Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion

Well I am Dior Homme fan and I will tell you that reason why I like hedi so much as that he doesn't make clothes that hang off of me. That and he focuses on youth and rock culture which is good for me (as I am 19 and love rock music). Raf Simons and Anne Demuelmeester may have started the aesthetic but it is Hedi who makes it explicitly for thin people. Not that Raf and Anne's clothes are terribly loose, but Hedi makes clothes that embrace a more androgynous aspect that is very nice. Japan's interest in the label goes along with that. Eastern aesthetics have always had a different view of gender roles and how that is delt with in clothes. They have also had a different take on beauty in regards to the human form. While in the west we bound our women up with corsettes to emphasize their curves, loose and fairly modest kimonos were worn by women in Japan. Dior Homme is ambigous in defining gender which is very appropriate for modern east asia.
 
raimund said:
Kit,

It's definitely an interesting cross-disciplinary research topic. In fact there're times when the same thoughts as yours on the correlation between posturepaedics and aesthetics of modern times have flashed in my mind, yet without an extended analysis in a humanistic, socio-political, cultural and economic perspective, or as borrowed from strategic management, an "external audit" on the issue. Before we're to investigate further into the issue, should we start by the evolution of aesthetics from a historical viewpoint, both oriental and occidental?

Raimund

Raimund ,

Many thanks for your prompt reply . :flower:

You've hit me with a hard one here :cry: .

I'll need to give this some thought before I dare venture a reply .:unsure:

KIT
 
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Mutterlein said:
clothes that embrace a more androgynous aspect that is very nice. ...Eastern aesthetics have always had a different view of gender roles and how that is delt with in clothes. They have also had a different take on beauty in regards to the human form. While in the west we bound our women up with corsettes to emphasize their curves, loose and fairly modest kimonos were worn by women in Japan. Dior Homme is ambigous in defining gender which is very appropriate for modern east asia.

very interesting observation... :flower: ...you may have just hit on the very reason i am so attracted to japanese designers...but i do think that many of the belgians share this fondness for androgyny...ann, for example often does clothing that is completely unisex...i know some of our members own her women's pieces and i own several comme menswear pieces...

and even though this is true...as a western woman...i still find that i am adverse to completley obscuring my sexuality...even if it is only my neck or wrist ...i have a tendency to want to show my femininity...even if it's in a very subtle way...i think this is particularly true of american women...though most are not so subtle...

not sure about europe?...
hmmm....

all that posturepaedic stuff is way over my head... :doh: :huh:

we have a mattress company called posturepedic...but i'm guessing that's not what you guys are referring to... ;) :lol: :innocent:
 
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It's an interesting point you make there kit, but I don't think I have an answer for it...perhaps it's another attempt by the Asian people to try and be more Western..I have heard this remark fro the first time on Oprah so it sounded logical to me I guess...
 
softgrey said:
we shall see...
:shifty:

I don't think we should merge. Not sure why Dior homme fans should have a monopoly on discussing culture, aesthetics and fashion. If they're as narrowly obsessed as softie says, that's probably all we need to know about them and their thoughts on this particular subject, no?
 
who's merging??...kit simply extended an invitation...

no worries my dear.. ;) B)
 
Johnny said:
I don't think we should merge. Not sure why Dior homme fans should have a monopoly on discussing culture, aesthetics and fashion. If they're as narrowly obsessed as softie says, that's probably all we need to know about them and their thoughts on this particular subject, no?

I didn't suggest a merge , but a link , Johnny , which I have made , by leaving a message on the new Dior Homme thread , asking those interested to turn to this thread and to try and answer my questions .

Members have done this , so let's see what we get .:innocent:
 
While in the west we bound our women up with corsettes to emphasize their curves

Corsets could be seen as more indicative of the old fashioned sport of woman-repressing though, which Asian cultures are equally as guilty of (think foot-binding).

I think Hedi takes Ann, Raf and friends and slickly packages it into a nice mainstream collection of attractive, wearable clothes while throwing in a few 'trendy'-isms.
 
Alright, so I was drawn here by Kit's post in the DH thread (yep! one of those guys....)

Being Chinese and being around many other asians here in Boston, I can say that the asian build is in general more slim than our black, white, red, purple counterparts.

In fact, I was describing girls that I found to be attractive to my friend a couple days ago and he summed it all up in "boyish". That being the asian build of small breasts, slim build, smaller hips. Not saying that only asians have this, but it seems to be more pervasive in our race than others.

So with that being said (and with what Kit says in terms of the general asian population's height increasing every generation), overall the asian community seems to fit the marketed silhouette of Dior Homme/Cloak/etc.

If you combine this build with the asian penchant for nice things, then you can see how we can be drawn to a brand that seemingly caters very specifically for us. Many other brands are quite nice, but we all buy brands because of their cut and how we like the way it sits on our bodies.

As for the very tunnel-visioned buying of ONLY DH, I can only speculate... I myself have been doing this (still am, but I'm coming around.. i swear!) for near two years now and I've got a little box of gray hangtags to prove it.

I think there are factors of brand loyalty, a not-knowing of other brands out there, and a reluctance to put money into something new.

If Dior has been consistently good, and provides everything that you're looking for in a brand (perhaps moreso since Dior markets an entire image and look rather than just pieces which other brands tend to do... very clever of Hedi hahaha) then there isn't a reason to buy anything different. This is further reinforced if you are unaware of other designers that also create clothes in a semi-similar style to Slimane's and who have influenced his styling. The Belgians have practically zero advertisements in the US, and Cloak doesn't either. With Dior women's ads just about everywhere, and then Dior Homme ads strategically placed in GQ and the like, Dior stays quite fresh in everyones mind.

Finally, spending money on a new designer is always a risk. Even if you like a piece, it is difficult to stray from what you know and what you're comfortable with. This is especially true if you're dropping no less than $200 on a single item. I personally find myself willing to spend several hundreds on a Dior Homme item I find very nice, but much less on a non DH item that I may like as well. It's that risk, and I end up hedging my bet.

All the Dior bashing that has been going around because of this (pardon the pun) lack-luster season has forced people (well... at least me) to look into other designers. Thanks to the crap at DH right now, I now have a little Marc Jacobs and Ann D. in my closet.

I think in general, it's commercialization, and knowing who to cater to that seems to rule the current fashion scene for the willing-to-spend masses.

That's my take on it all. It's tough to break this "phenomenon" down to its building blocks!

-Albert
 
so...bottom line...what i got from that mostly is...advertising and marketing work...
yes?... :p :innocent:
 
Many thanks chinorlz :flower: for your views , which together with what Mutterlein says , explains why this particular look is so attractive in the East - I believe a huge proportion of Dior Homme profits come from there .


What I find ironic is that such a wasted , rather decadent , druggy , if not anorexic style , is so attractive to young people in areas of increasing affluence .
My nephew teaches English in Shanghai , and on visits to Hong Kong he noted the popularity of Dior Homme .

BTW , by ' posturepaedic ' , I meant that some of Hedi's jackets , especially the heavy leather winter ones , fit SO tightly that it's almost as if one is wearing a medical garment to correct ones posture .

I suppose it COULD have sado-masochistic overtones , but we will NOT go there........

Thanks to everyone for their views .:flower: :flower: :flower:
 
PrinceOfCats said:
Corsets could be seen as more indicative of the old fashioned sport of woman-repressing though, which Asian cultures are equally as guilty of (think foot-binding).

I think Hedi takes Ann, Raf and friends and slickly packages it into a nice mainstream collection of attractive, wearable clothes while throwing in a few 'trendy'-isms.
It's not a matter of guilt, its just how it effects image. What does chinese foot binding have to do with Japan's lack of focus on female curves in their cultural definition of beauty?
 
I would say a lot of it is marketing and advertising work.
Combined with the power of the brand behind it.
Of course most people assume something with the dior label is of good quality.

I would agree with Prince of Cats saying that Hedi takes these cult designers and packages them into something trendy and mainstream, this is completely true.

In a recent interview with Raf Simons in Anthem magazine, his unwillingness to answer questions regarding his opinions of Slimane's work suggests that he may not think so highly of him.
 
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Softie, yeah I'd say that marketing clearly does work. If you mix this in with people's view that dior label = high quality then people are clearly sold on it.
 
raijin said:
I would say a lot of it is marketing and advertising work.
Combined with the power of the brand behind it.
Of course most people assume something with the dior label is of good quality.

I would agree with Prince of Cats saying that Hedi takes these cult designers and packages them into something trendy and mainstream, this is completely true.

In a recent interview with Raf Simons in Anthem magazine, his unwillingness to answer questions regarding his opinions of Slimane's work suggests that he may not think so highly of him.

This is COMPLETE RUMOUR AND UTTER SPECULATION so do not take this with a grain of salt...but I heard they were once an item. I have no idea how true this is.
 
Right, have been AFK for a while, have had a lot of catching up to on this thread alone :blink:

Haha... it always goes back to Dior Homme, doesn't it?!

It'd be interesting to know honestly how many of the people who have jumped onto the DH 'bandwagon' recently are doing so because of the mass commercialisation & expansion of the brand or because of the intrinsic artistry from the early collections.

And how much of these 2 factors/what balance (and sure there are other factors too, but lets say for now, one is the artistic side, the business-consumer oriented) first initiated the early DH phoenemenon?

A bit about me; i am of HK background (raised & residing in London), a sample of my wardrobe consists of Demeulemeester, Lang, Sander, Schonberger, Margiela, M+F Girbaud, APC, Delcour. Myself as well as a number of the early founders of the DH Group were already following Slimane's work from his menswear at YSL pre-Gucci acquisition. The creation of the DH project was something new, it was a very directional/creative approach for an established house such as Christian Dior, especially so with Slimane at the head of creative direction.

I also think one has to differentiate between simply those who are put simply 'logo/label whores' and those who actually appreciate the artistic creativity in the work behind the 'brand'. The whole ensemble played a large part for me, the creation of the 'flou' department in the atelier looking into the couture aspect of drape/movement, the staff that were recruited, the attention to detail (a couple of entirely hand crafted pieces in Solitaire, sequins sewn into the trouser pleat folds), the initial campaigns beautifully shot by the late Richard Avedon.

Sure that the power of the 'brand' Dior plays a factor in a consumerist respect, especially prevalent in the Japanese/Asian market as noted earlier on. But for a handful (well, more than that i hope) it also represents a lot for it simply being Monsieur Christian Dior's house; his 'new look' in 1947, a lot more socio-cultural for some of us. I'm a Francophile at heart!

Some people do simply buy according to label, but it goes without saying there are a number of us who do see the line and do realise what is and what isn't worth paying for. Especially so when the 'Bertelli effect' kicks in and quality decreases in addition to Arnault's commercialisation for the Euro1bn sales target. What typifies my purchasing regarding DH now is simply what i like the look of and what i don't, it has become less special and sure, the quantity i buy has decreased, moreso as the sizing marginally increases each day and i'm very skinny.

In terms of the business ideal, what started as a unique project concept amassed a great deal of attention which inevitably became highly desireable by consumers. Limited supplies resulted in high demand (sorry, i'm an Economics major haha) and thus with brand power, the selling and desire for the good (in this case, the overall lifestyle image) furthered the consumer cycle. Which in turns lead to a certain conglomerate shifting the once unique project ideal into a mass market entity having been established.

I'd like to see Hedi Slimane under his own label or doing womenswear. In fact, i'd want to see Alber Elbaz do mens.

Fade to Black pretty much sums up HK. It is a past-faced, money driven city with the citizens placing heavy emphasis on wealth. Fundamentally due to Chinese nature to have 'face'; to be more endowed than one's peers, more than often in material wealth. I like the place for a vacation, its a dynamic city but one i feel which lacks artistic creativity in the citizens.

(One may regard Tokyo be creatively and artistically driven, but imho and experience it is a place where creativity and freedom is probably the hardest thing to attain. Come on, a place which places social stigma on not owning a LV Monogram Canvas item? Where a large majority of fashion magazines are essentially catalogue listings and the media with a few select icons dictating what the masses wear. And sure enough, the masses will obey, they will follow. What would it take to truly/ideologically different in Jpn/Tokyo, by basis of street fashion culture, how much further?)

Anyway, that can be discussed later. I dont see HK as a city without any aesthetic culture, the ArtWalk event is an example, HK cinema is another heavy example. Wong Kar-Wai/Christopher Doyle anyone? What is typical of HK youth is that exemplified in contemporary Japanese culture, the following of the mass, mass commercialisation (even when its in a very micro/underground level with small brands - Bathing Ape being one example). The hoarding of Y-3 and Bernhard Willhelm (yes the latter being a strange one huh? A 'small' brand, but again, highly popular because of the media).

Anyhow, my 2 cents so far, go easy on me :flower: In need of sleep, its 6.45am..!
 
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softgrey said:
who's merging??...kit simply extended an invitation...

no worries my dear.. ;) B)

OK sorry sg, sorry kit. I got the wrong end of the stick. I was in a bad mood lastnight too!:lol:
 
no prob johnny boy...xx.. :kiss:

doo....that was very fascinating towards the end when you started talking more about culture and less about dior homme...LOL...

can you expand on the concept of having 'face'...this is a particularly eastern phenomenon and i don't know that i have ever been able to truly grasp it...
i know it is connected to honour...but perhaps you can help me to understand this cultural issue a bit better...thx... :flower:

kit...thx for the clarification...regarding posturpedic...now i get it... ;)
i would have gotten s&m right away ... :innocent:
 
My first post here:-)
I have to read all the posts once again:-) The topic is soo complexed and "wide".
I'd like to add my thought about Asian people's interests in Dior Homme.

I think that Raf S. and Ann D. didnt't catch much of people attention because their aesthetics are much more rebelious, than of Dior Homme. DH is all about the "new" glamour, new luxury to me. And it is aimed at the youth at the very begining.

I do think rebelious attitude is never a strong side of youth's culture in Asia. This is our culture and history, with domination of Confucianism. Asian people bought Armany and Gucci before. Now they are buying DH. It is all about power, status and luxury. Even if DH has an air of rebel, it is only because of the young, not grown up image.

Again. Raf S and Ann D. are not even very popular in Europe. So the scale might be more less the same in Asia.

And it is not because people just follow the big brands. Dior is always big in Japan and among Asian people. Like Hermes, Chanel. This is the "historical:-) French"'s magic. But nobody was interested in Dior Monsieur before Hedi S. And I agree that the first DH collections and shows were really new, sharp, fresh and powerful. Much more than the work of Hedi for YSL, imo. It's the first modern line that broke out from the old league of french fashion.
 
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geez...ngth...are you asian too?...
is everyone asian?...wow..!!! :shock: :unsure: ^_^
 

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