

[Mr-Dale]

Being young myself and still being in school I also sense a big difference in the level of education compared to style and interest in arts and culture etcetera. The kids that have the lowest education seem to be the Uggs-devowering and Paris-adoring crowd I adressed earlier on. The kids that have higher education are far more interested in arts, culture and actual style and also tend to be more unique when it comes to fashion. This is a pretty interesting observation if you'd ask me. We live in a culture with lots of sub-cultures, even in places as relatively small as a school.

 

[Meg]

^
I totally disagree with that. I think that an appreciation of style is available at all education levels. My father is a very well educated man and likes to buy his jeans at Costco. Like prince said, some very well educated people, loathe 'high fashion' as they see it as frivolous. I think there is something innate within a person regarding style, an eye for colors and shapes, like painting, that doesn't have to do with your education level.

 

[AlexN]

No deduction skills are being taught. No creativity... Even english teachers feed us interpretations, forumulas for writing papers, what our literature is symbolizing... I really don't like this direction in public schools ..

Wow, I feel quite brainless next to all of you.

This is very true, just how my schooling was/is. Although, somehow, I feel that it wasn't this way during elementary school, which I will be forever greatful for. And you are not brainless at all.

 

[raijin]

I have to agree with that as well, in addition it seems they encourage conformity.

 

[AlexN]

^
I totally disagree with that. I think that an appreciation of style is available at all education levels. My father is a very well educated man and likes to buy his jeans at Costco. Like prince said, some very well educated people, loathe 'high fashion' as they see it as frivolous. I think there is something innate within a person regarding style, an eye for colors and shapes, like painting, that doesn't have to do with your education level.

Agreed, Meg. My father is the same way. He's extremely well-educated, but he just doesn't "get" fashion, although he certainly has a great appreciation for any other artform.

 

[softgrey]

meg...sorry...but i really don't believe that hollywood focuses on the arts...it is a money driven industry...there are no art films being made by those studios and there is virtually no theatre to speak of and not many museums or galleries...

hollywood is a cultural wasteland...and it shows in who they idolize...notice how paris didn't get noticed until she moved from new york to LA...she was heckled on the street by passersby when she lived here...she was the joke of the town...now she is worshipped...that's hollywood...

so, are we talking about fashion or style...?
i do believe that we are talking about style as well as fashion here..that's the aesthetics part...if you have an appreciation for the aesthetics of things...then you care more about personal style... my dad is notoriously cheap when it comes to clothes...he takes great pride in telling you what a good bargain he got..he chuckles with glee...like a kid...but he is so elegantly put together...it's more about the items you select...not how much you paid for them...about the appreciation for colour and texture and quality and proportion...that's what a focus on the arts will give you...my parents raised two kids in ny on a nyc teacher's income...believe me...it was not about designers for them...it was about 'flair'...as my mother likes to say...with her little accent...

i don't know if education...ie-school and a diploma...has a lot to do with it...as i mentioned...my grandmother didn't get past 1st grade...so she certainly didn't learn it there...i think it was just a cultural thing that is part of the mainstream in italy...
the italians place a great value on the arts and aesthetics and craft...and they have always been known for their innate sense of style...and it must be just because they are surrounded with it from birth...

even the food is stylish over there...

 

[Meg]

well there are plenty of indie movies made in hollywood softie, they just aren't as mainstream. And Fox Spotlight is out there as well. Regardless, I believe cinema is an art, and there are a lot of films made out there. It's just a different aesthetic. There are plenty of good dressers in LA, they just aren't always focused on. I'm sure space can back me up on this?

The whole fashion industry is a money driven industry as well. Just like in movies, there are one offs who care not about what will sell, but they are barely surviving or have found their niche market. Many collections are based on what consumers will buy.

I do think that coming from a certain cultural centre will give one more of a natural affinity for texture, color, shape and form, but going back to previous post about rural America/Canada I don't think that it is exclusive. You can be from a place that has no 'culture' and still have great style. I certainly wouldn't say all italians have great style even though a lot of 'culture' comes there and there are a lot of major italian houses whose clothing I despise so one does not guarantee the other.

 

[clay]

meg...sorry...but i really don't believe that hollywood focuses on the arts...it is a money driven industry...there are no art films being made by those studios and there is virtually no theatre to speak of and not many museums or galleries...

hollywood is a cultural wasteland...and it shows in who they idolize...notice how paris didn't get noticed until she moved from new york to LA...she was heckled on the street by passersby when she lived here...she was the joke of the town...now she is worshipped...that's hollywood...

so, are we talking about fashion or style...?
i do believe that we are talking about style as well as fashion here..that's the aesthetics part...if you have an appreciation for the aesthetics of things...then you care more about personal style... my dad is notoriously cheap when it comes to clothes...he takes great pride in telling you what a good bargain he got..he chuckles with glee...like a kid...but he is so elegantly put together...it's more about the items you select...not how much you paid for them...about the appreciation for colour and texture and quality and proportion...that's what a focus on the arts will give you...my parents raised two kids in ny on a nyc teacher's income...believe me...it was not about designers for them...it was about 'flair'...as my mother likes to say...with her little accent...

i don't know if education...ie-school and a diploma...has a lot to do with it...as i mentioned...my grandmother didn't get past 1st grade...so she certainly didn't learn it there...i think it was just a cultural thing that is part of the mainstream in italy...
the italians place a great value on the arts and aesthetics and craft...and they have always been known for their innate sense of style...and it must be just because they are surrounded with it from birth...

even the food is stylish over there...

Hey Softie, I think my mom is alot like your dad. On a low salary, raising two kids alone she was not only able to afford stylish clothes and shoes for herself by shopping for only great deals.She knew investment pieces like furs and high end suits ( from now defunct I.Magnin , Joseph Magnin, Liberty House and Capwells, remember them?) to thru cheap pieces for a quick vacation or party that she could pair with better items in her extensive wardrobe. She literally had Jcpenny brands next to Ysl , Chloe, Fendi, Halston ect.Her favorite Pumps and boots were from Walter Stieger Whatever she could find for a great price. She worked for Kaiser Hospital's medical insurr billing office and needed to have suits and boy did she have a million. But she alway made sure they were on sale when she bought. She would plan a purchase for months, watching, waiting till the price was just perfect for budget. And when she really dressed she looked great( weekends in her sweats were another story ). My mom did not have the best frrom those designers and companies listed but she had style and could put things together and look terrific without reading fashion magazines, she really shopped and saw what was out there and adapted what she could to her style.

 

[Meg]

clay, could you tell us what your mothers background was? Was she born and raised in a city or from a rural part of a country or something else?

 

[softgrey]

well there are plenty of indie movies made in hollywood softie, they just aren't as mainstream. And Fox Spotlight is out there as well. Regardless, I believe cinema is an art, and there are a lot of films made out there. It's just a different aesthetic. There are plenty of good dressers in LA, they just aren't always focused on. I'm sure space can back me up on this?

The whole fashion industry is a money driven industry as well. Just like in movies, there are one offs who care not about what will sell, but they are barely surviving or have found their niche market. Many collections are based on what consumers will buy.

I do think that coming from a certain cultural centre will give one more of a natural affinity for texture, color, shape and form, but going back to previous post about rural America/Canada I don't think that it is exclusive. You can be from a place that has no 'culture' and still have great style. I certainly wouldn't say all italians have great style even though a lot of 'culture' comes there and there are a lot of major italian houses whose clothing I despise so one does not guarantee the other.

meg...i hear what you're saying and see what you mena

there are no absolutes...so i think the only way we can have this discussion is if we allow for generalizations and grant that there will always be exceptions...when doing a cultural analysis...one has no choice but to generalize...we couldn't possibly enumerate every experience of every person on the planet...

i'm just thinkingt that , generally speaking...if you are more exposed to an environment which places value on aesthetics and cultural pursuits...whether that be at home or at church or at university or wherever you get it...i think you will be inclined to have more of an appreciation for it yourself...

and when there is an absence of all these things...there is no foundation for these values...and it is only a few who will seek it out for themselves...most people will choose the path of less resistance and just go with the flow...rather than explore other options...

this appears to be the case to me...generally speaking...
based on what everyone has been saying...

 

[Meg]

I understand softie and agree I am just very sensitive towards this attitude because I think it excludes a vast majority of the people who due to where they were born might not necessarily have this sort of exposure. I really do believe that a sense of style is innate, but that maybe it is easier developed when exposed to more 'culture'? Which I think satisfies both problems. I'm not even sure if that makes sense right now but it does in my head.

 

[softgrey]

i know exactly what you mean...
and your post actually got me thinking before about just that question...

is style something you are born with or can it be taught?...
look at all the makeover shows now...queer eye and what not to wear...etc...
practically every magazine has a section devoted to just that subject...

maybe that's a separate topic?...i was thinking of starting another thread...
what do you think?...

 

[Jadee]

i know exactly what you mean...
and your post actually got me thinking before about just that question...

is style something you are born with or can it be taught?...
look at all the makeover shows now...queer eye and what not to wear...etc...
practically every magazine has a section devoted to just that subject...

maybe that's a separate topic?...i was thinking of starting another thread...
what do you think?...

First of all thank you for this thread I was shocked and pleased to see other people sick of the current cultural state.
My english doesn't allow me to fully express my thoughts but I'll try to make some sense

I think that style can be taught to a certain extent because it has a lot to do with personnality.

I'm 22 and i've noticed how much my style has changed when i left college for university 3 years ago.(I study law nothing to do with fashion BTW)
It was the turning point for me.
I began to develop my tastes in different areas and specially for arts.
When you have a thirst for life, for knowledge you're likeky to find your own style, whatever what your social background is , because you know yourself.
You learn from the others (friends,artists...) but if you're a spectator of your life you'll buy whatever is stuck under your nose. You'll buy Uggs , juicy and the likes because magasines tell you it's fashion, because a star wears them ect... You let others think for you.
I don't know what to think of the makeovers show because I don't watch tv much and when i do i only watch movies.
I doubt that they really help people develop their own style though .
From what i've seen they tend to be very conformist. Telling people what to wear as a fashion magazine would do but I might be mistaken.

I'm from a poor social background and I think that you're more likely to have style if you have access to culture and from my experience poor people have generally (ie it's not always the case) less access to culture but it's not always true.


Style and culture don't always go together too.
Many intelligent and/or cultured people don't developp their own style.
They express themselves in another way and that's fine to me.

 

[clueless]

I can't follow this thread- I'm one of the stupid ones. So this is my contribution- I thought some of you might be interested to see this-
http://www.luxuryfashion.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=48718&start=0

 

[tealady]

Some things never change. tFS sets the tone and calls the tune and brands the conversation when it comes to all things style!

 

[softgrey]

thanks for the link clueless...that just blew my mind...