Jurgi Persoons vs Haider Ackermann

[Urban Stylin]

Has.anyone been following the controversy from the recent H.A × Gaultier show?

 

[Phuel]

Is it controversial tho…???

There’s no denying that it was a ripoff. It’s unfortunate that Haider chose to copy such a mediocre design that doesn’t even fit in with the rest of the more classic couture direction, but he did for whatever reason. There's no defending nor denying it. Just baffling when Gaultier’s archive is brimming with so much more worthiness— and instead, he went with… that LOL

 

[Salvatore]

I looked over it and I agree that that’s what he decided to copy. It’s not even the first thing I’d associate with Haider in terms of design language, if at all. This mess overshadows the beauty of the collection a bit, unfortunately. Wonder if this will dim his appeal and desirability to be hired at a large house ?



Tenor.com

 

[thiago:)]

Diet Prada hasn't said a thing, lol. So yeah, I'm wondering how far this discussion goes outside tFS.

 

[Drusilla_]

Diet Prada have been toothless for a while so I don't expect them to say anything.

 

[Urban Stylin]

Its funny that I even googled it and there's nothing about it online.

 

[Drusilla_]

Its funny that I even googled it and there's nothing about it online.

the first result is this thread, another one is the facebook account of StyleZeitgeist that posted 4 days ago.

 

[thiago:)]

Just checked Jurgi's instagram account and Haider's been copying him for ages apparently. That's embarrassing.

 

[eugenius]

Just checked Jurgi's instagram account and Haider's been copying him for ages apparently. That's embarrassing.

There’s an old runway image w/ these brightly-colored men’s suits, and THAT definitely looks like Haider's cut from his previous womenswear shows.

And then there's the purple gown w/ the big, rounded shoulders. I'm convinced that's some golden-age couture from yesteryear. I don't know if it's a shape from Cardin, Balenciaga, YSL, whomever...but it's not JPG, I'm sure.

 

[Drusilla_]

A vintage store I follow on ig (vaniitasstore, specialises in Belgian and Japanese designers) just pulled all their Haider Ackermann that was for sale, from their store on being told of this.

 

[Urban Stylin]

Just checked Jurgi's instagram account and Haider's been copying him for ages apparently. That's embarrassing.

I was also shocked when I saw all the posts on his IG.

 

[susseinmcswanny]

A vintage store I follow on ig (vaniitasstore, specialises in Belgian and Japanese designers) just pulled all their Haider Ackermann that was for sale, from their store on being told of this.

is this for real... people need to cut the sh*t with the cancelling stuff.

The Gaultier look seems like a blatant rip off and I'd be pissed too, but the other photos Jurgi posted don't really read as "stolen" to me. They look like interpretations of Jurgi's technique done by an admirer presented in a way that "iykyk", and it's on the uncultured swine to F off and not pick it up. I think it may be worse that Haider doesn't know his audience anymore. The problem with the trend of yelling "copying and stealing" in the context of fashion now is that the people who consume this stuff are so dumb and braindead and already disinterested enough to the point where they would never be in a situation to pick up on a reference that a designer makes because they don't dig deeper into an interest greater than scrolling on instagram or the pastime of making terminally online attacks on people to feel morally superior. If that is who you are presenting your work to, you WILL be bombarded by virtue signaling hamsters when they find out what your interests are and how you integrate them into your work without putting your entire works cited in show notes or something.

 

[Drusilla_]

is this for real... people need to cut the sh*t with the cancelling stuff.

The Gaultier look seems like a blatant rip off and I'd be pissed too, but the other photos Jurgi posted don't really read as "stolen" to me. They look like interpretations of Jurgi's technique done by an admirer presented in a way that "iykyk", and it's on the uncultured swine to F off and not pick it up. I think it may be worse that Haider doesn't know his audience anymore. The problem with the trend of yelling "copying and stealing" in the context of fashion now is that the people who consume this stuff are so dumb and braindead and already disinterested enough to the point where they would never be in a situation to pick up on a reference that a designer makes because they don't dig deeper into an interest greater than scrolling on instagram or the pastime of making terminally online attacks on people to feel morally superior. If that is who you are presenting your work to, you WILL be bombarded by virtue signaling hamsters when they find out what your interests are and how you integrate them into your work without putting your entire works cited in show notes or something.

I agree with the broader point in your second paragraph but I think in this specific case, an independent shop choosing to not sell stock isn't the usual hollow "yell about it on ig/twitter/tiktok for likes" thing, she's actually losing money through that, which is more than the social media screamers (9/10 of whom probably didn't even know JP's name before this) usually do because there are no real stakes in it for them other than maybe catching the attention of a blue tick.

 

[THD96]

There is always a fine line between "homage/admire/tribute" and ripoff and when the original (not some online vigilante) calls you out maybe it's time to revaluate yourself.
I mean we wouldn't call what Proenza duos did to Phoebe or Virgil to Walter an homage.

I think it is all about the intention behind it, which in this case it's still baffling to me because this not only involved Haider but JPG's name also being attached to it. I want to know why did he do that considering that he has accessed 47 years' worth of archives. Was that not enough? It's put on a stain to my favorite couture this season.

Maybe they should all do a Marc Jacobs and stated your reference firsthand so nobody can call you out.

 

[Drusilla_]

There is always a fine line between "homage/admire/tribute" and ripoff and when the original (not some online vigilante) calls you out maybe it's time to revaluate yourself.
I mean we wouldn't call what Proenza duos did to Phoebe or Virgil to Walter an homage.

I think it is all about the intention behind it, which in this case it's still baffling to me because this not only involved Haider but JPG's name also being attached to it. I want to know why did he do that considering that he has accessed 47 years' worth of archives. Was that not enough? It's put on a stain to my favorite couture this season.

Maybe they should all do a Marc Jacobs and stated your reference firsthand so nobody can call you out.

I mean, even Marc was called out for straight-up copying back in the 00s and even had to make a payout for it since it was that obvious. Looks like he had to learn his lesson and it's stuck since. It can be a fine line between a riff off others' designs (Nicolas Ghesquiere did a Balenciaga take on the Chanel tweed jacket back in A/W 2007-08, loads of labels do camel wrap coats, MaxMara-style), and rip off like he did with Kaisik Wong earlier in the decade (and that too was claimed as homage only after the copying was found out and criticised).

It doesn't invalidate Nicolas, Marc or now Haider's talents or their designs in their own right, but neither does it mean that it was right, and I keep noticing a pattern where the copied labels are usually small or slightly obscure ones, not really known to the fashion press in the present day or not gassed up much in Vogue, Harper's Bazaar etc. And the design in the JPG show was distinctive enough to be undeniable, which wouldn't always be the case, if it was a plain black jacket without distinctive ornamental features no one would have really twigged.

 

[MulletProof]

Unfortunately, people tend to show their true colors under pressure. Haider has never an original designer, during the early 00s he was hardly remarkable and seemed destined to live under the shadow of highly talented people designing for their own labels and with the strong identity he lacked.. one season he was Branquinho, another season he was Rick Owens, AF Vandevorst, Chalayan, ES, Demeulemeester here and there, but always with a touch of tastelessness that made people quickly lose attention, and by tastelessness I mean that what was actually his and not borrowed, always entered some kind of Dubai housewife territory.

As the crisis of 08 rolled in and independent talent began to disappear, suddenly having his own label and being in a way, one of the mediocre survivors of a really good time in fashion just looked favorably on him and his worked look distinct and even authentic (because what are you going to compare it to? the commercial s*it of Hedi or Nicolas?), but.. that image is unsustainable in the long-term, his 'foundation' was following and not leading. It never looks humble to say 'I DID THAT FIRST!' or 'he's copying me!' but the 'borrowing' has been obviously happening long enough and in grating but relatively small amounts. Jurgi was discreet in the past and probably didn't want to look petty either but this one jacket does seem like, Haider's finally caved in due to the stress and pressure and accidentally came clean haha, he just couldn't bother disguising the source of his ideas anymore and it is embarrassing..

I do think it's a bit silly to pull his work from stores. I don't think that store has Haider for JPG yet so what they're pulling is Haider's stuff, and they pretend to care about research and understanding the garments they sell so.. how did that fly over their heads? I'm not a buyer or even work in fashion and even I know Haider rides on others' work. I don't know, the timing seems a bit hypocritical but um sure congrats, you got your ethical side in order and ran to instagram to let everyone know, woohoo..

 

[Drusilla_]

I do think it's a bit silly to pull his work from stores. I don't think that store has Haider for JPG yet so what they're pulling is Haider's stuff, and they pretend to care about research and understanding the garments they sell so.. how did that fly over their heads? I'm not a buyer or even work in fashion and even I know Haider rides on others' work. I don't know, the timing seems a bit hypocritical but um sure congrats, you got your ethical side in order and ran to instagram to let everyone know, woohoo..

It's a vintage store, they have past-seasons stuff from various designers (and specialised in stuff from Jurgi/Haider's corner of the world so it was pertinent) so obviously wouldn't have HA for JPG yet or even in the near future. But it's the only place I saw that seemed to have noted or reacted to the knockoff on the JPG runway at all, even if it's performative.

 

[MagFan]

And then there's the purple gown w/ the big, rounded shoulders. I'm convinced that's some golden-age couture from yesteryear. I don't know if it's a shape from Cardin, Balenciaga, YSL, whomever...but it's not JPG, I'm sure.

Gaultier did dress like this at least once in parisian fw couture with feather wigs and veils. It was black, one shoulder and with bow belt

 

[Lola701]

Im biais because I love Haider’s work…
But it was not disappointing to see a copy on a runway but indeed to see a copy of someone not related to Gaultier or to his history in an outfit that really would have had the same impact if it was just a white shirt underneath…

‘There’s nothing wrong with the idea of a copy or a reference…It has more to do with the intention and what it says about the designer in a way. I never look at a copy just from the pov of an outfit for an outfit.
Miuccia has based entire collections on one Pierre Cardin or YSL look. It was a copy but it’s interesting to see what she did with it. Ghesquiere has copied that designer in 2002 and has copied many times Gianni, Gaultier or Mugler.
When I see the likes of Haider or Rick Owens, they are like the children of Yohji, Issey, Anne Marie Beretta and Romeo Gigli.

There’s a difference between that and for example the guys of Proenza Schouler or even Zuhair Murad.

But it’s pity for that Haider collection even if it doesn’t dilute the greatness of the collection. There were so many meaningful and clever references in that collection (like the purple dress that is very Cardin or the other classic references of Couture) like the ones Gaultier used to do in his own collections that talking about that look that will not rock fashion history is a bit of a let down.