From Radical To Mainstream

Scott

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Interesting article,I saw on fashionunited.co.uk,about the state of independents in fashion right now.


Fashion: From Radical To Mainstream

Once at the forefront of design and creativity, radical fashion has left the building and may even be presumed dead. Clothes that once pushed boundaries, call it radical fashion or conceptual, has in this industry of all-powerful big groups, simply gone out of fashion.

Avant-garde designers and conceptualists seem to be ever-absent from the catwalk shows around the world. In New York, Imitation of Christ and Miguel Adrovar are mere memories. In Paris, Jurgi Persoons and Angelo Figus have gone out of business. And in London, a city with a high need to represent newness and desire to discover the next new thing, has barely any names left to seduce the international crowd.

Is it money that has killed the avant-garde? The big groups have so much power that no one designer, no matter how talented, can go on their own anymore. The large design houses have consolidated and exploited their power over the glossy magazines to create a kind of quid pro quo situation in which advertising money 0- the lifeblood of a fashion monthly - are traded for editorial coverage.

New designers, risky ones, may get a tiny picture and a few words in the news sections, the big full-colour pictures are reserved to the paying customers. How can you fight Gucci and Prada, quips one designer.

With Gaultier designing Hermes, Helmut Lang owned by the Prada Group, Martin Margiela launching a classic luxury line, and Yohji Yamamoto focusing on his lower-priced accessible line Ys, there isn't much left to seduce as being avant-garde. No more McQueen shows in carparks, no more cerebral, emotional work and no more risks.

Fashion is a business of confidence, and when people are not feeling confident in their financial state, it suffers. If you are an avant-garde designer no store will take a big risk on you, because people aren't buying. Therefore you end up with smaller volumes, so the manufacturers don't produce you, as you don't make enough. Then you have difficulty with your deliveries and the retailers don't want to take the risk and it all starts again.

There is a consensus, however, that the fashion world is in a state of flux and we are at a crossroads of some sort. The world as we know it is being reformed in a way that goes deeper than the trendiest of being avant-garde or establishment. Gucci can't be any Guccier, and gold can't be any gilder. Consumers already have everything they need. In addition, shoppers are smarter and know more. Maybe the avant-garde isn't gone, but is instead being reborn. Hopefully in a renewed emphasis on individual talent.

10 February 2004



If that's not enough,I have already heard that so many including Dirk Van Saene and Anna Heylen in Antwerp and the label of Bruce in NY(which I've always admired) are also having financial problems as well.
 
I've JUST watched a report on GUCCI and PPR on financial tv and despite the spin put on numbers , the biggies like these and PRADA are also in financial straits , so it's no wonder that small enterprises , aesthetically valid but short on funds , like those you mention , are going to the wall .

And VOGUE UK finds the time to report Tom Ford's glitzy night on Rodeo Drive , and ignores the plight of those designers that represent the future NOT the past .

KIT :cry:
 
I used to blame the big corporations, the media, and all the usual suspects for the inane and vulgar pop-culture that we are presented with. But then my focus shifted. If you dig deep enough, it will always come back to the ordinary people. Each one of us has a CHOICE in most of our decisions in life, and in ALL of our decisions concerning culture (I will include fashion in culture, just to speak on a broader scale). Yes, the scale of choosing is tipped, sometimes lightly, sometimes heavily by anything starting from the quality of education, social pressure, the media, peers, etc... But you know what, noone is twisting anyone's arm. So, naturally, it is the general public to blame for seeing stupid hollywood movies, listening to bland pop, and succumbing to trends. The $ is the ultimate power, and if the masses choose to WILLINGLY enrich the shareholders of the Gucci Group, then it'll be a much harder choice for the executives of the Gucci Group say, "Well, we've really been turning out vulgar, uninspired clothing, and not of the quality that justifies the prices - let's appeal to our inner consience and hire talented young designers that will make better clothes, or let's sponsor some of them," than for an average consumer to say, "You know what, I am a confident, intelligent, independent person - I want to buy what I really like, and I don't need Vogue to tell me what it is".
 
I have found myself becoming more disgruntled with major labels mainly because their clothes is so exspensive and unattainable. I am more interested in smaller, individual designers like Raf Simmons and Martin Margiela that are still big names but not as weighted down as say...Helmut Lang.
 
I agree wholeheartedly,Faust*

I am such a big supporter of young or unknown designers,and if I had the money to spend on designer stuff,it would put forth toward those designers I truly have faith in. Most of which are the aformentioned.
 
yes, well said faust. its not the big corporations fault if the masses cant think for themselves. unfortunately we, the ones with taste, are the ones who will suffer.
 
Its very sad,, yes, but I do think that when there is less money its harder for young deisgners, in particular, to ceep going bccaus when people can onl dby 2 items insted of 3 or 4 they are going to by what is hot and what they know , not take a chance.

doun't worrie its all going to be ok

corprut empires are always trying to rule the world, but we can ceep a resitans.
 
If the masses are ***es and the avant-garde by definition is at the periphery, why should the ground-breakers be economically successful? Where is that written?

"Radical" has been done. Sure it can be done in different ways but it's been done. Actual wearers want wearable and regardless of what we see on the runway, that's what they get (e.g., Christian Dior) at the stores.

This is the age of the internet and the time to cut out the middlemen. Make your clothes, price them without regard to what the "industry" says and sell your product to your customer (chinstroking or otherwise).

Purists who aren't in it for the money (are there any?) aren't affected by the problem this article addresses.
 
I honestly believe in nourishing and supporting the avant-garde talents. I do so because these are the stars of tomorrow, these are the ones with real creativity and talent. Not to mention pushing the boundaries of clothing whether in form, material or the innovative way it can be used. :heart:
 
Well with fashion these days no longer emphasising craft and quality, and many are complaining that's what they want, people are often deterred by the highgloss affects of the conglomerate. These designers we've mentioned-besides being creative-that's their main goal;to make a garmet that one will appreciate throughout one's life and possibly their offspring or otherwise. Its only up to the customer to decide what he or she wants--there is a melange of choices out there and if someone is as smart as they say,they will think for themselves....which doesn't seem to be happening. And these are the days,also,when a different,slightly more wearable sense of rebellion is occuring---how can one not see that? Do people equate character with being unwearable?

This all being said,I'm not in total agreement with much of this article,either,since we are indeed in a time of economic crisis,and the fashion industry in reality isn't exactly in an abundance of shoppers these days. And as far as being radical.....it will never,ever go away. Die? No way,there's still many rebellious spirits out there who are doing quite well.
 
Fashion is a business of confidence, and when people are not feeling confident in their financial state, it suffers. If you are an avant-garde designer no store will take a big risk on you, because people aren't buying. Therefore you end up with smaller volumes, so the manufacturers don't produce you, as you don't make enough. Then you have difficulty with your deliveries and the retailers don't want to take the risk and it all starts again.

There is a consensus, however, that the fashion world is in a state of flux and we are at a crossroads of some sort. The world as we know it is being reformed in a way that goes deeper than the trendiest of being avant-garde or establishment. Gucci can't be any Guccier, and gold can't be any gilder. Consumers already have everything they need. In addition, shoppers are smarter and know more. Maybe the avant-garde isn't gone, but is instead being reborn. Hopefully in a renewed emphasis on individual talent.

10 February 2004


If that's not enough,I have already heard that so many including Dirk Van Saene and Anna Heylen in Antwerp and the label of Bruce in NY(which I've always admired) are also having financial problems as well. [/quote]
this is a very accurate description of why it is sooo difficult for young designers (smaller companies) right now...

i'm glad that there's a consensus that things are changing...good to know i'm not the only one feeling the movement...it feels a little like walking on shaky ground...

looking forward to the rebirth...

...bring on the revolution... :flower:
 
'small' designers have been facing problems for a very long time now (two/three years) but the worst came up following the latest collections.

with the rise of euro against the dollar most buyers cut off their 'indie' budgets.. so one can imagine how much more difficult the situation is right now.

i completly agree on 'supporting' young talents by choosing 'indie' when spending money still, i feel young designers are also somehow responsible for the situation since they mainly follow mainstream marketing rules.

they need to 'invent' a more 'guerrila' ways for approaching the market, one cannot beat big companies while playing the 'big companies game'

my 2cents: alternative marketing and real fresh ideas in distribution and production could bring small business out of the red.

there is hope, dont give up :flower:
 
don't have time to read all the replies above but i do want to say that it is very hard for "small" designers to survive in this industry. Fashion to many people are "unnecessary" or "frivolous" unless you are really into it and have the financial ability to afford it. It is already hard enough to start out your own business and it will get even harder as you try to let it grow and expand. Sorry, that's how tough this world is. Competition is merciless!
 
Okay,I wanted to re-post because the original is much longer and more enlightening :wink:

Has money killed fashion's avant-garde?
By Vanessa Friedman
Published: February 6 2004 17:33 | Last Updated: February 6 2004 17:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oddly , what I remember most from my inaugural fashion week experiences back in the mid-1990s is car parks. Hearing the buzz, the whispers from editor to editor, about new designers showing – almost always it seemed – in car parks.
Driving around very late at night desperately trying to find said car park on the fringes of Paris or London or New York before the show started. Freezing outside car parks as, an hour and a half after the show was supposed to have started, the designer’s assistants were still not letting us in.
Freezing inside unheated car parks while sitting on wood benches that left splinters as mementoes. Getting lost in car parks searching for the (non-existent) loo. Becoming absolutely elated in car parks as a truly original, surprising, interesting show occurred, and made it all worthwhile.
There was Hussein Chalayan’s aerodynamic, woman-as-technology show in a car park, with dresses that moved in a techno ballet all their own; Alexander McQueen’s Highland r*pe and Fire and Rain show in car parks, as dramatic as tailoring ever could be. There were the debut shows of the Belgians Véronique Branquinho and Olivier Theyskens – romantic, gothic visions in car parks. Car parks, or their kin (Martin Margiela’s abandoned train station, for example; Robert Cary-Williams’ warren of decrepit rooms filled with chalky smoke) were the places to be.
And then, suddenly, they weren’t. Come the turn of the century, car parks, and all they had come to represent – new talent, usually without any money but often enough with palpable promise, challenging clothes, shocking styling – were, suddenly, being called "not worth it". "Why should we see them if they can’t produce?" said the retailers. "Why should we go see even more stringy black things that are never advertised?" said the editors. Once upon a time, if you didn’t get a ticket to a buzzy show, you tried to sneak in; now, those who don’t get tickets shrug their shoulders and go shopping.
Not that, there’s that much to see in car parks anymore. Half the designers who patronised the car parks got swept up into the mainstream – McQueen went to Paris with Gucci Group and the French fire inspectors put a damper on his extravaganzas; Theyskens closed his own line, joined Rochas, and started making cocktail suits – and a lot of the rest went out of business.
In 2001 the V&A held an exhibition called "Radical Fashion" showcasing the work of 11 designers, and it is telling to see what has happened to most of them over the years: Azzedine Alaia no longer shows on the official schedule; Gaultier is now designing for that bastion of traditionalism, Hermès; Helmut Lang is owned by the Prada group; McQueen by Gucci; Martin Margiela has launched a classic luxury line called 6; Issey Miyake has retired to concentrate on his fabric research; Vivienne Westwood is having a retrospective of her own; and Yohji Yamamoto is focusing on his lower-priced, accessible line Ys.
The conclusion seems obvious: radical fashion, or avant-garde fashion, or conceptual fashion – all words used to describe the same thing, which is clothes that push boundaries – has gone, well, out of fashion. Or to put it more bluntly, disappeared.
"It doesn’t exist anymore," says Maria Luisa Poumaillou, owner of a group of eponymous cult fashion boutiques in Paris and one of the great retail patrons of the avant-garde.
You can see the absence in the schedules for the ready-to-wear shows that begin this weekend.
In New York, which kicks everything off, Imitation of Christ (famous for its customised vintage) and Miguel Adrovar (who once made a show featuring Quentin Crisp’s old mattress and a Louis Vuitton bag as a skirt) are mere memories, the first having migrated to California, the second has been forced down to one show a year. In Paris, conceptualists such as Jurgi Persoons and Angelo Figus have gone out of business.
And in London, a city that, as the designer Hamish Morrow says, "has a need to represent newness and a ravenous desire to discover the next new thing"; a city which, according to Poumaillou, "was unmissable five or six years ago" for exactly that reason; well, in London, there are barely any names left to seduce the international crowd.
"Fashion goes in waves," says Anne Tyrell, vice-chairman of the British Fashion Council. "We are in a quieter period, yes, but that’s all it is." This is the London party line – the current state of affairs simply reflects another turn in the fashion cycle – but truthfully, talk to most insiders and they’ll tell you something deeper and more serious is going on.
"Money has killed the avant-garde," says Poumaillou. "The big groups have so much power that no one designer, no matter how talented, can go on their own anymore. As a retailer, you feel, no matter how beautiful something is, you are powerless to promote it because you’ll never see it in the press, you’ll only see Tom Ford this and Gucci that. Ten years ago women would come into my shop with Marie Claire magazine under their arm and show me pictures of clothes by Martin Margiela and Ann Demeulemeester. In the past five years I can’t remember that happening once."
In the past five years the large design houses have consolidated and exploited their power over the glossy magazines to create a kind of quid pro quo situation in which advertising money – the lifeblood of a fashion monthly – are traded for editorial coverage (the insides of said monthly).
New designers, risky ones, may get a tiny picture and a few words in the news section, but the big, full-colour pictures are reserved for the paying customers. No payment, equals no pages, equals little press coverage. Put another way, Goliath is alive and well and his nickname is Gucci (and Armani, Dolce, Versace...).
"What’s the point of making nice clothes that no one sees? How can you fight Gucci and Prada?" says Belgian Dirk Bikkembergs, who has a personal stake in the matter.
As one of the "Antwerp Six", the group of Belgian designers that hit Paris in the early 90s like a tsunami with their raw-edged, beautifully tailored and shockingly essential clothing, Bikkembergs was part of the last wave of the avant-garde (his compatriots were Margiela, Demeulemeester, Dries van Noten, and Walter von Beirendonck).
Coming just after the Japanese designers Comme des Garcons, Yohji Yamamoto, Issey Miyake and Junya Watanabe dropped jaws with their deconstructed, voluminous, non-pretty approach, and just before the Brits Alexander McQueen and Hussein Chalayan rocked London with their dramatic, emotional and cerebral work, they created a craze for the avant-garde that has not been seen since.
"When I had my first show, you really felt like fashion was exploding and you could feel the energy and hunger of people for that," says Bikkembergs. "But now, all you feel is that hunger has been satisfied – it’s gone."
"I always think I arrived at the tail end of a good thing," says Hamish Morrow, the British designer who explores the relationship between technology and elegance and who held his first show in London in 2000. That "good thing" was the spending spree of the 90s, when retailers and public alike embraced the idea of investing in fashion. It’s a cliche to blame everything on September 11 – and it’s an over-simplification – but there’s no question that the economics of a post-Twin Towers world came down hardest on the smaller, more individual, idiosyncratic designers. "Fashion is a business of confidence," says Morrow. "And when people aren’t feeling confident in their financial state, it suffers."
"If you are an avant-garde designer no store will take a big risk on you, because people aren’t buying, so you do small volumes, so no manufacturer wants to take you on because they don’t make enough, and then you have difficulty with your deliveries, and then retailers don’t want to take that risk and it all starts again," says Poumaillou.
"What’s really hard is the price war with the big houses," says Véronique Branquinho. "Shops used to be very interested in new designers and they would follow them for a few seasons and invest in them, but now they have to take minimums from the big houses, and so they have almost no money left over, and what they do have, they don’t want to risk. Plus they always want new stuff so they can get people to keep buying, and for big houses with lots of employees that’s fine – they can do pre-collections and cruise collections between seasons, but for me, with my 19 employees..."
"Also, customers now have this option of Zara and H&M," says Bikkembergs, "so they don’t understand why they should pay so much when they can get it for so little."
"Still," says Poumaillou, "I think something is changing." could it be that the big powerful houses have overstepped the mark and that the small designers are about to fight back?
There seems to be a consensus that the fashion world is in a state of flux (Tom Ford and Domenico de Sole leaving Gucci is only a part of it), and we are at a crossroads of some sort; that the world as we know it is being reformed in a way that goes deeper than the trendiness of being avant-garde or establishment.
"We’re at a point where gold can’t be any golder, fur can’t be any furrier, Gucci can’t be any more Gucci," says Bikkembergs. "There’s nothing any woman needs anymore. And she’s smarter, knows more."
In other words, "she" – that elusive, representative female consumer – may not want to be force-fed images and desire courtesy of advertising money; may not want to be told what she wants, full stop. May prefer to search and tease it out for herself, to find that one special thing no one else owns, or has read about. It’s possible the sling-shot is about to get shot, and Goliath lose some of his power.
"Everyone is looking for a way to make the customer interested again," says Poumaillou. "And I think the answer lies in a renewed emphasis on individual talent."
"The customer wants something with soul," echoes Branquinho. And, "I think we are at a moment where a lot is going to change," agrees Bikkembergs. "I think things are going to become more emotional."
The interesting thing about these words – "soul", "emotion", "individual" – is that while they don’t sound like words normally associated with the avant-garde (those words might be more like "black", "anger", "shredded" – oh, and "car parks") set against the last long-term fashion trends of aggressive sexuality and urban sport they actually seem fairly startling. As Olivier Theyskens says: "It feels more subversive to me now to make a pretty dress" than it does to make a shroud.
"Maybe this is a new kind of avant-garde," says Poumaillou finally, "all this elegance and couture finishes we are seeing." In which case, the avant-garde is not gone after all, but simply being reborn in new, romantic, covert form; in which case, it is just our old understanding of the word that has been, literally, slashed and burned to death, kind of the way the clothes used to be. In which case, pastel flowers may be the future form of the avant-garde. It sounds weird – but then, doesn’t it always?



The only part I don't agree with is that second to the last paragraph. Those qualities have always been associated with indie fashion particularly with Belgian designers. And as far as everything becoming pretty well,exuberance may be becoming more prolific as the seasons pass,darkness and melancholy is not completely dead. That's why its called emotion.
 
Thanks for the full article Scott. Very interesting indeed. As it trickles down to the smaller stores we're starting to lose it to the majors and discounters. No matter the service you are able to provide, Americans want more of it at a cheaper price and faster.
 
It really doesn't have much to do with what people want anymore but the amount of choice most people have. Very few people like to travel to buy clothes and if the mall is just around the corner people are going to choose mall brands.
 
Well,I still feel a large part of the problem is the ignorance of the consumer. Generally people want everything so cheap and easy and hardly are ever willing to open their minds up. What's more,I'm not so sure about that "women are already satisfied" notion because they still seem to be shopping.
 
Speaking of the Uk, I remember reading an article about The Pineal Eye (an avante garde boutique in London), in Drapers Record (UK trade press).

The owner said it was almost impossible to survive as a business selling this type of clothing because the people who loved and wanted to own the clothing the most were also the ones who could afford it least - fashion students.

I tend to agree. When I was a fashion student, I wanted to wear avante garde designers but could'nt afford the high prices (some of them were/are sky high IMHO).

Now I'm earning the kind of money that means I can afford to buy, I'm not interested anymore as that kind of thing does look best on the very young. :lol:

Ity must be very frustrating for the designers, and the stores!
 
Originally posted by Scott@Jun 5th, 2004 - 1:46 pm
Well,I still feel a large part of the problem is the ignorance of the consumer. Generally people want everything so cheap and easy and hardly are ever willing to open their minds up. What's more,I'm not so sure about that "women are already satisfied" notion because they still seem to be shopping.
I don't think its necessarily ignorance, Scott. I love fashion and have a pretty good understanding of it as I work in the trade but I have other priorities when it comes to spending my money.

Here in the UK its more fashionable to spend money on your home isn't it?

I also remember an article in The Evening Standard where lifestyle researchers discovered that the young and affluent were making a conscious decision to spend their money on 'life experiences' such as adventure holidays, courses, motorcycles etc, instead of fashion.

Me? I buy a bit of designer, mainly acessories, but more often than not I shop in charity shops and H & M.

Have to say I find some prices of designer goods obscene. Ok, I can accept why couture cost as much as it does, but for instance theres a silk skirt with a frayed hem in this months Elle for £1500 :shock: They are literally having a laugh.
 
I think people on this site tend to make generalizations about the middle classes. Sure there are the upper-middle classes that have large disposable incomes and who really should be finding better ways to spend their money. And then there are the other middle to lower income brackets that barely have enough to pay for their homes and who find that shopping for the clothing basics at the GAP is too expensive. How do you expect those people to drop $100-300 on a single item from an indie designer? Not everyone can live in Manhattan and shop at little fashion boutiques.
 

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