Is Fashion Less Interesting?

[Creative]

^That's why I also said "or doing something that has been done before in a new way". It happens a lot in fashion and in any design field.

And I don't know if the problem is the new pace. Of course it can make things worse, but I don't think that's exacly the reason. There are people who are not following the new pace yet they aren't doing something groundbreaking either. Or interesting even.

The last thing that felt 'new' were Phoebe first collections. They weren't new at all but were fresh and influential. Hedi, though beyond influential, didn't feel new or fresh... Same for my beloved Ghesquière. What he is doing isn't fresh at all.

 

[softgrey]

Truth be told, I've come to loathe the word new when used in the context of fashion. The words new and newness set up nearly impossible standards for pretty much anybody involved in any sort of creative industry, especially if newness becomes your primary focus. Fashion, at it's best, isn't necessarily about what's new, but what's fresh. To me, fresh is sort of the feeling of newness, without the thing actually having to be something which has never been done before. And not for anything, the people who actually did create new things and do new things didn't set out specifically to do only that. It was a priority, but it wasn't ]the priority, you know?

I mean fashion -- and design, and art, and music -- have always looked back to look forward. The hippies of the 60s and 70s pulled ideas from Art Nouveau and the early 1900s while creating a style which still resonates today. YSL's le smoking looked at men's tailoring from the 30s and 40s to create something that wasn't truly new, but fresh. Halston's bias cut silk dresses looked at Madeleine Vionnet and the 30s in general to create the look which helped define the late 70s; again, not new, just fresh. You could go on and on about it because there are endless examples, but I truly do not think the fact that fashion is currently obsessed with looking backwards is what has made it so utterly boring these last number of years. It's deeper than that, because in the right designer's hands, with the right resources and permission to do what they're skilled at without answering to people who haven't an ounce of creativity to speak of, a reworking of any previous idea is still bound to be more enthralling than what we see now, and what we see now is a lot of designers desperately spinning their wheels trying to keep up with the demands of newness, profits, headlines, hashtags, worldwide marketability and ever tightening deadlines. They're stuck being told to please absolutely everybody in the entire world with their products and advertisements and licensing deals and an absolutely insane pace, and never before were fashion or the people working within the industry expected to please everybody. Same with art. Same with films. Same with music.

trying to please absolutely everybody does seem impossible and i think you have hit on a really big point here...spike...

cause if we are talking strictly about the luxury market- which is what all those brands are, then it was never meant to be for the masses...
it is supposed to be for a very niche clientele...
and (hopefully) inspirational and aspirational for the masses...

but i don't aspire to be some rich b*tch with a bad attitude and no real purpose in life...
that is the opposite of inspirational...

so they can keep their bling and i will look elsewhere...

like i said- there are a lot of small brands out there doing stuff that is way more interesting to me...

in fact, i have often wondered why we don't have threads about brands like black crane and rachel comey, etc...loads of brands that sell in small quantities to people with real style...
who don't need a big ad campaign or logo to tell them what is cool...

...

*regarding the term cool...
i don't think most of the younger generation even knows what it means...
they think it's how you look...but it's not...
it's how you act...and then what you wear just becomes cool cause you are wearing it...
but that's another thread...

runner---
our resident philosopher and poet...

i love that quote from sontag...
the sunset is such a great example...
it's the sunset...
it happens every day...
changing while being essentially the same...
yet, it is always beautiful...

i also really agree with what Melisande said...
real art and beauty has the potential to change lives...
while fashion may not be brain surgery, there was a time where one could feel as though creating some breathtaking fashion story or piece could truly bring some light into the world...
it felt like you were doing something worthwhile and important...

now---not so much...

 

[softgrey]

maybe it doesn't necessarily have to be interesting.
but there has to be beauty (or the eternal) extracted now (from the fugitive).

every since i read this...
i can't stop thinking about it and it seems that every which way i turn, the universe is showing me how true this is...



"Beauty will save the world."
Fyodor Dostoyevsky

"Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old."
Franz Kafka

so perhaps that is what we have lost, to an extent...
beauty...

and elegance...

"The only real elegance is in the mind; if you've got that, the rest really comes from it."
Diana Vreeland

 

[dior_couture1245]

Thank you softgrey for your wonderful last two posts!! And I agree - thank you, also, to runner for posting that Susan Sontag quote. It, too, has stuck with me rather intensely after reading it.

I love where this thread has gone and the discussion has been a pleasure to read.

 

[dior_couture1245]

The more I think about this idea of the value of beauty vs the value of something being interesting, and also to go off of what Spike413 has brought up about a lack of conviction and passion being mistaken as coolness and effortlessness, the more I begin to see very clear examples of what's missing and why things feel "off."

Vêtementes is clearly - to many of us here - the epitome of what is "wrong" in the industry. And I would agree to the extent that it represents in the most obvious and intense way this bad attitude, this scowling, mean-spirited and apathetic image as the be-all, end-all definition of cool. Ultimately - I have to say, I don't even mind their clothes at this point, but it's the whole package and brand ethos that bothers. Would their collection be shown on smiling, happy, clean, healthy individuals I feel like they really would have something! But the obvious rejection of anything traditionally, elementally or universally "beautiful" is troublesome as it is so petulant and it so desperately is done to prove a point and exhibit a false image of nonchalance.

I believe in beauty. I also believe that beauty isn't one-dimensional, either, and can be found in the most unexpected and unconventional places, but beauty always goes hand in hand with positivity and hope - even when it's manifested in dark, dangerous ways...think of someone like McQueen, who's shows and collections often depicted deeply unsettling imagery. Even this, to me, is an intensely positive form of self expression as its grappling with an inner struggle, fighting for beauty, dealing with demons, and using creativity as a catharsis. Also - I believe that unconventional beauty is only interesting in relation to traditional beauty. Unconventional beauty alone is as one-dimensional as cheap, commercialized beauty, in my opinion. A total rejection of traditional beauty is a cop-out. So when a brand like Vêtementes comes around and champions such negativity and pessimism, I think that is really where so many of us are taking offense. I think it actually has very little to do with the clothes themselves, and it's almost entirely in the attitude.

I would like to see fashion find inspiration again in positivity, in joy, in health, in energy, in wisdom, in craftsmanship and in a playfulness that requires the individuals at work to let down their guards and be vulnerable. It's easy, I suppose at this point, to hide behind an oversized hoodie, and call it a day.

 

[Melisande]

'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

This Keats quote and the Dostoevsky one Softie brought up are my two most favourite in the world.

Thank you all for this nourishing conversation. I'm so glad to find people who feel the same.

In this day and age I feel we cannot even talk about beauty any more without somebody killing the convo with platitudes like "beauty is subjective" blah blah blah. This is an easy cop-out used by people whose egos feel threatened by concepts such as beauty that demand humility, honesty, integrity, courage, work, and real power of spirit.

I totally agree with what Runner and Dior just said (I've had McQueen in mind all along too ), there is all kinds of beauty but it always comes hand in hand with light, positivity, and hope.

There is a lot of negativity and cynicism being sold to us as art (and anywhere else) nowadays, with the excuse that this is the world we live in. This is nonsense. To this I always turn to Picasso's Guernica as an example of something that is beautiful despite its horrific subject because it dares to look ugliness in the eye, wrestles with it and then transcends it, not perpetuating it with cynicism or simply spitting it back into our faces magnified: which any fool can do, and which adds to the already abundant toxic waste in the world.

 

[Melisande]

Also - I believe that unconventional beauty is only interesting in relation to traditional beauty. Unconventional beauty alone is as one-dimensional as cheap, commercialized beauty, in my opinion. A total rejection of traditional beauty is a cop-out.

I've always believed this in a way but again, it's an unpopular concept (esp. for lazy egomaniacs). Again bringing up Picasso, he was able to give rise to Cubism because he was such a master draftsman, he had total and utter freedom of his hand, had complete control, an unerring eye, knew what he was doing. Matisse was the same with his cutouts. I don't believe for an instant that McQueen being a master tailor was unrelated to his greatness. This, in conjunction with their passion and transcendent vision and ability to portray beauty, is what I think makes these artists awe-inspiring.

In relation to this: I had a friend who did a massive survey asking hundreds of people what, if they had to choose one thing, they immediately thought of when they thought of beauty. Fascinatingly, he said the results were almost boringly consistent: most of the people said flowers, children, women, nature. Which, to my mind, says something. This obviously does not mean if women and children frolic in flowery overalls in a meadow it would be beautiful, but we do have to ask what it is we find in these choices that make them universally (traditionally, you might say) beautiful to so many, and consider what that means.

I would like to see fashion find inspiration again in positivity, in joy, in health, in energy, in wisdom, in craftsmanship and in a playfulness that requires the individuals at work to let down their guards and be vulnerable.

Me too

 

[~Gia~]

yes. i miss when it was ok to be unfleek.

 

[Melissimo]

Fashion isn't less interesting I think. Only the amount of data makes it more spread throughout the web. That's why there isn't one website anymore that is great and exclusive...

 

[softgrey]

Melisande...

I believe in beauty. I also believe that beauty isn't one-dimensional, either, and can be found in the most unexpected and unconventional places, but beauty always goes hand in hand with positivity and hope - even when it's manifested in dark, dangerous ways...think of someone like McQueen, who's shows and collections often depicted deeply unsettling imagery. Even this, to me, is an intensely positive form of self expression as its grappling with an inner struggle, fighting for beauty, dealing with demons, and using creativity as a catharsis. Also - I believe that unconventional beauty is only interesting in relation to traditional beauty. Unconventional beauty alone is as one-dimensional as cheap, commercialized beauty, in my opinion. A total rejection of traditional beauty is a cop-out. So when a brand like Vêtementes comes around and champions such negativity and pessimism, I think that is really where so many of us are taking offense. I think it actually has very little to do with the clothes themselves, and it's almost entirely in the attitude.

I would like to see fashion find inspiration again in positivity, in joy, in health, in energy, in wisdom, in craftsmanship and in a playfulness that requires the individuals at work to let down their guards and be vulnerable. It's easy, I suppose at this point, to hide behind an oversized hoodie, and call it a day.

um- i have been practically living in a giant red oversized hoodie that i borrowed/stole from a friend...
...

...

great post~dior !!
i agree with everything in your post...

mcqueen is a good example...
he's well known and people can really see the poetry in the darkness ever since the exhibition of his body of work, etc..
it was called 'savage beauty', after all...

perhaps less obvious, but equally relevant are designers runner posted about in another thread about 'intellectual fashion'
quote by runner:

it's rei kawakubo that tries to overcome anger by means of intellect. there is carol christian poell who aims at intellect's control of despair. don't get them wrong. those designers are as eager. just that their passion is of dry ice quality. and of course they are not just intellectual but over-intellectual, therefore risky. on the other hand we also know for a fact that they have been intensely loved by the profession.

i would say that yohji is another...

 

[runner]

Fashion doesn't have to be necessarily beautiful, it has to be interesting.

...design hasn't been (just) about beauty for decades. The same as art. It's just a part of it, and it's maybe the least "interesting".

yes it has to be interesting if it is fashion (or art) as bread and circuses.
but some still demand the more-than-just-interesting. at least to me fashion would look lonely without beauty, just like philosophy without metaphysics.


the interesting has a very wide range of subjects. so it got popular quickly. on the other hand, beauty may be narrow but has depth, perhaps bottomless one. beauty is mysterious (therefore could be rich). so there appears someone from almost every period saying proportion, fitness, perfection, etc are not the cause of beauty. anyway beauty is not about the old-fashhioned, the stale, nor the uncool. it's a mystery embracing even that which has been called the sublime.


dark with excessive bright thy skirts appear

from paradise lost

 

[runner]

a giant red oversized hoodie

so you got to find that yohji one ?
regardless of whether it's yours or not

 

[modela]

Celebritism and youth are taking over and fashion is desperately bowing down to them . I actually think fashion has truly no idea how to deal with globalization , social media etc

The industry is currently run by people who got where they are through nepotism and who happen to live a very privileged and insular life. They are not going to be ones turning this all around unlike Visionaries who tend to think outside the box and follow their own path and try to work outside of their comfort zone.Fashion has become as vapid as the people running it.

 

[Creative]

Fashion has become as vapid as the people running it.

Spot on.

Fashion is the reflexion of the people who are running it. And the people who are running it are blasé, old-fashion, trying hard to be relevant, loving their famous personas more than anything (Anna W) and enjoying their wonderful lifes.

I also feel there is no evolution. We are stuck in a fashion image that was created like 5 years ago. Fragile blond 12 year-old-girls (and I love blond, don't get me wrong), who look boring and lifeless, dead poses,clownish oversized clothes that look sort of 'clean'... And I think that's also because we have no leaders who can make it evolve.

I crave for a little bit of fierceness. A little bit of joy. Something more hedonistic.

 

[softgrey]

so you got to find that yohji one ?
regardless of whether it's yours or not

not at all...
it's an old one from the gap...
when they did a RED campaign to fight aids...
it's probably a men's item, though i believe it was worn by an actress in the ads...
it comes almost to my knees...
i wear it with uniqlo leggings and the YY lace up boots...

*she lent it to me one weekend when i was cold and i washed it and gave it back, but she didn't want it anymore, so i took it back again!



osbrink-publicity

 

[Lalaurice]

I don't believe that fashion, per se, is less interesting. There's some amazing stuff out there if you're willing to look for it. I think the problem is that the media and people funding the industry are going for the safe bets and, almost always, safe = boring. When business dictates the path an artistic/design oriented pursuit follows, the result will never reach it's full potential.

Strange as it may sound, it gives me a lot of hope to see so many people disgruntled with the state of the fashion industry now. I've been feeling alone with my thoughts on the industry so it's nice to see others agree. It seems that the industry is being taken over by people with some money who want desperately to be seen as top fashion influencers. They feed each other and push the real artists to the side. Thanks to the social media star system, it's worse than it used to be. It's so very machiavellian.

As with all things the pendulum will swing back the other way. Now that the dissatisfaction is increasing, we can only hope that the change is just around the corner.

 

[rosiecheeks]

I too, have become disconnected from the fashion world. But that is not because I thought it became boring. I became fed-up with the superficiality that was screaming at me left right and centre.

But yes, now that it has been put this way, I think that superficial and less interesting, a lacking of depth is kind of the same thing. I do see paralels with the whole world though.

Capitalism is seeping into every aspect of our lives. All pleasurable things, good food, music, art, have underwent a sterilization and democratization to optimize their ability to be consumed. Now "good" food, music, art is avaiable for the masses; but in the process I fear a lot of people who could actually KNOW what was good have also lost the ability to distinguish crap from gold.

This is also the case with the media, which is just producing content to throw in the everexpanding ocean of the internet, time has become an enemy, and research is a sign of weakness. Bloggers used to have a unique position; but that has been rendered powerless by the industry again. By way of sponsored posts etcetera it is now just another arm of the advertising; but even more sneaky.

Also the political side of things, people are fearful for penetration, loss of culture (which, if they took one cultural anthropology class, they would feel much less fervent about), fearful of the unknown, that dynamic is also corrupting lines of thinking.

Then the horrible belief that things that are beautiful are somehow naive; that to strive for beauty is naive. I think that is one of the most destructive ways of thinking. I think it has been around little over a hundred years, but what with desparity in the face of war and the grip of dying capitalism it has become cool to make ugly things and declare that art doesn't have to be beautiful. It is true that beauty is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but not to the extent that anything goes.

 

[rosiecheeks]

Also what annoys me to no end is the notion that men are not beautiful. That women are naturally more beautiful than men. This is one of those destructive and potentially degrading ways to put women on a pedestal that bothers me so much. Beauty is not gendered.

 

[perhydrol]

Some of you mentioned Vetements as a good example of what's wrong with fashion right now and I agree with that statement, I mean their concept isn't new at all (Margiela did it earlier and better, because it was really innovative and fresh back then yet I feel like he was inspired spiritually by other designers, for example his Artisanal line- to me it's very Schiaparelli-sh, but not in an obvious way), they even didn't try to invent any name, their label is called Clothes.

I can remember Vetements' very first collection, I saw it on tfs for the first time and I was really curious what they would do the following season. I could feel the hype and hope. But the second season came and everything started to get worse and worse. Their idea of anonymity was just to create the hype. You know, I feel like they just used Margiela's concepts as a really bad gimmmick. But the fashion crowd loves it and gets the hype very easily.

The lack of critisism is worrying. Everyone seems to love everything yet the most interesting brands that usually come with fresh ideas aren't the most famous ones. Even Loewe isn't as hyped as Vetements right now. But that's not problem only with Vetements. The same goes to Karl for example. In the same time there are no people that could criticize anyone. The journalists aren't brave enough. They want to get a seat for them at the next show, too.

Fashion is getting less and less interesting. And it's the industry's fault. Creating bridge collections was the fast fashion's fault. Hiring boring models that can't walk properly is casting directors' fault. Choosing incredibly dull editorials and covers is magazine's fault. Can we change it? I don't think so. Brands won't slow down, especially with the whole see now buy now thing, people won't stop to use social medias (because there's a lot of everything on tumblr for example)etc. Everything has gone too far. But on the other hand people are just scared that they'll lose their job when their risk wouldn't bring as much money as CEOs want.

 

[MulletProof]

I don't like being too post apocalyptic on things like fashion, and throughout history and in all aspects of society, it's all one chain reaction and humans becoming fearful and seeking comfort and enjoying it and then getting sick of enjoying it (or more like the structure starts to strangle all its players) and drama ensues and then conflict escalates for a long time, permanently modifying the dynamics they were used to, and then some assimilate it and get sick of the uncertainty of that and paranoid and crave nothing more than comfort under the new order.. only to eventually get sick of that comformism too, again, and setting things on fire.. so to speak. Same thing, back and forth, for centuries. Evolution happening slowly in between. But the really sad part (and it's only sad because I strongly suspect I am part of that good-for-nothing sandwiched generation ) is that, since it's very slow, some people have to die (lol) and some have to be born under the new conditions and grow up wired to respond to them for actual changes to take place. Of course for fashion-minded people it's only a matter of one new designer or editor in chief to cause a revolution, but in reality, it takes a lot more.

So I don't think any significant change is meant to happen now or in the next 5 years, because the people at the very top, and even those at the bottom of the chain (the ones who are just starting aka. interns), they have experienced and consumed the democratization of fashion and communication as novelty too, they can remember a time without it, so they have seen it and somewhat (or not at all) assimilated it as a change, some even mourn the loss of exclusivity and all its elements (glamour, fantasy, etc), because even for currently young people, it was and will always be their foundation. It hasn't helped the relatively stable economic times after the early 00s tension and late 00s crisis (which by the way, ended with all the potential young/real talents, really hard to know where they even are right now), so people cuddle to all these new toys and the (relatively too) easy access to them without feeling any pressure or responsibility to question them, it's all still a very deserving reward. And of course there's also the unemployment/s*it job situation for the current generation, so nobody wants to really risk it, they won't waste time milking from the current safer patterns (e.g. organic anything) but I don't think they would even know how to defy all of what they are and what's currently here, because the economy and political time has so far not being at its worst but not inviting either.

I think the interesting side of things will improve and even skyrocket when the kids that are 10/15 right now grow up and start creating things, knowing how to navigate and challenge what for adults right now (young and old) has been a transformation, but for them just everyday life and the only thing they saw growing up and at their most educational time of their lives (especially creative teenagers). It will also be interesting to see what they make out of the current radical, right-wing movements. Both ingredients are, hate to say it, recipe for amazing things in the future. Humans tend to be very creative and grab things by the horns when solid formation + full asimmilation + stupid times collide.

Back to fashion as we know it, ideally attire expression should have never been so exclusive. It's true that it has always been a direct reference to hierarchy and status, but the economic system changed and embraced self-made people, music and movies are not exclusive.. maybe the fact that it's so tangible made it so easy.. point is that fashion is still shaken by the inclusion of more and hasn't found a language or format to communicate to all of its new audience, let alone filter in stimulants for criticism because they don't even know who they are!. The change has been so severe that those who call the shots being so reluctant to realise it and insisting on keeping the same structure in the same size and order, for such a large group that have their own ideas and ambitions... it is very much cementing their own fall, because what will happen is that their old format won't be just seen as old (which is what say, millenials do, they speak but only moderately protest, and never rebel) but will be overshadowed by a brand new one. Which will hopefully be more regulated than this one set up in like 1981...

On a personal level, I still get the same thrill when I look at pictures, or when I find a skirt that feels awesome, or when I have a good conversation on something related to it (not purely fashion talk, I don't like that...), it's a bit like music and it just reaches parts of my head no other things do, for better or for worse. But as its business becomes more realistic and less in my head, I get older and also have less and less time to dig around and explore for names the way I used to as a teenager. I never thought Vogue was the bible, or that any of the main fashion houses or names were this glorious thing, for me fashion (or anything that interested me really) called for hard work and discriminating endlessly so it wouldn't get in the way to that special gem that has to appear somewhere.. eventually. I never thought of sitting around waiting for something to reach me or waiting for some commercial designer to unveil their seasonal candy before my eyes and determining whether it was a great season or a s*it season based on what they did. I have less time to go on these mental/online/selfish trips like that now, which also compensated for the amount of junk that always existed, meanwhile people in the fashion industry turn up at work and they're everything I hate about society (stupid, petulant, impressionable name-dropping, superficial types talking about their photoshoots like it's rocket science and nobody's going to "get it").. so yeah the charm wears off... but the love's still there! haha.. love for all the textures, the pretty compositions in pictures, yeah, simple fashion.. never getting old, or less interesting or not beautiful.

*this came out really long, I don't know why. I ran 8 *** earlier so maybe just babbling...