Fair Trade Clothing Brands & Human Rights ... the Ethical Consumer Movement

i just don't think that how much people want to spend on designer clothes is that valuable a debate really. its the sustainability of the supply chain for one thing, in terms of environmental costs, labour conditions etc. and also why and how we consume clothes.
(for e.g. the highest env. impact of a garment happens during the washing-drying part of its life-cycle)


i personally don't drop serious cash on clothes but i don't question others decision to do so. i am more interested in why we need so much stuff in the first place.
 
You're absolutely right...! It's easy to stray from the topic at hand. :P
 
fash ho' said:
i just don't think that how much people want to spend on designer clothes is that valuable a debate really. its the sustainability of the supply chain for one thing, in terms of environmental costs, labour conditions etc. and also why and how we consume clothes.
(for e.g. the highest env. impact of a garment happens during the washing-drying part of its life-cycle)


i personally don't drop serious cash on clothes but i don't question others decision to do so. i am more interested in why we need so much stuff in the first place.

I do think that it is a valid debate though. I agree with you totally that people consume way too much sh*t, and that the fashion industry is definitely a leader in that sin. The biggest criminals in this regard are the media who make people feel like failures if they don’t have access to all of these products.

If people were actually paid fair wages in the apparel industry, then yes, ultimately some people in the global apparel industry would loose their jobs. However, the people that kept their jobs would be making more money, in turn that would create a demand for other jobs in their community. If a family who’s mom and pop make jeans for a living were actually making a living wage and ultimately able to buy food, shelter, clothing and an education for their own families, then that creates jobs in that family’s community for carpenters, electricians, plumbers, chefs, grocers, retail workers, teachers, etc. The skills in a community will diversify and the sustainability of that community will increase for that reason. The world will not collapse if people support artisans over mass production.

If fashion consumers focused more on design and quality as opposed to brands, then people would buy less. Closets wouldn’t have revolving doors on them anymore because clothes they would buy would have more value (not just $ value) We DON’T need massive amounts of stuff in the first place, I agree, but we do need clothes for our backs, bags to carry our daily necessities in and shoes on our feet. There is nothing wrong with any of those things being beautiful, beauty nurtures the human spirit.
 
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Kizzume said:
It's getting to the point where virtually all large corporations in the U.S. have become corrupt, and the companies that don't follow suit usually die off. CEO's can make over 500 times the pay rate of the employees below them, and just so they (ceo's) don't have to take a cut in pay, they turn around and fire thousands of people so they can outsource jobs to countries with cheap labor. Corporations in the U.S. have more rights than individuals (unless they're very rich individuals).
Kizzume said:

Yes, it would be great if people could primarily buy clothing and accessories from small businesses and individuals, but for the huge percentage of people making only minimum wage, spending $100 for a halter is out of the question.

The only way that we can help this problem is by promoting change in the laws dealing with corporations. Telling people to only buy from small businesses is basically telling people to boycott large corporations, which, because they've become so big and make so many types of products, is virtually impossible.

Doing the "ethical consumer" thing is a nice idea, but it quite frankly doesn't do any good. It's as useful as the phrase "why can't we all just get along?" If everyone did it, yes, it would make a difference, a huge difference, but you're not going to convince the minimum-wage making people to spend 10 times the amount they're paying now for everyday things, and the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger every day.

Now, even what I'm suggesting is sort-of a catch-22. Politicians generally are there -not- for the individuals, but for business, commerce, and for their own gain. The idea that politicians would actually do something that would reduce the amount of campaign contributions and personal checks they receive from ceo's and major stockholders of corporations is unrealistic.

Basically, I'm saying that I really don't know what the answer to this problem is.



I think you have some good points and what the answer to this and any other issue is that there is not just one answer. There are a variety of events/things that lead up to a problem so it wouldn't make sense for just one thing to cure that problem. How about raising the minimum wage so people can afford things, educating people and getting them out to vote for candidates who are really running for office to represent the people...

Doing the 'ethical consumer' thing is a wonderful tactic, but not the only. It is a very grassroots movement way of saying that we won't put up with big corporation's greed and manufactures who rely on the sweat and low paid workers to make their products.

Grassroots movements are small and can be slow moving. People don't change automatically so we can't expect social issues to change so quickly either. Look at MADD (mothers aganist drunk driving) It was a small grassroots movement that has become very large with time. If you are truly dedicated and feel passionately about a cause it is important to stick to it and keep the faith.

 
Is it, in any way, ethical to spend thousands of dollars on a designer item of clothing? It seems rather indulgant and unneccesary to me. I'm not trying to preach here, I realize that we have alot of designer namedroppers on this site, but doesn't it pain some of you to drop such obscene amounts of money on an item of clothing when the money could be used for so much more productive and beneficial things?
 
^ We could look at the problem from two points of view...if I spend $1000 on a classic bag that I could use for years, for example, it might be better than continually spending a few hundred dollars on trendy bags every year, and throwing them away after that. I think we harp too much upon the monetary face value of things sometimes.

Of course, this argument is bound to be flawed since some labels really do overcharge, I feel, and consumerism now is such that we don't blink at continually buying, buying, and buying just to keep up with the trends. I have seen friends buy things that don't fit properly, or aren't flattering, just to stay 'in style'. They wind up throwing those clothes away after the trend has faded, and I would think that those are instances when it would not be worth dropping so much money on designer labels.

There are two sides to every coin. But in the end it all comes back to moderation, which a lot of us lack.
 
astatine said:
But in the end it all comes back to moderation, which a lot of us lack.

Exactly. It's been said before, but it doesn't make it any less true!
 
tott said:
This is just ignorant and practically offensive. You don't get something for nothing.

The fabric itself costs money, it might be very cheap or very expensive depending on what kind it is. Interfacing, lining, buttons, zippers and so on costs money; more or less depending on quality.

The production methods are also more or less costly; carefully made clothes take longer to make and require more skill. More or less can be done by hand. The workers need to be paid, more or less depending on skill and location.

Obviously it won't cost a lot to produce clothes of inferior materials in Bangladesh or some other low-wage country, and these are the kind of clothes a lot of people buy at H/M, Gap and similar places. I believe that these clothes, with their low quality (most of the time) and low prices, has set a new low standard and has become the norm. Unfortunately.

Edit: Just wanted to add that I do realise that anything "designer" usually has a substantial mark-up, but the quality is also higher most of the time. If you want true quality and craftsmanship at a fair price, you should probably go to an old-school tailor or something...

Thank you everyone for your explainations. I'm sorry for wording things so poorly before.

My point was that so often there is a serious mark-up. I shouldn't have said "doesn't cost jack", I should have said that it usually costs a substantial amount less to make than what they're sold for. There are tons of things that there are rediculous mark-ups on, and clothing is definately one of those things. The music industry is good at that. Adobe is -really- good at that. The cosmetics industry--man, I don't even want to talk about that, they're one of the most unethical industries out there between their markups and the crap they put into their products and try to sell as being "healthy".

I definately agree with woodenhouse's comments. Spending thousands on something like a piece of clothing, no matter how much more it may -somehow- pay people working in a retail environment, really has -nothing- to do with being more ethical. Buying clothing not made in sweat shops is more ethical--it doesn't mean it has to cost more, and if it does, the people who made it are generally not the ones making more money from it, the top execs--and sometimes the designers themselves are the ones making the moola. I've worked in clothing retail (from thrift stores to stores like Macy's to more high-end stores), I know all about it. Something to take note of--the stores that charge a lot for their clothing generally make their employees wear things that cost as much as what they're selling--they have to keep up an image. I've tried working in those environments and have quit because of that whole high-end image crap (and the fact that I couldn't afford those things). When I said "making a killing on", I was referring to individual stands where the person who made the item is selling it themselves, and for thousands--they're making a killing on it. There -are- the individual stands where people are selling the products without rediculous markups, and those are the places that are gems to find and usually have products that are well made. I love finding those places! :smile:

No matter how much more something costs, it doesn't mean that the quality will be any better--that whole concept of higher price=higher quality is a MYTH. One has to research the clothing they buy to see whether it's actually made better. Just take designer jeans for instance--compare a pair of well made carharrt jeans to some $300 deisel jeans with built-in holes: which do you think will last longer? The entire clothing industry, and really any industry is the same way--you have to research what you buy. If you want clothing that isn't made at sweat shops, and if you want it to be well made, you have to do research, and then if you also want it to not be rediculously marked up, you have to do even more research. If one does all of those things, THAT is being more ethical.

BTW: I'll have you know, Scandababian, that I would never spend thousands on a piece of art, or $10,000 for a piece of furniture, or $40,000 on a car. I wouldn't spend $500,000 on a house either. I am not a hypocrite in this area. Wasteful spending is wasteful spending. Well-designed clothes may be art, but even art can be rediculously marked up. There are plenty of great artists who charge reasonable prices for their artwork, and many that charge WAY too little for their art. I'm a musician, and I wouldn't even think of charging $100 for a CD or $500 for concert tickets. Nobody is that frickin' important. Barbara Steisand with her $2000 concert tickets come to mind. I WILL judge people who spend exhorbanent amounts of money on everything they wear, everything they drive, everything they do--yes, I WILL judge people that do that--those same people generally look at those that are poor, especially homeless people, as being below them and they usually expect people to give them extra respect because of their income. Just ask anyone who is willing to spend $1000 on a bag about how they feel about homeless people--comments like "lazy" or "drug addict" or the such will usually be the first thing that comes from their mouths, even though they have no idea what the person has been through. Again, sorry for my wording, but this is a very touchy subject for me.
 
kizzume, you made your point clearer with that post. Thank you :flower:

But I would have to respectfully disagree with a little of what you said. Research is all good and wonderful, but how many of us have time for that research? It is easy to say, "make time." Then again, it would be just as easy to just label all homeless people 'lazy' and 'drug addicts'.

Additionally, how many of us actually have access to information that would help us in our research, and even if we manage to find these "individual stands where people are selling the products without rediculous markups" (sic), would we find what we need?

It is an uneasy balance between ethics and consumerism, I feel. If we pay decent wages, and the standard of living in countries with sweatshop labour increases, economic theory states that demand in that country would thus rise. And we know that since the global economy is largely based on capitalism, prices would rise as merchants take advantage of that increased demand, and we would be back to square one.

However, if we continue today's practices, obviously the gap between the rich and poor will never close, and the problems might get worse. So yes, like you said, there is no solution to this problem. More knowledge passed down to the consumer would be the closest we could possibly get. I would like to hear your thoughts on how this might be achieved :smile:
 
The internet is a great resource for finding out about products. --But, it does take time to do the research, no matter what resource one uses: There's no getting around it taking time. That's why I said I try to buy things that aren't made at sweatshops, but sometimes it's just not possible without spending at least a few days if not weeks researching every purchase, and I don't usually have the time to do that.

I'd love it if there was a website that focused on this sort of thing that made it easier for people to find out this information on making ethical clothing purchases. There might actually be a website out there already that does this. If anyone knows about a site like this, I'd love to get the url. I've found "made in the USA" sites, but the listings for clothing is SO tiny that they're not helpful at all.

So, again, there's no getting around it: The key thing for making ethical purchases is making the effort and spending the time, and that's not a commodity most people have. My whole rant was basically saying that spending more money on something, no matter what store it comes from (unless it's at some stand selling homemade items at some farmer's market or something like that), doesn't make it -any- more ethical, and in some cases, makes it even less ethical when it's a company that gouges the prices and still uses slave labor to make their products.
 
I was recently reading about an artist who has started a collective in Rio de Janeiro called Coopa Roca, which allows finanically poor women in that region to develop sewing / crocheting skills while working from home. This results in them being able to make more money than they otherwise could, while being able to be at home with their children. What sets this coop apart from similar organizations, is her focus on the high end desing sect and the result is a clientele that includes Paul Smith, Carlos Miele and lighting designer Tord Bootje. http://www.coopa-roca.org.br/en/index_en.html


I checked out her website and her work is beautiful, but check it out for yourself. The article mentioned her "lack of self adulation" and the fact that her website doesn't even mention her involvement with this project supports this.www.nicolalopez.com :flower:
 
I think it would be very helpful and appropriate for people to post here when they find a clothing line that is not made in sweatshops so we don't all have to do the research on our own.

Here's a few I have found

http://www.nosweatshoplabel.com/accredited_comp.htm (Australian based site)
Can't forget American Apparel-http://www.americanapparelstore.com/main.html

No sweat Union Made Apparel http://www.nosweatapparel.com/shop.htm
And for those of you who say there is no solution I will end my post with a quote I have hanging on my wall: When looking for water in the desert where is the first place to turn? Away from thinking there is no water.
 
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shoegal2183 said:
I think it would be very helpful and appropriate for people to post here when they find a clothing line that is not made in sweatshops so we don't all have to do the research on our own.

http://www.nosweatapparel.com/shop.htm
And for those of you who say there is no solution I will end my post with a quote I have hanging on my wall: When looking for water in the desert where is the first place to turn? Away from thinking there is no water.

Amen and Karma for you. :flower:
 
Kizzume said:
The internet is a great resource for finding out about products. --But, it does take time to do the research, no matter what resource one uses: There's no getting around it taking time. That's why I said I try to buy things that aren't made at sweatshops, but sometimes it's just not possible without spending at least a few days if not weeks researching every purchase, and I don't usually have the time to do that.

I'd love it if there was a website that focused on this sort of thing that made it easier for people to find out this information on making ethical clothing purchases. There might actually be a website out there already that does this. If anyone knows about a site like this, I'd love to get the url. I've found "made in the USA" sites, but the listings for clothing is SO tiny that they're not helpful at all.

So, again, there's no getting around it: The key thing for making ethical purchases is making the effort and spending the time, and that's not a commodity most people have. My whole rant was basically saying that spending more money on something, no matter what store it comes from (unless it's at some stand selling homemade items at some farmer's market or something like that), doesn't make it -any- more ethical, and in some cases, makes it even less ethical when it's a company that gouges the prices and still uses slave labor to make their products.

Kizzume, I think you would really benefit from the kind of university courses that would teach you to make consistently logical arguments rather than spouting off from a place of ignorance.

You cannot understand why anyone would spend more than $500 on an element of an outfit except to look rich.

Some of the folks on this thread have tried to explain this. For me, it's aesthetics and self-expression.

I might also point out that this is called The Fashion Spot not covermynakedness.com, so if that's what you're interested in, you might go check those folks out.

Now perhaps it would be more ethical for me to wear sackcloth and ashes. I know that certainly within the last 100 years, and perhaps still today, there were religious communities where hair shirts were worn.

But part of my understanding of what life is about is to enjoy the fruits of my labors. I try to balance that with what I give back. Undoubtedly some days the balance is better than others. Some days the balance is definitely not in my favor.

Your post above answers in part the question of why one would spend big bucks on designer rather than searching till we find something cheaper. Here you admit that you don't have time to find fair trade products all the time. So I'm sure you won't mind my admitting that, not only do I not have time to look for something cheaper when I'm lucky enough to find something I like, but further, I doubt seriously whether what I've found exists at a lower pricepoint. And there you have my reason ... the aesthetic value is worth the $$$ to me. And the quality is often there too. While there are certainly quality issues at the designer level, there's a huge difference between a pair of Payless shoes, and a pair of department store shoes. There's also a huge difference in quality between a pair of $75 shoes and a pair of $200 shoes. (The kind of difference that could ruin your feet.)

The prices you so confidently state as maximums sound fine to me. I certainly have no attachment to paying high prices. But I also think that a) they're not very realistic and b) you don't have a clear picture of the differences between the men's clothes you shop for and the women's clothes I shop for.
 
So you're basically admitting that you NEVER ethically shop. Congratulations. You can't find the time to do ANY research on the outfits you like, other than--"that looks good, I'll buy that". Yes, congratulations. That's pretty much the complete opposite of being an ethical consumer, and this thread is talking about being an ethical consumer.

If the -only- way to get a certain kind of outfit is to spend that much money on it, then you can either wait until less expensive versions come out, do some serious research, --OR-- you can spend that huge sum of money on it and anyone that looks at you will think you bought it to look rich--especially if it's well known that the look you're going for is expensive. You may not have bought it to look rich, but that's what anyone looking at your outfit is going to assume, and you couldn't have bought the outfit without having a lot of money to throw away. The people that don't have the sense to realize that sort of thing are usually the people who get mugged and then wonder why.

To quote Cyndi Lauper: Money changes everything.
 
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fashionista-ta said:
While there are certainly quality issues at the designer level, there's a huge difference between a pair of Payless shoes, and a pair of department store shoes. There's also a huge difference in quality between a pair of $75 shoes and a pair of $200 shoes. (The kind of difference that could ruin your feet.)

The prices you so confidently state as maximums sound fine to me. I certainly have no attachment to paying high prices. But I also think that a) they're not very realistic and b) you don't have a clear picture of the differences between the men's clothes you shop for and the women's clothes I shop for.
Sometimes, and actually often times, the higher priced shoes are actually NOT made as well, where the name brand overrides the safety of the wearer. Hey, how about some $200 Doc Martens vs. some shoes that cost $80 less that one bought at Fred Meyer that are certified to be good on the feet. Hey, how about carhartt vs. diesel? There are so many examples of this it's not even funny. The whole price=quality is not even a "usually" thing, it's a "sometimes" thing. Yes, you're right about something from payless shoes vs quite literally anywhere else. Just about everyone knows that payless shoes are the cheapest pieces-o-crap out there.

The one thing I -have- found is that, over the past 8 years (it wasn't always this way), usually designer brands are made CHEAPER than the "mid-grade" brands. It's all about name brands. It's all about making a lot of money--it's the "American" way.
 
I wanted this to be an edit, but the time limit ran out--so:

I needed to add that I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm just trying to state my viewpoints, and sometimes that can be offensive to people who have opposite viewpoints. I know that you're not trying to be offensive either, but it doesn't mean that I'm not offended by your viewpoints, so, we're in a debate.

I think it's a tragedy that women's clothing costs as much as it does. It's truly truly a horrible thing, it's unethical for these companies to be charging as much as they do for such small pieces of material. I truly feel sorry for women in this way. I also feel sorry for the men who are married to non-career women that have expensive tastes.
 
Kizzume said:
So you're basically admitting that you NEVER ethically shop. Congratulations. You can't find the time to do ANY research on the outfits you like, other than--"that looks good, I'll buy that". Yes, congratulations. That's pretty much the complete opposite of being an ethical consumer, and this thread is talking about being an ethical consumer.

If the -only- way to get a certain kind of outfit is to spend that much money on it, then you can either wait until less expensive versions come out, do some serious research, --OR-- you can spend that huge sum of money on it and anyone that looks at you will think you bought it to look rich--especially if it's well known that the look you're going for is expensive. You may not have bought it to look rich, but that's what anyone looking at your outfit is going to assume, and you couldn't have bought the outfit without having a lot of money to throw away. The people that don't have the sense to realize that sort of thing are usually the people who get mugged and then wonder why.

To quote Cyndi Lauper: Money changes everything.

Ah, yet more unfounded assumptions from tFS's leading thinker :rolleyes: I hope you don't mind my saying that I find your arrogance rather astonishing.

I don't generally make it my business to blow my own horn, but let's talk about a few ways in which I shop and consume ethically:
  • I buy vintage/antique wherever possible/practical. This includes an 80-year-old house, vintage light fixtures for it, salvaged hardware, salvaged wood flooring to repair the original flooring, etc.
  • When I buy something, new or old, I use it up or wear it out, and then I recycle. If something breaks, I always consider repairing vs replacing. For example, I've only ever owned two cars, both of which I bought new. The first I traded in with 187,000 miles on it. My current car has 136,000+ miles on it. I drive small, fuel-efficient cars. Another example: I cook for my dogs, and no food goes to waste at my house because my dogs eat all the leftovers. No restaurant food goes to waste either--I bring doggy bags home for the dogs. And because I'm eating good food, so are they.
  • I buy organic wherever possible, and I don't just mean food--I mean t-shirts, linens, towels, rugs, etc. Organic products are very often fair trade as well.
  • I buy from mom & pop vs big box whenever I can.
  • I have relatively few clothes and shoes. I have one coat, a Burberry trench I bought on sale nearly 20 years ago. Yep, a great-quality designer item that's still going strong. I try to limit myself to two new pairs of shoes a season. I have three handbags for day--total.
With regard to research, you bet I do research. I read tFS regularly, and I subscribe to nearly every US fashion magazine out there, so I absolutely know what's available. When I say that what I'm buying isn't out there in another price range, I actually know what I'm talking about.

The interesting thing is that when you buy clothes in good taste, people who are uninformed such as yourself cannot look at them and attach a price tag to them--they simply know that you appear well-dressed.

In addition, I have never been mugged, and I strongly suspect that clothes are not the #1 factor in muggers choosing their victims.

Your view that price-conscious shopping equals ethical shopping is very narrow and actually far from true. The cheapest goods are usually the very worst in terms of human cost.
 

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