Helmut Lang/Prada drama> update*HL-art

[nqth]

Sounds bad. Does it mean that Helmut Lang has lost his personal feeling towards his collections, as well as the company bearing his name?

Faust, you said that

"And I don't know what Prada's problem with HL's accessories, but I think they are one of the best in the industry.
"

And I remember someone here in tFS complaing that the accs are hardly avail. except his NY store. So maybe it is the problem. People who want the stuffs just can't buy it

I just can't believe that the sale is that bad. Thank you Lena for the article:-)

 

[Lena]

it's fine if Jil and Helmut are off the market but Prada's sales itself won't increase two or threefold and the name Prada was already more recognizable to begin with......

Prada client base was 'in danger' years ago, while Sander and Lang were indie and growing strong.. they didnt buy off those brands to 'make money' out of them, they just bought them to secure a fading client base..and this goes back in time, think mid 90s..

does anyone remember what was Lang and Sander ten years ago?
their companies were very strong, their collections were real powerful, Prada could have been a tiny label if Sander & Lang were still managed by their founders.. which of course isnt the case anymore..

Machiavelian strategies rule fashion world

 

[Scott]

Exactly,Lena!

Just as I was saying,I remember Lang and Sander having the most incredible following at the time. And not just from avant-garde purveyors--everybody wanted everything they were doing....and the sales proved that.

 

[softgrey]

why would they need to destroy the competition if they OWN the competition??!?!?...
it's no longer the competition...it;s part of them...and it means destroying themselves...this logic doesn't really make sense to me...

i'm with theory on this one...prada was bigger and more mainstream even 10 yrs ago than jil and helmut put together...yes...helmut and jil did well...but it was a very niche market...definitely a small elite fashion/design crowd...prada was already mass market...selling thousands of those nylon bags with the triangle logo...

it seems more like a combination of ego and greed on bertelli's part that has brought us to this point...
ego-thinking he could manage the brands better than the founding designers
and not giving enough repect to the design quality
greed-cutting corners an quality to increase the profit margins...thinking that the customer would not notice and would continue to shell out big bucks for inferior quality goods...

maybe the prada customer would do that ...just to get the label or the logo...but helmut and jil's customers are anti-label and pro-quality and design...so it seems to have been a massive error in judgement on bertelli's part...
at least that's how it looks from here...

can anyone explain why they think a company would sabotage itself???...what kind of business strategy is that?...

 

[Johnny]

A slightly different slant. I agree that it's sad that these designers are being frittered away through the Prada mismanagement, but no one forced them to sell out in the first place. From the article, "At the time [prior to the acquisition], the Lang brand was flying high, and wholesale volume was said to be approaching $100 million." He was making money then, he had the quality, the customer base, the complete design direction control. And then.......he sold it. For muchos $$$$ I'd guess. I have to say it grates a bit when I hear things like "it's hard to be an employee" etc. Well, you have to make a choice - if you want the huge capital gain on a sale together with a no doubt very decent salary, you need to accept that you don't own things any more. It's not just Bertelli who's in it for the money.

 

[nqth]

it seems more like a combination of ego and greed on bertelli's part that has brought us to this point...
ego-thinking he could manage the brands better than the founding designers
and not giving enough repect to the design quality

greed-cutting corners an quality to increase the profit margins...thinking that the customer would not notice and would continue to shell out big bucks for inferior quality goods...

maybe the prada customer would do that ...just to get the label or the logo...but helmut and jil's customers are anti-label and pro-quality and design...so it seems to have been a massive error in judgement on bertelli's part...
at least that's how it looks from here...

Exactly. You have just explain it so right:-)

Prada makes big bangs with superstores and campains. It really works for a larger market. But I think Prada just has no idea how to deal with nich brands and their customers. They seem donot understand the relationship between the designers and his/her supporters. I do think it is not about making trends nor edgy ads. It is about the trust and personal approach. You adore the clothes because of the innovative cut, craftmanship and a "hand touch". And you buy a Jil coat not just because it is beautiful, but also because it is sth that expresses Jil's style and vision.

With the nich brands, they make exception designs, then the customers come and the money will be there. It is not about making profits in the first place.

 

[nqth]

Johnny but Helmut Lang and Jil Sander sold the comps for further expanding. They might need a bussiness partner to grow with. They didn't just cash in.

 

[Lena]

to me its very obvious softgrey.. Prada didnt loose any money by destroying Lang and Sander , they just put the 'opponent' out of work... and for good too..
its a Machevelian theory.. maybe a little hard to grasp.. lets say there is a designer out there, i feel threatened by.. i collect the money needed to make a cute offer, i buy and destroy.. the opposition is weakened, my brand -client base- is safe.

i guess that the US market didnt know too much about how strong Sander and Lang was pre Prada, but here in Europe they were like real HUGE..

and i absolutely agree with Johnny, of course Lang & Sander are responsible for the state of their business at the moment, sweet money always come with a bitter price, one needs to be very careful when people offer millions and promises...

both parts are responsible for the state of this affair, there is only one winner though.. and i guess we all know who's that..

 

[macchiom]

A slightly different slant. I agree that it's sad that these designers are being frittered away through the Prada mismanagement, but no one forced them to sell out in the first place. From the article, "At the time [prior to the acquisition], the Lang brand was flying high, and wholesale volume was said to be approaching $100 million." He was making money then, he had the quality, the customer base, the complete design direction control. And then.......he sold it. For muchos $$$$ I'd guess. I have to say it grates a bit when I hear things like "it's hard to be an employee" etc. Well, you have to make a choice - if you want the huge capital gain on a sale together with a no doubt very decent salary, you need to accept that you don't own things any more. It's not just Bertelli who's in it for the money.

I agree Johnny, and like softgrey I would also like someone to explain to me the logic behind their reasoning that the Prada Group bought Jil Sander and Helmut Lang just to destroy the brands and then sell them again?

What would then prevent both Jil and Helmut from returning? Even if they leave with a non competition clause, such a clause can only legally prevent them from reentering the fashion business for a limited amount of time.

And like softgrey stated, it’s not like the acquisitions have been cheap and there would hardly be any logic in the recent move to obtain the last 49% of Helmut Lang if they just want to destroy the brand.

Furthermore the advertising of both Jil Sander and Helmut Lang seem as massive as ever. At least that’s the feeling I get, as I can hardly open a magazine without seeing ads from both brands. And there would, of course, be no logic in using a lot of € on advertising if destroying the brand is the only priority.

And let’s not forget that, for now, it’s pure speculation that Helmut is to leave and the rumors would probably not even be there if it wasn’t for the fact that Jil has just broken with the Prada Group.

 

[macchiom]

both parts are responsible for the state of this affair, there is only one winner though.. and i guess we all know who's that..

Who? The Prada Group, which now has major debt because of the acquisitions and has been forced to postpone the IPO? Or perhaps Jil who took the money and ran?

 

[Johnny]

Johnny but Helmut Lang and Jil Sander sold the comps for further expanding. They might need a bussiness partner to grow with. They didn't just cash in.

I don't know what their motivation was, but it can't really have been just to expand. If that's what they wanted, and there was support in the business projections for it, they would have taken an investment - of cash into the business - but not have sold their shares. An investment like that may have diluted their individual shareholdings, but it's a completely different approach to selling out. I'm guessing that they didn't put all the cash they got back into the business....

Anyway, if the businesses were working, why risk it with "expansion" - where's the merit in that alone? What about intergrity etc. Nqth, I'm afraid that even for Lang and Sander, money talks. It's all fair enough, but we shouldn't be surprised when it goes wrong OR blame Prada for moving the business in the direction they want it to go. I just don't buy the idea that they're deliberately being run into the ground - how much money do you think Prada were losing to these two brands before...I doubt it was as much as Prada has invested in them. It's pretty clear from people's comments here that they weren't really competitors. Prada may be getting it wrong, but they're not doing it on purpose. If they own the brands how can they not want them to do well?

 

[softgrey]

to me its very obvious softgrey.. Prada didnt loose any money by destroying Lang and Sander , they just put the 'opponent' out of work... and for good too..
its a Machevelian theory.. maybe a little hard to grasp.. lets say there is a designer out there, i feel threatened by.. i collect the money needed to make a cute offer, i buy and destroy.. the opposition is weakened, my brand -client base- is safe.

i guess that the US market didnt know too much about how strong Sander and Lang was pre Prada, but here in Europe they were like real HUGE..

and i absolutely agree with Johnny, of course Lang & Sander are responsible for the state of their business at the moment, sweet money always come with a bitter price, one needs to be very careful when people offer millions and promises...

both parts are responsible for the state of this affair, there is only one winner though.. and i guess we all know who's that..

lena...that sounds like a very BAD business strategy...if you have spent that much money to acquire the cpmapny...it seems that it would be far better to have the company be profitable so that you reap the profits...i'm not sure you are right about this...it's not very businesslike or profit oriented...and that's really all that bertelli seems to care about...

and ...not too minimize what it means to be HUGE in europe...but prada OWNED the us market...which is many times the size of europe...conquering america and japan are much more impressive when it comes to $$$...(not necessarily taste of course...) but the us just has more spending power because of its sheer size...imagine that every teenage girl and her mother HAD to have one of those nylon prada bags...the way that they all want louis vuitton now...that's why bertelli is so focused on accessories...and i bet he wants to start putting logos on them now too...

anyway...much of this is assumption...helmut hasn't actually quit or anything...

 

[nqth]

Anyway, if the businesses were working, why risk it with "expansion" - where's the merit in that alone? What about intergrity etc. Nqth, I'm afraid that even for Lang and Sander, money talks. It's all fair enough, but we shouldn't be surprised when it goes wrong OR blame Prada for moving the business in the direction they want it to go. I just don't buy the idea that they're deliberately being run into the ground - how much money do you think Prada were losing to these two brands before...I doubt it was as much as Prada has invested in them. It's pretty clear from people's comments here that they weren't really competitors. Prada may be getting it wrong, but they're not doing it on purpose. If they own the brands how can they not want them to do well?

Why to expand? I think it is to expand or die game:-) But expansion could mean differently for everybody. Maybe both of them wanted to open news stores in other markets/countries, and increase the acc share, while remain the nich character of the collections. Maybe J Sander and H Lang saw Prada as a good partner to make that kind of bussiness... Lang showed in NY to be more visible in the US, but then moved to Paris for the more niche image. Sander might wanted to expand in the US with Prada.

But the differences came when it was about the details and the design. I believe that the bussiness is a tough game and Sander might not be able to cope with it, or she might not want to. But the model Prada has choosen seems to be complettely wrong with her.

Now Lang sale fall to 30% of the top level, it looked just bad one can't imagine. Who was there to blame, if not the bussiness side of the company.

 

[faust]

Good points on all sides.

Here is what happened to my company, a mirror of what happened to Jil and Helmut. Granted that it's not fashion, but you know what, I don't believe Jil and Helmut did not know better.

My company was fairly small, and VERY successful in doing what they were doing. But, they just did not have the money necessary for global recognition, for that leap into securing a larger client base, EVEN THOUGH our product was much better and cheaper than that of the recognized competition. So, guess how our President went to for financial support? A big conglomerate that promised him a sweet deal. On the surface he was promised money and what constitues in fashion terms "full creative freedom" . And they did not touch us at first. Oh, no, we continued to roll like a steam train. And then they snapped us up, according to the agreement. Our President was first to be pushed out the door. But I don't believe he didn't know that. Why would a business shark invest in you?

But here is the difference that Bertelli does not seem to get, and here he should take a lesson from Tom Ford. Advertising is A LOT, but it's not everything. Gucci PR'ed public to death, but they also delivered high quality goods. Bertelli seems to think that he can maximize the profit by cutting costs. But Jil and Helmut customer is a discerning one, and doesn't seem to bite. And hooray to us for that .

And guys, sorry but Helmut will leave. Soon.

P.S. Nqth, excellent point about accessories! It is exactly the same point I brought up in my conversation about Helmut at A. Great minds think alike

 

[kimair]

well this is from today's FWD...nothing new is posted on the WWD site:

[size=-1]January 19, 2005 - MILAN - Sources close to Helmut Lang have told FWD that the designer has quit his fashion house, and nobody at the Prada Group, the owner of the Lang business, is prepared to deny the report.[/size] [size=-1] Lang, apparently, announced his resignation late last week, and is believed to be staying on until Jan. 26, the final day of his existing contract as creative director of the house. [/size]

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[size=-1] Lang was not available for comment, nor indeed was his assistant, Stephen Courter. The receptionist at the house’s Soho headquarters told FWD that Courter, Lang’s assistant for the past several years, was "no longer with the house." [/size]

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[size=-1] Nor was Lang reachable at his Hamptons country home. [/size]

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[size=-1] The news comes less than a month after news emerged that Lang had cancelled his men’s catwalk show in Paris, scheduled for Jan. 30. The latest development makes it virtually certain that there will be no Lang women’s show in the Paris women’s season in early March. [/size]

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[size=-1] In October of 2004, Lang sold his remaining minority stake in his house to the Prada group, announcement that came on the day before the Paris presentation of his spring-summer 2004 women’s collection. The Austrian designer was notably tense in the backstage after that show, declining to speak about the complete takeover of his label by the Italian group. [/size]

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[size=-1] Asked about Lang’s decision to quit the house he founded nearly 20 years ago, the designer’s de facto spokesperson in North American, Ed Filipowski told FWD, "we can’t comment on rumors," before adding sarcastically, "I heard he was going to become the designer at Jil Sander." [/size]

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[size=-1] Like Lang, Sander was acquired five years ago in an acquisition spree by Prada clan chieftain Patrizio Bertelli. Sander herself quit her own house in November, the second time that she left her own house – though this time, apparently indefinitely. So now both Lang and Sander are in need of creative directors. [/size]

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[size=-1] At Prada, the company’s corporate spokesman Tomasso Galli limited himself to saying, "we never comment on speculation of this sort." [/size]

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[size=-1] However, Galli was unable to confirm when or whether a Lang collection would be presented in Paris. [/size]

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[size=-1] Insiders in the Prada Group told FWD that executives were still trying to reach some sort of accord with Lang, even as the designer seemed determined to leave his house. [/size]

[size=-1] [/size]

[size=-1] The development represents a remarkable denouement for Lang, arguably the single most influential designer of the nineties and a man at one stage able to alter the entire world fashion to suit his own vision. [/size]

 

[faust]

well this is from today's FWD...nothing new is posted on the WWD site:

Told you all. But this is even sooner than I thought. So sad

 

[Lena]

of course... thanks for bringing this in Kimair

 

[softgrey]

thanks for the info kimair...
i am truly stunned... and sad...although i really stopped loving his women's stuff years ago...

i just don't understand what's going on in the industry anymore... what does it all mean????

 

[baklanyc]

thanks for the info kimair...
i am truly stunned... and sad...although i really stopped loving his women's stuff years ago...

i just don't understand what's going on in the industry anymore... what does it all mean????

Maybe I'm just jaded, but it's just cyclical, isn't it? And despite our love for the industry and the implications of art, originality and design, it's still a business after all. If it's not one designer, it's another. But the good thing is, fashion is about change, and there will always be someone new on the horizon to fill the spaces vacated by others.

 

[kimair]

you're welcome lena & softie

I'm really stunned too...I always liked the aesthetic that he and Jil Sander have, and thought both of their lines were successful with their respective followers. I know that fashion is a business, but it troubles me to see talented, successful designers pushed out because of business strategies and egos.

This talk has sparked my interest in what's going on at the Gucci Group, who was also snatching up smaller, niche designers like Balenciaga and Stella McCartney. I'm sure they have invested alot of money in them, and I know neither one of those lines posts a profit. And I'm sure neither has the pull/following that Sander & Lang have/had.