Prada Menswear F/W 2024.25 Milan

[LadyJunon]

The last three collections under Raf's tenure were all inspired by classic, 1950/1960's Couture. Fall 2011, Spring 2012 and his finale, Fall 2012.

Thank you.

 

[Frederic01]

The problem with Raf's designs for Prada is the fact that everything he does is so super futuristic and sci-fi, whereas a large part of Prada's DNA is based in part on playing with vintage and "retro" design signatures.

The most interesting Prada collections in the last two decades, IMO, are the ones in which Miuccia takes elements and cliches from the past, and brings them into the 21st century.

Initially, this is exactly why I thought they hired Simons for the job, based on his early Dior collections where he took a similar design approach, but now I am looking at these collections and seeing that both designers seem to be finished with that design approach, and I often wonder why?

 

[RaisinBoy]

The question here is: will Raf destroy Prada (when he becomes the only CD), the same way he destroyed Calvin Klein??

Raf is a kiss of death for brands.

 

[Lola701]

Patrick Van Ommeslaeghe.

God bless him.

In a way it would be ridiculous for me to attribute the greatness of RAF’s work at that time to him only but his influence on Raf was unparalleled.
He is very talented and the tension he created between his pure lines and Raf’s more practical, street-oriented vision created something fabulous. For me, he forced Raf to grow up! Even his own menswear collections were more grown up.

I think that Patrick’s absence at Dior was felt. In terms of tailoring, RAF’s team was perfect but that modern feminity and those exquisite lines are cuts disappeared. The fall 2013 Couture remains for me one of the worst Dior collection ever. Between the questionable taste and technique, it was a failed that would have never happened with Patrick.

RAF’s Calvin was good. I think Blazy and Mullier did wonderful…The only problem was that they did Helmut Lang at Calvin Klein.

Now at Prada, I think that we see that Raf is helpless. He is holding on to his uniform thing. He doesn’t have the design intelligence of Miuccia in terms of revisiting her own archives.

For me, it’s really a pity that Marc Jacobs will never be able to design for Prada. I think that he has that design intelligence. He gets Prada and he gets the women and men who loves Prada.

 

[LadyJunon]

In a way it would be ridiculous for me to attribute the greatness of RAF’s work at that time to him only but his influence on Raf was unparalleled.
He is very talented and the tension he created between his pure lines and Raf’s more practical, street-oriented vision created something fabulous. For me, he forced Raf to grow up! Even his own menswear collections were more grown up.

I think that Patrick’s absence at Dior was felt. In terms of tailoring, RAF’s team was perfect but that modern feminity and those exquisite lines are cuts disappeared. The fall 2013 Couture remains for me one of the worst Dior collection ever. Between the questionable taste and technique, it was a failed that would have never happened with Patrick.

RAF’s Calvin was good. I think Blazy and Mullier did wonderful…The only problem was that they did Helmut Lang at Calvin Klein.

Now at Prada, I think that we see that Raf is helpless. He is holding on to his uniform thing. He doesn’t have the design intelligence of Miuccia in terms of revisiting her own archives.

For me, it’s really a pity that Marc Jacobs will never be able to design for Prada. I think that he has that design intelligence. He gets Prada and he gets the women and men who loves Prada.

I believe that the core element that separates Ommeslaeghe, Mulier and Blazy from Simons is that the former three seem to have a love, at least an appreciation, for the actual materiality of clothing (draping, drafting, cutting, sewing). Raf's interest in fashion however, comes from a purely metaphysical place, which paired by a lack of technical skills can hold him back a lot.

 

[Cocteau Stone]

^ You can tell how the three make for a good team. What they each specialise in is very complimentary to each other where what one lacks the other can actually pick up and thrive within. Looking at Rafs time so far at Prada and even during his Dior and CK tenures, you can tell the colourist in him is extremely lacking and can't fully translate it very well into a look without the support and feedback from others.

Ommeslaeghe has such a wayward skill with colour that is so simple it's like Halston meets McCardell with a Flemish Vionnet or Gres. It's incredibly real but not from a purely pragmatic sense as there was still some fantasy that was beautifully grounded. Frankly, that kind of sensibility is actually something that would mesh well with Miuccia because it is so different but the root of its discovery comes from a similar place. Raf always feels like he has to compete with Miuccia who is still rather effortless and natural with her sensibilities, whereas he is so forced and seemingly requires a lot of patting on the back. Probably why he surrounded himself with some great talents during Sander to Klein to make him look and feel better, a way to make his own cushioned ivory tower.

 

[lookatme]

Patrick was also on the design team for Loewe for the first few seasons when Jonathan took over. I still think the debut Loewe collection was one of his strongest he’s done. And you can see Patrick’s influence quite clearly (in fact, the hanging leather swatch dresses in that first JW x Loewe collection are almost an identical some dresses he did at Jil Sander for the Zabriskie Point collection).

There was a very strong shift in style there when Adrian Appiolazza took over as lead designer under JW.

Patrick really is one of the most - if not THE - unsung hero of contemporary fashion. He’s an exceptional talent that never quite seems to get his due.

I agree with Lola, though, that Marc Jacobs really would be a better support for Miuccia than Raf. Prada has always been about an idiosyncratic take on bourgeois style and attitude. Marc is all about that and he really understands the craft of an “expensive garment.” Raf honestly doesn’t have the eye for luxury. Prada also has always had a sense of humor in her collections and Marc can certainly be rather funny. Raf has absolutely no humor and it really makes for such dreadful and dismal collections at Prada.

 

[Cocteau Stone]

^ Didn't realise Patrick was at Loewe at JW's tenure beginnings but that makes a lot of sense. The colours and proportions are definitely in his oeuvre. May have laughed about some those swatch looking pieces at the time, but looking back those collections were far superior to what JW is doing there now (at least in my eyes).

I wouldn't necessarily say it's humour at all times with Miuccia, but she has a lot of wit and nuance. She has an interesting temperament that is also very adaptable and you can tell she doesn't mull over everything to the finest details because she knows what she's about and is relatively quick with it. The way she did some of her Miu Miu collections was pretty much in the weeks leading up to it. The fashion month barely starts, she gets the ideas with the team and sample production begins.

Raf... is not like that. Didn't someone once quipped that he spends too much time overthinking the placement of a button on a garment? Swear someone like Karl said that about him.

Mind you, I think Miuccia is also very self aware about what she can't do so she always had/has a great team alongside her. But again that's humility and honesty, something Raf probably has but isn't very genuine about.

 

[LadyJunon]

I believe Ommeslaeghe left Loewe to join Poorer for that failed reboot. He's currently working at Shang Xia as an external consultant.

 

[lookatme]

^^By humor, I do mean wit and nuance.

Her collections are never “jokey,” but when you look back, most of her work comes with a wink and a smirk -

Lip prints, flame shoes, baroque monkeys, ugly sweaters, fairies, ruffled bosoms, robot keychains, peacock feather dresses, penny loafers, high heel hiking shoes, cable knit socks, hacked off hems, fisherman boots…

I could go on and on. These are all examples of a confidence to appreciate, embrace and incorporate “bad taste,” thereby transforming it into something “good taste.”

Raf is far too self serious to play with something funny and “wrong.”

 

[lookatme]

I believe Ommeslaeghe left Loewe to join Poorer for that failed reboot. He's currently working at Shang Xia as an external consultant.

Which is like…why? He could do so much better.

 

[Lorenzogi]

I'm so tired of the Onmeslaefhe lobby popping up with every single Raf related topic. He just doesn't have the vision to become a creative director.
And there is no such thing as intellectual fsshion. Is it forbidden for an intellectual person to wear Versace, for instance?

 

[lookatme]

I'm so tired of the Onmeslaefhe lobby popping up with every single Raf related topic. He just doesn't have the vision to become a creative director.
And there is no such thing as intellectual fsshion. Is it forbidden for an intellectual person to wear Versace, for instance?

If both Matthieu Blazy and Pieter Mullier ended up with top positions, I’m not sure why Patrick never seemed to end up with one. He’s far, far more talented than either of those other two Raf alumni.

But maybe Patrick never wanted to be the face of a big brand. I’m sure he got offers.

If I could send him anywhere, I think he’d actually be a fabulous fit for Lanvin.

 

[Lorenzogi]

It's a mystery why he didn't take over Jil Sander after Jil Sander's abrupt departure. He was there during Jil's short tenure.
Matthieu Blazy is doing Margiela Artisanal at Bottega...
Borh him and Pieter were given these positions thanks to to their Raf bsckgrounds. They are like Raf's shadows, especially Pieter Mulier.

 

[Thefrenchy]

First time in a while that a Prada show made me fall asleep.

 

[bc collector]

He just doesn't have the vision to become a creative director.

Who knows? We should see him being one before making a judgement...
There are scant interviews of his around (which already says a lot about him), just a quick and somewhat funny video interview on ASVOF (I think he's a friend of Diane's)...also worth checking his IG account, for some fashion history treasures.

I might be wrong, but I get the gist of someone extremely in love with his craft and with a lot of integrity - not exactly the merch CEO's are after these days.

 

[Lorenzogi]

In a way it would be ridiculous for me to attribute the greatness of RAF’s work at that time to him only but his influence on Raf was unparalleled.
He is very talented and the tension he created between his pure lines and Raf’s more practical, street-oriented vision created something fabulous. For me, he forced Raf to grow up! Even his own menswear collections were more grown up.

I think that Patrick’s absence at Dior was felt. In terms of tailoring, RAF’s team was perfect but that modern feminity and those exquisite lines are cuts disappeared. The fall 2013 Couture remains for me one of the worst Dior collection ever. Between the questionable taste and technique, it was a failed that would have never happened with Patrick.

RAF’s Calvin was good. I think Blazy and Mullier did wonderful…The only problem was that they did Helmut Lang at Calvin Klein.

Now at Prada, I think that we see that Raf is helpless.

I think that Patrick’s absence at Dior was felt

Have you felt Patrick's absence at Raf Simons' own brand as well? 🤣 You make it sound like Raf owes his existence to Patrick.

 

[Lola701]

Have you felt Patrick's absence at Raf Simons' own brand as well? 🤣 You make it sound like Raf owes his existence to Patrick.

I believe in influence. It’s undeniable that presenting a more grown up vision for men and women at Jil Sander influenced his work for his own brand, even if Patrick wasn’t part of that team.

But it’s relevant, for me, only because I loved his time at Jil Sander, disliked his era at Dior and was quite ambivalent towards what his own brand became.

Influence is undeniable. For example, we saw the shift that happened at Gucci when Christopher Bailey left in 2001 and when Alessandra Facchinetti became design director.
When Tom created his own brand, it was undeniable that his identity we definitely his own but for example, some elements of his design language were less contained because after all, his work at Gucci and YSL had the influence of his design directors.

And when thinking about RAF’s work today. I really feel like the absence of Blazy and Mulier is felt. CK was maybe a bad casting but the collections offered something interesting that could have been great at Prada.

I don’t think the uniform thing coupled with references to old shows can work everytime.

 

[Lorenzogi]

I believe in influence. It’s undeniable that presenting a more grown up vision for men and women at Jil Sander influenced his work for his own brand, even if Patrick wasn’t part of that team.

But it’s relevant, for me, only because I loved his time at Jil Sander, disliked his era at Dior and was quite ambivalent towards what his own brand became.

Influence is undeniable. For example, we saw the shift that happened at Gucci when Christopher Bailey left in 2001 and when Alessandra Facchinetti became design director.
When Tom created his own brand, it was undeniable that his identity we definitely his own but for example, some elements of his design language were less contained because after all, his work at Gucci and YSL had the influence of his design directors.

And when thinking about RAF’s work today. I really feel like the absence of Blazy and Mulier is felt. CK was maybe a bad casting but the collections offered something interesting that could have been great at Prada.

I don’t think the uniform thing coupled with references to old shows can work everytime.

You feel the absence of Blazy and Mulier??? That is ludicrous...Blazy was no longer at Raf from around 2013 onwards.
There were other senior designers at Raf such as Marieke van Dongen, who strangely goes unmentioned.

 

[Lorenzogi]

Ommeslaeghe's name is especially irrelevant in this "menswear" thread as head of menswear at Jil Sander during Raf's tenure was Paul Surridge.