Culture, Aesthetics and Fashion Discussion

[Spacemiu]

I know someone who's been diagnosed with it, and being misunderstood is definitely a HUGE part of depression being manifest. But knowing someone or not is not the main point. I would like to reverse the scenario. Let's say you suffer from depression. What triggers that chemical imbalance mostly? It's the state of agitation. And what can agitate you more then misunderstanding, multiplied to immense proportions by the masses and the media? I know I'd go insane...

I understand what you are saying, but they are also clearly self destructive people befor they killed them selves, but I do agree and I understand from personal experience.

and softgrey, please stop your LA bashing bullsh*t, there is no need for it and you don't even know so don't even talk.

 

[softgrey]

what don't i know space?...how do YOU know what I know?...
and please do not speak to me that way...it is very rude...

 

[purechris]

maybe I can help here soft....

First of all, I've been thinking a lot about this thread over the weekend. It seems that everywhere I turn something related to our discussion is being discussed. Y'day on NPR there was a discussion about how we are fetishizing material things. More specifically it was about electronics. How the remote control has changed the way television is programed and how commercials are being affected by Tivo and now it's all about product placement. How everybody is walking around with their Ipod turned on and missing what is really going on around them. Maybe that doesn't quite make sense to you guys, but when I was listening it directly related to this.
I was reading Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides y'day and this paragraph really hit the nail on the head (for me and America, anyway). He's talking about the rebuilding of Detroit after the fire:

"Judge Woodward envisioned the new Detroit as an urban Arcadia of interlocking hexagons. Each wheel was to be separate yet unite, in accordance with the young nation's federalism, as well as classically symmetrical, in accordance whith Jeffersonian aesthetics. This dream never quite came to be.
Planning is for the world's great cities, for Paris, london and Rome, for cities dedicated, at some level, to culture. Detroit, on the other hand was an American city and therefore dedicated to money, and so design had given way to expediency. Since 1818, the city had spread out along the river, warehouse by warehouse, factory by factory. Judge Woodward's wheels had been squased, bisected, pressed in tho the usual rectangles."

I think there is a cultural shift happening and this discussion is happening everywhere. Even if it's happening inside peoples heads.

I also think that it's important to remember that this isn't only about fashion. It's culture, aesthetics and desing of all aspects of our lives.

There's more I want to say, but will have to gather my thoughts....ADD and to much caffiene.

 

[Johnny]

and softgrey, please stop your LA bashing bullsh*t, there is no need for it and you don't even know so don't even talk.

That's a bit strong spacemiu no? As I see it, softgrey was putting a point of view accross. It's not bullsh*t - or at least it's not necessarily bullsh*t; I think you'd need to demonstrate why it's bullsh*t. This thread's about an exchange of ideas and thoughts. I think that almost anyone is entitled to take a view on Holywood - it's exactly a backwater that no one has any insight into other than those who live there. It may be that you have a greater insight, but if so you should share it. Just saying it's bullsh*t makes you sound too defensive - like a raw nerve has been hit?

For what it's worth, I agree with softgrey. There are good films to come from Holywood (although the so called "independents" are a bit overated and formulaic to my mind). On the plus side, I'm thinking of some of the great films of the 70s, David Lynch, Charlie Kaufman etc etc. But my view is that overwhelmingly LA is extremely superficial, where surfaces are the most important thing and novel, interesting ideas are very rare indeed (even rarer to have those ideas accepted and allowed to develop). I live in a cultural wasteland, and wouldn't argue otherwise, although I'd admit to a visceral defensive reaction if others (outsiders) were to say it, so I understand your reaction to softgrey's comments.

But tell us why it's bullsh*t.

J.

 

[travolta]

I think you can be just as stylish thrifting as you can buying designer clothes. I think it automatically creates greater creativity in that you have to imagine the garments potential in a sea of scratchy polyester blends. Also if you know basic sewing skills you can alter anything and save a lot of money for a distinctive print and fabric. I think if you don't have much..you have to use your imagination and make things work.

 

[softgrey]

chris...very good points you bring up...this topic is definitely about more than just fashion...that stuff about detroit was fascinating to me...i know a lot of frustrated architects in the states who look longing overseas at the great projects being built which would never be green-lighted in the US...i have a ridiculous number of buildings going up around me...as my area is undergoing some serious development...and they are mostly just big giant boxes...there is little or no aesthetic merit to any of them...we're in a major american city...which is supposed to be a cultural mecca...and yet...even here...some of the stuff is just BAD...because it's not about how it looks so much as how much will it cost and how long will it take...?

you wouldn't believe how fast these things are going up...and they're BIG....and not very nice... imo...but they are going to add major value to the neighborhood from an economic standpoint...luckily...the area i actually am in ...is an historical landmark district...which means they can't mess with it...so at least there's that...

 

[faust]

chris...very good points you bring up...this topic is definitely about more than just fashion...that stuff about detroit was fascinating to me...i know a lot of frustrated architects in the states who look longing overseas at the great projects being built which would never be green-lighted in the US...i have a ridiculous number of buildings going up around me...as my area is undergoing some serious development...and they are mostly just big giant boxes...there is little or no aesthetic merit to any of them...we're in a major american city...which is supposed to be a cultural mecca...and yet...even here...some of the stuff is just BAD...because it's not about how it looks so much as how much will it cost and how long will it take...?

you wouldn't believe how fast these things are going up...and they're BIG....and not very nice... imo...but they are going to add major value to the neighborhood from an economic standpoint...luckily...the area i actually am in ...is an historical landmark district...which means they can't mess with it...so at least there's that...

Word! Did you see those ghastly things on W.Houston? Argh... Sorry, OT... but not really, since it ties in with my post above....

 

[travolta]

what works for me..is i just try remove myself from how the article/ accessory is supposed to be worn and start playing around with it. You can achieve entirely new porportions and looks by turning things inside out, wearing things backwards (audry hepburn pulled this off), layering, doubling (belts) etc and still looking chic. Sometimes it iasn't as practical in that it isn't "perfectly" fitted, but part fashion is about experimentation/ mutation and unexpected quirks. For instance, my brothers little league baseball belt when worn backwards channels the prada belts five years ago...or a cumberbund strapped across a flat chest looks good over and under clothes. I was not educated in fit material of high quality clothing, but because i could never afford it I was forced to be more experimental...which is a great education! as long as you have/ develop an eye for composition/ porportion and color..also fit and material you can work with almost anything.

 

[softgrey]

Word! Did you see those ghastly things on W.Houston? Argh... Sorry, OT... but not really, since it ties in with my post above....

see them...?
honey...i can practically touch from here...
the ground literally vibrate every day as they work...it's crazy...

back on topic...did anyone have a look at the book hanne recommended...it looks intense...

 

[purechris]

strawbutterb is another perfect example of using a little creativity and breaking away from the norm. I do think it is something that you are born with and also something that can be developed or taught. I don't have much money to spend on designer clothing, but I appreciate it. That's why I learned to sew in the first place, the other reason was because I couldn't find what I wanted in stores.
Having been fortunate to spend the formative years of my life in Germany (albeit on an Air Force base), I think that I was exposed to a certain cultural aesthetic and way of life. My parents were curious enough to explore the country and it's traditions. Mind you, my father is from RURAL Alabama. I was given a great gift of being talented with the visual arts, but having been exposed to it more and supported by my parents it helped me develop a greater appreciation of that aspect of life. The problem is that many people aren't being exposed to these things, which I find rather sad since the world is at our fingertips now with modern conveniences such as the internet.

Soft-these new buildings that are shooting up are just ridiculous. They've put 2 in near my house in the historic downtown district. They are tearing down the projects behind my to build more of them. They just turned a block of downtown into an entertainment district complete with Hard Rock Cafe, Lucky Strike bowling, TGIFridays and a few other regional chain restaraunt entertainment spots. Sadly, the place is ROCKING 5 nites a week. The local businesses are feeling the hit the hardest, yet people are flocking to be where everybody else is....the norm!

 

[softgrey]

The problem is that many people aren't being exposed to these things, which I find rather sad since the world is at our fingertips now with modern conveniences such as the internet.

that's a very good point...we are ALL exposed to much more these days due to the proliferation of the media and the internet...it's all a matter of what you choose to focus on and whether you open yourself up to new things...

tfs is a great example of that...look at all the information being shared here...i learn something everyday from our members...

 

[kit]

I cannot resist the temptation to contribute my twopennyworth to this cerebral discussion of what , to many , is an extremely superficial aspect of ' life ' .


In popular culture ' the dictats of fashion ' codify the multifarious aspects of the utter crassness of consumer capitalism - ' the cult of fashionality ' with all its trivial fads , whims and capricious materialism .

In my book , truly personal style depends upon an appreciation of the aesthetic aspects of apparel , combined with an intuitive and instinctive self-awareness of what is appropriate and works on one's own body .

Like the true artist , one develops one's own peculiar style of dress through observation , imitation and even plagiarism , to hopefully arrive at what is both personal , appropriate and , as far as possible , essentially original .

Popular fashion culture is evinced in its most direct form by ' the label wh*re ' or ' the charva ' - those who , without ANY sense of selection , exhibit a blind and slavish adherence to the blandishments of the glossy advertising campaigns , created for our delectation , by the likes of Vuitton , Gucci , Dior , YSL , et al .

This trashy and vulgar display , on the body , of the present day ' must have ' symbols of wealth - those fetishised objects of desire - is just another example of ' status anxiety ' and presents a total lack of any authentic aesthetic sense . It is the absolute antithesis of ' chic ' , which I take to be singularity and appropriateness of dress that is , on one hand of the minute , and on the other , for all time .
( I have a feeling that it's in the makeup of Frenchwomen's genes ) .

Could the absolute cynicism on the part of ' thinking ' fashionistes ' that comes through so clearly in the Helmut Lang , Jil Sander , and even the Tom Ford threads , be at the root of parlous state of the fashion industry , so convincingly expounded by Soft .

Only time will tell !!!

 

[luxmode]

This trashy and vulgar display , on the body , of the present day ' must have ' symbols of wealth - those fetishised objects of desire - is just another example of ' status anxiety ' and presents a total lack of any authentic aesthetic sense

Have you read Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton? I've been meaning to check it out...

 

[kit]

Have you read Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton? I've been meaning to check it out...

READ IT !!!

It tells it like it is .B)

KIT

 

[kimair]

strawbutterb is another perfect example of using a little creativity and breaking away from the norm. I do think it is something that you are born with and also something that can be developed or taught.

The problem is that many people aren't being exposed to these things, which I find rather sad since the world is at our fingertips now with modern conveniences such as the internet.

These are two very interesting points...

My grandmother grew up in north carolina, one of 10 children. the entire family went to church every sunday, dressed to the nines in clothing that was mostly second-hand or made by my great-grandmother. but she's always spend money on hats, shoes, and bags for the girls. when my grandmother got older, she always followed the same edict. she'd wear a suit she got from goodwill to church and fixed up with new buttons or trimming, and wear it with freshly polished black pumps and a nice leather purse. she passed on her "style" to her 9 children, one of which was my mother. but my mom was always more concerned with other things and thought fashion was friviolous. from the time i was seven, i would go to nyc and stay 2 weeks every summer with my aunt, who was a model/actress (occasionally). she read vogue and bazaar and followed my grandmother's style rules. i picked up my love of fashion from her, not my mom. if you aren't around people/situations that encourage creativity, exploration, etc., it doesn't mean you won't be that way yourself, but it just means you have that desire inside. does that make sense?

on the second point, you'd think with the proliferation of the internet and our information-hungry society more people would be "culturally aware." but i have found some people are afraid of having such knowledge at their fingertips and rebel against it. my parents have had a computer for six years, and i don't think my mom has ever checked her email. i'll tell her about something interesting i read online, and send her the link, but she won't go and check it out. she'd rather have me summarize it for her, or print it out and send it. her attitude is "i got along this long without it, so why start now?"

 

[kimair]

another good book is The Substance of Style: How the Rise of Aesthetic Value is Remaking Commerce, Culture, and Consciousness by Virginia Postrel. I saw her speak at the SFMoMA in a roundtable around their recent Glamour exhibition:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...90/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-1444910-1803864

 

[purechris]

kimair--I'm reading that book. I hadn't brought it up yet because I'm not far enough into it to share thoughts from it. I've had it for a few months....

"if you aren't around people/situations that encourage creativity, exploration, etc., it doesn't mean you won't be that way yourself, but it just means you have that desire inside. does that make sense?"

It makes perfect sense. Some people have that desire and interest inside, while others find it once they are introduced to it. Unfortunately many people are "scared" to explore finer culture because our society has made it seem so elitist.

 

[Spacemiu]

what don't i know space?...how do YOU know what I know?...
and please do not speak to me that way...it is very rude...

your adittued is very rude and ignorant. You know very well many people here are form LA yet you still say things like hollywood is a cultural waste land, wich is compleately untrue.

 

[Johnny]

nice to see you writing here again Kit.

 

[strawberry daiquiri]

nice to see you writing here again Kit.

Indeed it is.