Chanel Pre-Fall 2022 Paris

[Lola701]

What would you say is the primary difference between ready to wear and couture... I know that you note that its more detailed and less adventurous (which is super helpful) but as someone who is trying to educate themselves on high end fashion I would love the opportunity to hear more about what differenterates the two.

What I said is only applicable for Chanel Haute Couture and what it has been since Karl took it.

But in essence, Couture is simply made to measure and made by hand. Simple as that. RTW has a sizing chart and is mostly made with machines.

You can have a simple column dress as Couture and a super embroidered dress as RTW.

But at Chanel, Karl blurred the lines sometimes because they have extremely skilled Ateliers.

In essence, @Frederic01 explained a lot of things even if it’s not systematic.
For example, I have a tweed down jacket from the Ritz collection and a jacket from the Rocket collection. It’s extremely similar in terms of craftsmanship and finishing.

Haute Couture, even if I have never experienced it myself, in a very pragmatic way, offer more creative imput to the client. See it as a service. While when you buy RTW, you can have it altered, Couture is made for you, so you can add a sleeve, change a neckline, change the color, change a skirt into a dress…As long as it maintain the integrity of the design. That’s for example why Galliano at Dior was involved in that process.
He did crazy things on the runway but they weren’t pragmatic for a woman’s life. So most of the times, a crazy look could be interpreted in 5 different looks.

And, contrary to what @Frederic01 said, Costume Jewelry are allowed, as they are part of the Fashion department. Haute Joaillerie, much like perfumes are a separate entity at Chanel.
But, with Haute Couture and Metiers d’Arts, they are made by Goosens or Desrues. And of course the quality is not the same as for the regular RTW costume Jewelry stuff.

The costume Jewelry from the Egyptian collection was stunning.

 

[entten]

I decided to not judge only from pictures but always try to watch the runway video if there is one, as I noticed that it often gives me a totally different impression of the collection.

I watched the video and I really like most of it. It has somehow a fresh,girly and modern approach of Chanel

 

[chanelh]

Chanel turns off the comment function on youtube for show videos this year, and only the show videos, it's like they silently admit that we are not making good designs but, hey, the collections sell!

 

[JohannesL]

Thanks a lot for both Frederic's and Lola's insights, which are part of the reasons that I always come back to TFS.

 

[Caffeine]

One of the principle differences between Chanel RTW and Haute Couture is the tweed they use. In RTW, there are three types of tweed, Uni, Fantasy, and Lesage. Haute Couture uses the same combination, but with a focus on producing exclusive tweeds for that collection. You will see a lot of Lesage tweeds in Haute Couture.

Uni Tweed is the very plain (typically single yarn) tweed:
View attachment 1192468
Vogue Runway

Fantasy Tweed is more complex, usually using more yarns, which gives a depth to the tweed:
View attachment 1192467
Vogue Runway

Lesage Tweed is a hand-made tweed made on a loom which incorporates several types of yarns, and which can include ribbon (as below), which is incorporated on the loom. Lesage tweeds are very expensive to make, because only a small amount of tweed fabric can be made per hour. An example from the collection:
View attachment 1192466
Vogue Runway

Other differences include the fabrics (Haute Couture fabrics are more expensive by the meter and often produced exclusively for Chanel), no CC logos on buttons or elsewhere (the buttons are usually hand-crafted and often look like jewels), no costume jewellery, and of course more craftsmanship like embroidery, featherwork, etc. A lot of the work happens behind the scenes for example too, like in fabric development which sometimes takes years of experimentation to achieve the desired result.

The last vest/coat don't look like an obvious lesage to me?

This vest from the cruise collection is a more classic Lesage fabric with braided patterns.

 

[Caffeine]

It’s inoffensive and basic and the fit issues will be solved in stores.
It’s just another collection. The problem is that it lacks the special nature of Metiers D’Arts. Metiers d’Arts is supposed to be the line between RTW and Couture…More detailed than RTW but less adventurous in terms of silhouettes or fabric treatment/experimentation than Couture.

And more than that, this is supposed to be the highest form of sophistication available at Chanel in terms of RTW.

Seriously, this doesn’t necessarily makes me want to buy new Chanel. I’ll keep my Karl stuff, continue to buy some archives but that’s it.

Just curious, what brands are you into nowadays? I go through phases...who do you find interesting now?

CC logos

This absolutely drives me crazy. I don't understand why she would make things full of loud logos. Who wears those things? They are atrocious! I told my SA that I will not touch anything with logos, which eliminated 70% of the winter collection

 

[brandon J pierre]

One of the principle differences between Chanel RTW and Haute Couture is the tweed they use. In RTW, there are three types of tweed, Uni, Fantasy, and Lesage. Haute Couture uses the same combination, but with a focus on producing exclusive tweeds for that collection. You will see a lot of Lesage tweeds in Haute Couture.

Uni Tweed is the very plain (typically single yarn) tweed:
View attachment 1192468
Vogue Runway

Fantasy Tweed is more complex, usually using more yarns, which gives a depth to the tweed:
View attachment 1192467
Vogue Runway

Lesage Tweed is a hand-made tweed made on a loom which incorporates several types of yarns, and which can include ribbon (as below), which is incorporated on the loom. Lesage tweeds are very expensive to make, because only a small amount of tweed fabric can be made per hour. An example from the collection:
View attachment 1192466
Vogue Runway

Other differences include the fabrics (Haute Couture fabrics are more expensive by the meter and often produced exclusively for Chanel), no CC logos on buttons or elsewhere (the buttons are usually hand-crafted and often look like jewels), no costume jewellery, and of course more craftsmanship like embroidery, featherwork, etc. A lot of the work happens behind the scenes for example too, like in fabric development which sometimes takes years of experimentation to achieve the desired result.

Thank you for this

 

[Frederic01]

The last vest/coat don't look like an obvious lesage to me?
View attachment 1192538
This vest from the cruise collection is a more classic Lesage fabric with braided patterns.

Anything with a ribbon (if you look closely you can see the Chanel ribbon in white printed with the CC logo and word "Coco") is a kind of Lesage tweed, because it has to be woven/embroidered into the tweed either by hand or on a loom. It's a technique Chanel has used before many times, but I could only find the below video, showing how it is done!


CHANEL

 

[LoveFashion25]

For me it just seems like a been there done that type of ordeal.

 

[annikad]

I don't want to see a granny jumper on a Chanel catwalk.

 

[Frederic01]

Thank you for this

Also I forgot to mention that in Couture it is also about the level of craftsmanship and skills of the petites main, who have often worked for years (sometimes decades) in perfecting their skills in the craft of Haute Couture, learning stitches and techniques to finish the garments that take an extraordinary amount of time, and therefore cannot be used in the making of ready-to-wear. Couture=skills. It's something that we can't see on photos because all the work is hidden.

I remember a few years ago I spotted a roll of printed silk fabric at a luxury textile supplier in my city, and I recognised it immediately from the Chanel Haute Couture S/S 2016 collection. The fabric was produced by a Swiss textile manufacturer called Jakob Schlaepfer, who develops fabrics for Chanel. Of course in the show, the fabric was completely transformed through the vision of Karl and the craftsmanship of the atelier. The point is that even though anyone can purchase that fabric, it's only in the hands of those petites main that it will be transformed into a couture garment.

This absolutely drives me crazy. I don't understand why she would make things full of loud logos. Who wears those things? They are atrocious! I told my SA that I will not touch anything with logos, which eliminated 70% of the winter collection

As depressing as it is, this is what a lot of clients buy and a large portion of RTW sales. That embroidered CC top from Virginie's first Metiers d'art collection for example was sold out everywhere, and they had to keep reproducing it (I can see a reiteration of that piece here in colourful flowers (Look 14) which is bound to be a best-seller). The knitwear and jackets with all the logo's that Viard does every season is so popular, you cannot imagine how many people I have seen with those pieces! Even Haute Couture clients can't resist the CC logo emblazoned all over their jackets. I know a lady who has purchased HC and Haute Joaillerie, and she loves a good CC logo plastered all over her jackets. Bizarre, no?

 

[Bugsy]

I didn't like this collection. The clothes are just blah. Same old, same old. I liked it better when Karl Lagerfeild was in charge. Also, the models are totally boring. They look like they are sleeping pills and none of them have really strong faces. The whole thing was just boring. Forgetable.

 

[Caffeine]

Also I forgot to mention that in Couture it is also about the level of craftsmanship and skills of the petites main, who have often worked for years (sometimes decades) in perfecting their skills in the craft of Haute Couture, learning stitches and techniques to finish the garments that take an extraordinary amount of time, and therefore cannot be used in the making of ready-to-wear. Couture=skills. It's something that we can't see on photos because all the work is hidden.

I remember a few years ago I spotted a roll of printed silk fabric at a luxury textile supplier in my city, and I recognised it immediately from the Chanel Haute Couture S/S 2016 collection. The fabric was produced by a Swiss textile manufacturer called Jakob Schlaepfer, who develops fabrics for Chanel. Of course in the show, the fabric was completely transformed through the vision of Karl and the craftsmanship of the atelier. The point is that even though anyone can purchase that fabric, it's only in the hands of those petites main that it will be transformed into a couture garment.



As depressing as it is, this is what a lot of clients buy and a large portion of RTW sales. That embroidered CC top from Virginie's first Metiers d'art collection for example was sold out everywhere, and they had to keep reproducing it (I can see a reiteration of that piece here in colourful flowers (Look 14) which is bound to be a best-seller). The knitwear and jackets with all the logo's that Viard does every season is so popular, you cannot imagine how many people I have seen with those pieces! Even Haute Couture clients can't resist the CC logo emblazoned all over their jackets. I know a lady who has purchased HC and Haute Joaillerie, and she loves a good CC logo plastered all over her jackets. Bizarre, no?

God helps us!

 

[velvetandsilk]

What would you say is the primary difference between ready to wear and couture... I know that you note that its more detailed and less adventurous (which is super helpful) but as someone who is trying to educate themselves on high end fashion I would love the opportunity to hear more about what differenterates the two.

When designer are creating RTW collection also has production restrictions. Production is commission different compant which working for a lot of comapny. You have remember about time production beacuse buyer and customer want get goods very fast. Due to you can't use something complex technics or fabric. Moreover, resign to producted accurate inner layer of the garment. Perfect clothes should look wonderfull also inside. In the HC you long production is add good value which impact the higher price. The serving customers is very specific. Fashion house likes Dior and Chanel have accurate measurements the most significant and loyal customer, for example customer can only call and told what she wants. Except to, customer can booked on exclusivity some dress. Fashion house offer exclusivity on the country, the continent or the world.

 

[Lola701]

Just curious, what brands are you into nowadays? I go through phases...who do you find interesting now?

I find your question interesting but I don’t feel like I’m « into brands now ». Before, I had that fantasy of « ultimate brands », that idea of a brand you can almost wear from head to toe and that really represented your style. For me for a longtime it was Balenciaga by Nicolas Ghesquiere.
I love Chanel but let’s be honest, the pleasure of being able to really enjoy the brand and have it part of your day to day style is a luxury that is reserved for a very small portion of the population. At Balenciaga, the runway stuff was very expensive but the boutiques collection were very much more affordable (in that lane of fashion).

But to be totally transparent, I’ve always been more faithful to designers than brands when it comes to clothes. My taste goes from Tom Ford to Junya Watanabe, from Ghesquiere’s Vuitton to Lutz Huelle or Martin Grant. In the middle of all those things, I can buy more day pragmatic pieces from Acne Studios, Cos or Tara Jarmon , Ami or fun stuff from Tongoro. When it comes to accessories, it’s a bit different. With bags, I prefer Alaia, Moynat or Loewe to Hermès or Dior.

For me fashion is interesting to wear and enjoy when you are able to integrate it in your daily life. That’s why maybe the approach of Slimane at Celine or even Virginie at Chanel does not touch me. Yes, it’s about status and power as much as it is about craftsmanship and cut but I think it’s fair to need and expect something else at those prices.
Tailoring is always a safe bet, but I’m not going to Celine, or Dior or whatever for a denim shirt or a hoodie…
There are so much propositions and contemporary brands are much more interesting now that it’s a bit overwhelming. But if I try to answer your question, I would say Nicolas Ghesquiere and JWA are the ones I’m always interested in because it’s always audacious and challenging. I wish I would have said younger, up and coming designers of lesser known names but I’m always a bit underwhelmed by the younger generation in terms of either construction and techniques, imagination or references.

I feel like there’s a real lack of culture of fashion that prevent a lot of younger designers to evolve in terms of creativity or technicality. And I think that with JWA, particularly at Loewe, beyond the halo of fake intellectualism, you see more and more the confidence in clothes-making and references.

 

[Caffeine]

I find your question interesting but I don’t feel like I’m « into brands now ». Before, I had that fantasy of « ultimate brands », that idea of a brand you can almost wear from head to toe and that really represented your style. For me for a longtime it was Balenciaga by Nicolas Ghesquiere.
I love Chanel but let’s be honest, the pleasure of being able to really enjoy the brand and have it part of your day to day style is a luxury that is reserved for a very small portion of the population. At Balenciaga, the runway stuff was very expensive but the boutiques collection were very much more affordable (in that lane of fashion).

But to be totally transparent, I’ve always been more faithful to designers than brands when it comes to clothes. My taste goes from Tom Ford to Junya Watanabe, from Ghesquiere’s Vuitton to Lutz Huelle or Martin Grant. In the middle of all those things, I can buy more day pragmatic pieces from Acne Studios, Cos or Tara Jarmon , Ami or fun stuff from Tongoro. When it comes to accessories, it’s a bit different. With bags, I prefer Alaia, Moynat or Loewe to Hermès or Dior.

For me fashion is interesting to wear and enjoy when you are able to integrate it in your daily life. That’s why maybe the approach of Slimane at Celine or even Virginie at Chanel does not touch me. Yes, it’s about status and power as much as it is about craftsmanship and cut but I think it’s fair to need and expect something else at those prices.
Tailoring is always a safe bet, but I’m not going to Celine, or Dior or whatever for a denim shirt or a hoodie…
There are so much propositions and contemporary brands are much more interesting now that it’s a bit overwhelming. But if I try to answer your question, I would say Nicolas Ghesquiere and JWA are the ones I’m always interested in because it’s always audacious and challenging. I wish I would have said younger, up and coming designers of lesser known names but I’m always a bit underwhelmed by the younger generation in terms of either construction and techniques, imagination or references.

I feel like there’s a real lack of culture of fashion that prevent a lot of younger designers to evolve in terms of creativity or technicality. And I think that with JWA, particularly at Loewe, beyond the halo of fake intellectualism, you see more and more the confidence in clothes-making and references.

coincidentally I was a huge Balenciaga fan when Nicholas was there. Now that Nicholas has moved on to Vuitton, however, I found neither Balenciaga nor Vuitton appealing to me. I actually liked Vuitton when Marc Jacobs was there.

I've also moved on to more feminine looks at Chanel compared to Balenciaga. I agree with you on the Balenciaga basics...Occasionally I would even take a Balenciaga piece from the Nicholas years from TRR and still find it very wearable - those tend to be the less run-way statement pieces but the more commercial pieces. I still have my 2006 jackets/pants with paisley prints even though I don't wear them enough as I wished...there are just days when I'm in that mood
Also agree that Chanel is not a place for basics. The way their store managers place buy orders is not for head to toe looks either.

Sadly after 2008, fashion is no longer the same. More consolidated and more profit-driven. But that's for another topic :-)

 

[yslforever]

Those discussions on the Chanel tweeds are fascinating, I wonder how they'll come up on courts when the Chanel vs Saint-Laurent plagiarism lawsuit will be public.

 

[Lola701]

coincidentally I was a huge Balenciaga fan when Nicholas was there. Now that Nicholas has moved on to Vuitton, however, I found neither Balenciaga nor Vuitton appealing to me. I actually liked Vuitton when Marc Jacobs was there.

I've also moved on to more feminine looks at Chanel compared to Balenciaga. I agree with you on the Balenciaga basics...Occasionally I would even take a Balenciaga piece from the Nicholas years from TRR and still find it very wearable - those tend to be the less run-way statement pieces but the more commercial pieces. I still have my 2006 jackets/pants with paisley prints even though I don't wear them enough as I wished...there are just days when I'm in that mood
Also agree that Chanel is not a place for basics. The way their store managers place buy orders is not for head to toe looks either.

Sadly after 2008, fashion is no longer the same. More consolidated and more profit-driven. But that's for another topic :-)

I prefer Marc’s shows to Nicolas’s…But I prefer Nicolas’s collections to Marc’s.

Between 2006 and 2009, I was really into Marc’s Vuitton. The clothes spoke to me on a different level and the accessories were always fun. I remember how hard it was to get the red leopard from FW06 for example. I have like every shoes from the major collections of that time. But after 2010, for me the clothes were suddenly less my cup of tea. It was still exceptional, still a highlight and everybody loved Marc at Vuitton but it was suddenly very about the shows and not so much the clothes.
Spring 2011 was a fabulous show. Totally decadent and I loved it. But in fact only the shoes and footwear were desirable. One time I saw a woman with a yellow damier suit from the damier collection…Probably one of the most unflattering shoulder shape I’ve ever seen. She looked like a playmobile.

Ultimately, Nicolas has a different approach from Marc. That’s why it’s hard for me to compare. Marc worked for the show…Nicolas has maybe a more wardrobe-oriented approach.

Spring 2006 was a great season! That being said I feel like the whole brocard Prince look has more aged than a lot of his other shows. I have one jacket and one blouse. It definitely elevate a look.

I think that the crisis of 2008 influenced fashion but I feel like after maybe one or two seasons of designers going back to their roots, there was a resurgence of creativity and frivolity. But I feel like fashion post our current crisis will be less and less about creativity. The end of the 2010’s was already a teaser for what to come…Collaborations, merch, products, clothes and at the end, less aspirational fashion. That’s why I cherish those, like Nicolas or JWA, who despite commercial success have more to offer than another collab and drops.

 

[Caffeine]

Chanel vs Saint-Laurent plagiarism lawsuit

This is news to me. Do you mind elaborating?

 

[yslforever]

This is news to me. Do you mind elaborating?

It's is not public yet so I don't know what to say. Do you remember the SL winter 21 tweed suits and Chanel's reaction ?
WWD May 4th, Bruno Pavlovsky :
“How sad to see a brand like that parasite another brand. Saint Laurent is a magnificent brand. I think it’s such a shame not to write your own history and to have to sponge off someone else. But the customers won’t be fooled. The customers will decide which brand makes the most beautiful tweed jacket. I’m not too worried,” he said.
Apparently they prefer a real court now instead of the customers: both legal teams are in full steam ahead a preliminary audience, and Saint-Laurent is skimming in their archives to show all the different times YSL used tweed like that. Wonder who will bring the story first.