From Radical To Mainstream

[PrinceOfCats]

Originally posted by Lena+Jun 8th, 2004 - 4:23 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lena @ Jun 8th, 2004 - 4:23 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-PrinceOfCats@Jun 8th, 2004 - 12:25 pm
Designers who openly market themselves as 'avant-garde' are almost always pretentious

like who?
I dont think anyone markets as 'avant-garde'
the term is losely used by general public when discribing non-mainstream styles..

i really can't think of anyone who markets his/her label as 'avant grade' [/b][/quote]
Read an interview with any of them...I'll pick Yamamoto as he's my usual whipping-dog for generalisations about avant-garde designers...

Okay, a few Yamamoto-isms:

"Psychologically, to be human is to forget about sadness and bitterness"
"If fashion has a role, it's to be immoral"
"Art co-operates by resistance"

Now apart from sounding like a philosophy lecturer this is all well and good (there are actually some quite good jokes in the same interview), we have nothing against intellectual designers...

But if you actually read the whole interview you'll see that these are simply clever, ironic evasions of actually saying anything, whatsoever about his work...

He sets himself up as this intellectual, cult figure who produces these amazing, 'innovative' and 'intellectual' collections...but actually how are his collections intellectual? As far as I can see (you may not think that's very far) his work is simply what I would term, 'playing silly-buggers with the rules for s**ts and giggles'. When he's not doing that he's churning out the typical 'avant-garde' staples - clothes that don't fit, rude-boy clothing, trousers that stop above the ankle, jackets that look like they've been through the washing machine one time too many, 'rebel' clothes...the usual...

I feel that people like Margiela and Yamamoto play on the fact that they're not 'mainstream', which is their pergorative...but then they don't actually deliver the goods.

As the last part is entirely subjective...this really all comes down to it being my opinion...I just feel that avant-garde is trendy and is milking this for what it's worth...

I've changed my opinion while writing this actually...I've decided I don't think they're pretentious...as long as you see the vision behind their collections...I just don't see that and to me it's all talk and no trouser...

 

[Lena]

excuses but the facts stated ( that they are 'intellectual' or 'original')
doesnt make them self acclaimed 'avant-garde' designers your highness..

i bet if you said ' you are avant-garde' to both MM and Yohji, they would be seriously offended

 

[Spacemiu]

Originally posted by ignitioned32+Jun 8th, 2004 - 3:04 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ignitioned32 @ Jun 8th, 2004 - 3:04 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Spacemiu@Jun 7th, 2004 - 3:27 pm

Originally posted by faust@Jun 7th, 2004 - 1:25 pm
<!--QuoteBegin-runner

@Jun 7th, 2004 - 12:31 am
I will buy what I like, no matter what is more fashionable.

exactly. i like to make my own choices instead of pop culture telling me what to buy. we are a vast minority, though.

sad but true

Sad but true? Then you're saying you don't want indies to be mainstream?

[/b][/quote]
uhm no i was refring to faust

we are a vast minority, though.

as for designers trying to be avant garde, i don't see a problem in this, i think its important to want to move ahead.

 

[Scott]

indeed Lena*. I honestly, have never heard anybody refer to themselves as avant-garde or even an intellectual. Its as you said,the media which conspires these labels,not the designers.

 

[banana]

Originally posted by PrinceOfCats@Jun 8th, 2004 - 4:02 pm
Your patronising manner is rather hilarious - you could perhaps consider that I know more about my own country than you...but we'll let it drop

Are you referring to me Prince? I'm not trying to be patronizing, just speaking from my own experiences.

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by banana+Jun 8th, 2004 - 7:49 pm--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (banana @ Jun 8th, 2004 - 7:49 pm)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-PrinceOfCats@Jun 8th, 2004 - 4:02 pm
Your patronising manner is rather hilarious - you could perhaps consider that I know more about my own country than you...but we'll let it drop

Are you referring to me Prince? I'm not trying to be patronizing, just speaking from my own experiences. [/b][/quote]
hahaha...no banana...i think prince was speaking to my earlier post and you unfortunately got caught in the middle...sorry...

someone once called me an intellectual stylist....i think they were giving me a hard time about my story ideas...but i consider that to be the highest compliment...though i don't go around calling myself that...

i guess it has to do with your motivation and your approach to the work ...and whether or not you are trying to say something with it...some people are and some people are just making pretty clothes and pretty pictures...some people prefer one and some people prefer the other...and there are good and bad designers in both camps...

all i can tell you is that i'm far more comfortable and relaxed in a margiela top and helmut lang jeans (avant garde)... than i am in a prada blouse and a gucci skirt (mainstream)...i don't find avant garde designers' clothing to be ill fitting...necessarily...but often loose fitting...which allows more ease of movement and freedom...which is good ...imo...i don't want to be all trussed up like a christmas goose when i'm trying to get things done...there's a time and place for everything ...i say...

 

[Scott]

I don't really consider the many designers that I appreciate as intellectual but as intelligent. And intelligent designers...they know the variety of customers they're graced with everyday so they often strike the right balance between stuff slightly more experimental and stuff that's extremely sublime and wearable. So yeah,kind of going back to that other discussion,a good indie can cooperate with the economics and still find an area to express his or herself freely.

 

[ignitioned32]

Originally posted by Scott@Jun 8th, 2004 - 7:16 pm
indeed Lena*. I honestly, have never heard anybody refer to themselves as avant-garde or even an intellectual. Its as you said,the media which conspires these labels,not the designers.

Yeah. I agree.
They just do their own thing.

 

[faust]

Originally posted by Scott@Jun 8th, 2004 - 11:16 pm
I don't really consider the many designers that I appreciate as intellectual but as intelligent. And intelligent designers...they know the variety of customers they're graced with everyday so they often strike the right balance between stuff slightly more experimental and stuff that's extremely sublime and wearable. So yeah,kind of going back to that other discussion,a good indie can cooperate with the economics and still find an area to express his or herself freely.

Most definitely. Look at the commercial success of Dries Van Noten and Ann Demeulemeester. You don't see those two launching sportswear lines or licensing their names out or making perfumes and sunglasses...

 

[Scott]

Originally posted by faust+Jun 10th, 2004 - 9:01 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (faust @ Jun 10th, 2004 - 9:01 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Scott@Jun 8th, 2004 - 11:16 pm
I don't really consider the many designers that I appreciate as intellectual but as intelligent. And intelligent designers...they know the variety of customers they're graced with everyday so they often strike the right balance between stuff slightly more experimental and stuff that's extremely sublime and wearable. So yeah,kind of going back to that other discussion,a good indie can cooperate with the economics and still find an area to express his or herself freely.

Most definitely. Look at the commercial success of Dries Van Noten and Ann Demeulemeester. You don't see those two launching sportswear lines or licensing their names out or making perfumes and sunglasses... [/b][/quote]
Nor do they do advertisments...

Belgians in particular,are of the very few,who actually let the clothes do the talking for them.

 

[mikeijames]

aren't the dries van notens and ann demuelemeesters of the world the very ones who are killing off indie fashion? i know for myself that while i love a great indie find...for the money i'd settle for the watered down edginess of a van noten suit or a demuelemeester coat any day.

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by Scott@Jun 8th, 2004 - 7:16 pm
indeed Lena*. I honestly, have never heard anybody refer to themselves as avant-garde or even an intellectual. Its as you said,the media which conspires these labels,not the designers.

yup...

 

[faust]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Jun 10th, 2004 - 10:59 am
aren't the dries van notens and ann demuelemeesters of the world the very ones who are killing off indie fashion? i know for myself that while i love a great indie find...for the money i'd settle for the watered down edginess of a van noten suit or a demuelemeester coat any day.

their "watered down edginess" is the essense of their success. and I don't see how they are killing the indie fashion. if anything, they are an inspiration for the indie fashion, because they are successful.

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by faust@Jun 10th, 2004 - 11:04 am
their "watered down edginess" is the essense of their success. and I don't see how they are killing the indie fashion. if anything, they are an inspiration for the indie fashion, because they are successful.

i absolutely agree...that's why they continue to soar commercially...i'm just saying when that in today's marketplace, even the consumer who wants something more on the cutting edge they don't necessarily look to the indie guys when they can go to a local department store and buy designers like these (en masse).

 

[softgrey]

Originally posted by mikeijames+Jun 10th, 2004 - 11:16 am--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mikeijames @ Jun 10th, 2004 - 11:16 am)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-faust@Jun 10th, 2004 - 11:04 am
their "watered down edginess" is the essense of their success. and I don't see how they are killing the indie fashion. if anything, they are an inspiration for the indie fashion, because they are successful.

i absolutely agree...that's why they continue to soar commercially...i'm just saying when that in today's marketplace, even the consumer who wants something more on the cutting edge they don't necessarily look to the indie guys when they can go to a local department store and buy designers like these (en masse). [/b][/quote]
ummm...dries and demeulemeester could hardly be called mass...

commercially viable...yes...
but they are still indie designers...albeit successful ones...one does not necessarily lose their credibility when one achieves profitability...on the contrary...it should encourage other young deigners that it is indeed possible...

 

[mikeijames]

all i'm saying is that if i got a ten thousand dollar check tomorrow...i'm heading to barneys not some small atelier on the lower east side. that's all i'm saying.

 

[softgrey]

hmm...so then YOU don't support indie designers...
personally...i'd do both...

but barney's is really not a department store anyway mikeijames...
it's a large specialty store...they cater to the avant garde fashion community...

they are the only ones i know who carry as four...and they've launched plenty of new designers...

so you are unwittingly saying that you support the avante garde...just not the lesser known ones...

is that it?...i think that's what you're saying ...right...

 

[Scott]

Soft,I cannot agree more with that assesment of Barney's. If you really think about it,it has more in common with the likes of Colette in Paris than Bergdorf's or Nieman's because they do take more risks...not just on independent/experimental but even on upcoming talents who haven't garnered a word of recognition yet. Most "department" stores,will never do that unless its a season or two in and the sales are escalating for that designer--and most times its merely just 'simple' things too.

Anyway,back to the regularly scheduled program..

 

[banana]

Originally posted by softgrey@Jun 10th, 2004 - 11:37 am


commercially viable...yes...
but they are still indie designers...albeit successful ones...one does not necessarily lose their credibility when one achieves profitability...on the contrary...it should encourage other young deigners that it is indeed possible...

Though I'm sure there will always be that clique of consumers that would only wear something unknown or unpopular to avoid looking too mainstream. It's like those music elitsts who say: "yeah I used to like that band before everyone else started listening to them".

 

[softgrey]

you know...i used to be one of those elitists...but then i thought...why should i give up something i love?...i loved it before and i'll still love it when the masses move on to the next thing...so now i just love what i love...regardless...