The Céline syndrome

[Phuel]

^^^ I like Alessandro. However, he’s not doing anything really new— just repackaging a look, a style that’s already been around, and some may even say tired. But he’s doing it in a very precise, and within the context of the Gucci label and its history, along with the right timing, he is offering something… refreshing.

Phoebe was Stella’s assistant, and look at her now… Whereas another assistant, Kris Van Assche— should have remained an assistant, as far as I’m concerned.

Imagine if there was some Harry Potter talking hat at fashion schools that would give: “You’ll be a fashion leader one day” and “You…? You’ll be assisting Betsey Johnson and that’s it…” May as well just off yourself right there.

It’s understandable that everyone aspires to be big- even if they may be extremely limited in the talent department. But, with strong, aggressive PR and a wealthy backer, even the lesser talents have proven to be able to raise to the top. But then again, so does sh*t.

^ Agree about Dries. I thought his take on grunge was masterful. He can take anything and make it his own. He's the Tilda Swinton of fashion designers

No one is ever comparable to Tilda LOL

I client was kind enough to invite to a TIFF insider event once and we met her. I don’t care for movie stars, but meeting her— I felt like Edmund meeting the White Witch LOL She’s so surreal and otherworldly even in real life. Besides Tilda, Ewan McGregor would be the only other star I would be eager to meet.

Anyway, so many lesser designers can get away with being profitable at being copycats because most consumers of designer fashion aren’t— or just don’t care enough about high fashion like members here to be aware that Prabal copied Dries’ designs, or Jeremy’s Moschino just duplicates Franco’s original designs from 1992 and charges 2015 prices for them.

 

[fashionista-ta]

I agree that it's not new what he's doing at Gucci ... but what I do like about him is he has taste and a very particular perspective that is proving influential. His own habit of wearing a mixture of antique and contemporary rings on almost every finger for example ... I'm almost tempted to start wearing more rings myself.


The Tilda comparison isn't perfect of course ... their personal style has nothing in common. But they are both exquisite under-the-radar talents ...


A sorting hat for fashion would be hilarious, but that stuff IMO is in no way predictable for a variety of reasons.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ Sorting Hat! OMG— you know its correct name LOL

I have nothing against Frida’s Gucci— but it was all so unmemorable to me. Alessandro right off the starting line, seemed to know precisely the story he wants to tell; it’s not an original, new and fresh story, but I am really attracted to how directional it is and how committed he seems to be t it.

And yes-- the rings... little details that reveal that this "look" for the label is very much a part of who he is. I just hope he can evolve the aesthetic from collection to collection— and that he’s given the time to do so.

 

[fashionista-ta]

Come on, of course I know I do think it would probably be possible for a fashion sorting hat to separate the leaders from the followers at fashion school.


I do think there is some originality, newness, and freshness to what he's presenting though. Hard to imagine given the splash he's made (including with buyers) that he won't be given a completely fair chance.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ If you read the Sarah Bower review, the little details that are almost artisanal, really makes me appreciate Alessandro. So yes I'll agree, he is doing something very new in the current high fashion climate— as new as afforded to someone by a corporation.

You know, some people have it in them from a very early age and they just need the opportunity, while others need to develop their talent, skills, vision. I don’t know which one of those options apply to Alessandro as he’s in his 40s now when given the chance— same with Phoebe and her influence. I think Marc Jacobs is someone that took a very long time for me to finally be attracted to his designs. I hated his Perry Ellis days, and his Vuitton days are alright at best to me. With his own label, it was always love it or leave it from collection to collection. And his latest collection is one I’m very much attracted to. And that’s over 25 years into a designing career!

Are most designers given that privilege to hone their skills…? Should they even be given that long? It doesn’t matter what I think of course, but if I were the Sorting Hat LOL… Marc would be relegated to Betsey’s assistant at best-- and that's more than generous, on first impression 25 years ago.

 

[fashionista-ta]

You are not an all-knowing sorting hat, however


The Perry Ellis thing at least showed that Marc is willing to take a risk. I find Marc hit or miss ... some collections I have really loved, others seem totally phoned in. Is it me? Is it him?? But he definitely has something, and I would definitely rate him above Betsey's assistant But he's not at the very top of the game.

 

[Phuel]

^^^ If only! Who would’ve guessed that a Harry Potter reference would have made it into this conversation LOL

People like Nicolas, Alber, Dries and Phoebe— whom I think have such a strongly defined asethetic at this point in their career, and have always kept it very much grounded as well, is the reason why they are such influences. It’s very easy to just keep up with what everyone is doing and carve out a career as a glorified dressmaker masquerading as a high fashion designer if thee’s enough money supporting you. And it’s also easy to design outlandish, silly props and costumes for the body without a thought to how people will look in it in real life-- and convince the industry you’re bucking the conventions. But it takes thought and dedication to design with the purpose of flattering the human body in a fresh, new way— all sizes, not just a 5’ 11”, size 2 woman or a 6’2” man built like a professional dancer.

 

[Lola701]

I think that the "Celine syndrome" started at a key point in the history of fashion. Remember what fashion was about before 2009: the 90's saw the rise of more experimental fashion while the forces of fashion from the 80's started to disappear (Alaia, Mugler, Montana). If you think about the middle to late 90's, the most influencial designers were Tom Ford, Miuccia Prada & Helmut Lang. They all defined the aesthetic of the era.

From the early to mid 00's, the era was totally dominated by the sexy aura of Tom Ford. From Miuccia to Lang, from Lagerfeld to Lanvin, everybody was doing his version of sexy. He gave something fresh to the industry and helped his peers. What was the greatest thing? Those designers were talented and confident enough to just capture the mood of the time without copying each others.

When he left, Nicolas Ghesquiere became really this force of fashion because he has created this cult around Balenciaga. For me, Balenciaga was the ultimate fashion house. Miuccia is influencial yes but no one has been more influencial than Nicolas Ghesquiere.
But yet, Nicolas Ghesquiere was very creative but he didn't established an "aesthetic".

IMO, the mid 00's to 2009 were the "glamour" era: the rise of the redcarpet dressing, excessive runway shows, big stores, Vogue Paris and VOgue Italia are the most influencial magazines. It was a time when people craved for luxury and excess: Balmain, Dolce & Gabbana, the return of Donatella, the Dior madness, the Chanel OTT runway shows, Chanel's Resorts collections.

Before Phoebe Philo, Stefano Pilati was really the first one to go for this return to modesty and minimalism with his FW2007 but it was without conviction.
I remember, her first ever collection was critisized for looking too much like YSL by Pilati but she had a vision and suddenly, seeing real, simple and well constructed clothes on a runway seemed possible.
She redefined the notion of luxury by adopting the Margiela method at hermes: shapes, materials,simplicity.

Fashion needed that. The fact that she was intelligent enough to move from that aesthetic to something more abstract influenced a lot of designers.
The thing is that, if you're looking at her collections, you will see some glimpses of Ghesquiere, Elbaz, Ford, Lang, Lagerfeld, Prada, CDG...etc.

I feel like we will always need a strong designer to respond to the excess of fashion. Like the ones before her, her fashion will always be around and slightly influencial but now, i feel like Hedi Slimane is the biggest influence now.
Not in terms of design but in terms of the approach of fashion.

 

[fashionista-ta]

Yes, Slimane is in little danger of influencing design ...


To me, Nicolas had a clear futuristic, fembot aesthetic at Balenciaga.

 

[BetteT]

Mod Note:

Thread Moved from Fashion In Depth.

 

[ghostwriter10549]

Ok, so now, with all the news that we heard I think its time this thread a revival.

I agreed with most everyone here, but I think that something need to be add in this conversation.

The global crises of 2008 and the rise of Celine, IMO, had a side effect: the rise of Zara, or the fast fashion market. I remember back in 2011 the windows of Zara full of the Celine copycats, and dont think that I find PP designers simples, but it was easy to these big corporations to emulate a Celine dress and sell for SO MUCH LESS, and its something that doesn't happen today that we living a Gucci by Alessandro trend era, they can't sell us a Gucci jacket that do the same thing that the original does. The huge growth of the Zara was only possible because of Celine.

This is something that I have thinking about the past year and I wanna hear what you guys think about.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I have some doubts as to whether these two things are related ...

There was a lot of press around the time of the global financial crisis that women were buying less, but more statementy, items, and that price was at least sometimes less of a consideration, because they were buying less. IOW, the items really needed to be special. Everyone had a pair of black pants already.

Now, quite possibly this analysis doesn't apply to the Zara customer. But minimalism didn't original with Celine either.

 

[dodencebt]

But it was easy to these big corporations to emulate a Celine dress and sell for SO MUCH LESS, and its something that doesn't happen today that we living a Gucci by Alessandro trend era, they can't sell us a Gucci jacket that do the same thing that the original does.

Really? I'd say the embroidered copies that Zara does are more similar to the original Gucci bullsh*t than the closest they've ever got to recreating a Celine piece. You can't get the same shape with cheap fabrics as much as you try.

 

[YohjiAddict]

^Ditto. Pheobe's Céline was seen not as a novelty act but as the very best when it comes to wardrobe staples not just because of the design but because of the pristine tailoring and finishing. At the end of the day most of her work will stand the test of time wereas the copies were meant to be disposed of shortly after.

 

[ghostwriter10549]

Well, what I was trying to say is that when Celine made minimalism hot again, I was easy for the fast-fashion sell to the people this ideia of "luxury". Of course the you cant compare a Celine dress with a Zara dress, but the ideia that they are selling that you could be in fashion with less money really got the people.

I guess now the Gucci itens are had more details and a poor execution of Zara make everything worse, its not the same thing with Celine, at that time, at least, we had a nice dress on the windows of Zara.

 

[Deleted member 130879]

I agree with YohjiAddict: it's easier for cheap brands to successfully copy Gucci (and YSL) than Céline. It's all a matter of fabric quality. Gucci's fabrics are easier to match with synthetic options or cheap options - tons of cotton, silk-satins, silk blends, velvet, lamé,... Even bad quality fabrics will kind of resemble that "80s trash" look. To copy Céline you really need good quality wools, cashmere,... And good tailoring. There's nothing there to catch your attention besides the fabric quality and tailoring. No embroidery, prints, shiny things. Zara is far from doing it successfully (I even think Mango had a few more successful copies with their Premium line - yet above Zara's price range).

Even smaller brands and designers that resemble Céline on instagram have price tags above 200€.