Fashion and Feminism

[Melisande]

This video is very important and answers many of our questions regarding the objectification of women in media.



The way I see it is this: I personally strongly believe also that what a grown, free woman knowingly does with her body and image is her choice. In an ideal world. However, realistically and very unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world. We live in a world where the vast majority of men (and women) expect women and girls to be subordinate objects. This is the root cause of violence against women. That's why we have to be very careful and responsible about how, when, where, and in what context to perpetrate images of women (including ourselves) being objectified. The world is totally not yet ready for complete freedom of expression, in the name of art, freedom, irony, or whatever. One day, I hope it will be. But until then our priorities must be protecting our children and educating ourselves and the world, or we are part of the problem. I want feminism to be a responsible and mature cause, not an excuse to do whatever the hell we want because guys-have-been-doing-it-so-why-can't-we.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I agree that it's not quite simple.

It may be that not everyone is capable of making evolved choices. My belief is that I have to be ready to allow others to make their own choices, while being quite cautious about judging those choices. However, I think there's no denying that some choices are more evolved than others.

 

[Melisande]

^ I agree that it's not quite simple.

It may be that not everyone is capable of making evolved choices. My belief is that I have to be ready to allow others to make their own choices, while being quite cautious about judging those choices. However, I think there's no denying that some choices are more evolved than others.

Yes, it is very complex, and very difficult/risky to judge. We more often than not have no way of getting into the motivations of the persons involved in creating a given image, often their greater body of work and what they stand for. But I agree with Caroline Heldman in that when I was growing up in the 80's we read John Berger's Ways of Seeing and talked about the portrayal of women in the media and we got what it was all about. Now I see young girls having far, far less authority over their own bodies without even realizing it, and wonder what is going on. There's the phenomenon of all the pink and sexualized little girls' toys as well. Not sure things are going in a good direction, and wonder what can be done about it.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ If you look at the history of Barbie, she was created very deliberately and purposefully ... it could be done again.

 

[violet_echoes*~]

Fashion is fantasy.

Not reality. And that's the beauty of it. That's what gives us that magical feeling when we pour over the pages of Vogue, when we see the most beautiful vision dreamed up by designers and hairdressers and makeup artists, when we watch shows.

We make the choices for how we wish to dress and represent ourselves, and we as buyers have the ultimate power. Fashion just provides us with endless options for how we wish to dress and portray ourselves.

We would not look to movies, and see "they are glamourizing corpses!" ~ the corpse would be there as part of the story, part of that "world" the artist is involving in his / her story. The same is true for fashion.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ Eventually we all have to get dressed, though, and participate in reality fully clothed, and fashion determines what we wear. There are choices, but there are limits to those choices. (Yes, one could opt out of ready to wear, but I don't consider that a practical choice for me or probably most people.)

 

[aaron95]

Well In my opinion fashion is just an indutry that makes what the buyer wants, sites as WGSN stylesight or WWD work hard to make a study of what people needs and then the designers (famous and not famous, and retail brands)do that according to thwat people asks for, so then they are gonna buy it, so in fact the main fashion influencer is the buyer.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I certainly haven't noticed that being the case ...

Every season magazines have to have articles about how to wear various bizarre new shapes and styles. Not sure how this syncs up with your theory ...

 

[jennifer~]

People place fashion above criticism far too often by saying it's a fantasy, but it's actually an industry selling a fantasy. I don't think it's unfair to ask where those fantasies come from or what they promote.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I agree. Particularly considering that we're being asked to buy in, and almost have no choice about doing so (we have to be clothed, and most of us aren't willing to either make all our own patterns and clothes, or shop exclusively on the secondary market).

 

[YoninahAliza]

It's becoming all the more apparent that we have to become conscious consumers, we have to ask questions such as where are our clothes coming from (and at what cost) and what sort of messages are being promoted with clothing (whether it is an advert, a runway show, etc)- it's selling something more then clothes, it's selling an idea. So it seems important to question what this 'idea' is. Is it something we actually want to be exposed too or to promote in our society? I think some people are scared of questioning what sort of 'ideas' or fantasies the fashion industry is promoting because then many the beautiful illusions will get stripped away, and that frightens some people. Personally, I've always been a questioner, I want to know why things are the way they are, and so I don't think there is anything wrong in questioning the fashion industry. In fact, as consumers, it is our job to do so. If it's not promoting our values then we have the right to say 'no' and not support the company/project/etc. So when fashion is demoralizing to women, as consumers we can call out a company or a persons bull****.

It doesn't really seem like many sectors of the fashion industry are about what they buyer wants. The fashion industry really tells the consumer what they want, what they never knew they needed or wanted. Some parts are obviously catered around what the consumer wants but a lot of it is about selling you that look or item you never knew you needed but now must have. So by becoming more conscious consumers it seems like buyers become more aware of whats being sold to them and then they can speak up when they are uncomfortable by a particular situation (such as when a company over-sexualizes women in their adverts). To me, this can only be a good thing, that women are taking agency and calling out companies/people for not being particularly feminist or promoting outdated mindsets.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ It seems to me that a lot of fashion seems to come out of not particularly healthy minds, if the results are anything to judge by.

Clothes that are restrictive seem to be designed by people (generally men) with restrictive ideas about women.

I've noticed that when I react negatively to the clothes (not just I don't care for it, but it looks deliberately uncomfortable, for example), sooner or later I react negatively to what's coming out of the designer's mouth ... and the reverse is also true. To me the designer's philosophy is important, because it will show up in the clothes. There is no separating the work/the art from the character.

 

[NataliaShopSnap]

It's becoming all the more apparent that we have to become conscious consumers, we have to ask questions such as where are our clothes coming from (and at what cost) and what sort of messages are being promoted with clothing (whether it is an advert, a runway show, etc)- it's selling something more then clothes, it's selling an idea. So it seems important to question what this 'idea' is. Is it something we actually want to be exposed too or to promote in our society? I think some people are scared of questioning what sort of 'ideas' or fantasies the fashion industry is promoting because then many the beautiful illusions will get stripped away, and that frightens some people. Personally, I've always been a questioner, I want to know why things are the way they are, and so I don't think there is anything wrong in questioning the fashion industry. In fact, as consumers, it is our job to do so. If it's not promoting our values then we have the right to say 'no' and not support the company/project/etc. So when fashion is demoralizing to women, as consumers we can call out a company or a persons bull****.

It doesn't really seem like many sectors of the fashion industry are about what they buyer wants. The fashion industry really tells the consumer what they want, what they never knew they needed or wanted. Some parts are obviously catered around what the consumer wants but a lot of it is about selling you that look or item you never knew you needed but now must have. So by becoming more conscious consumers it seems like buyers become more aware of whats being sold to them and then they can speak up when they are uncomfortable by a particular situation (such as when a company over-sexualizes women in their adverts). To me, this can only be a good thing, that women are taking agency and calling out companies/people for not being particularly feminist or promoting outdated mindsets.

OMG @YoninahAliza I followed your tumblr immediately !!! When I was little my mother used to make my dresses. I want to find a tailor who will make my clothes to my own liking. It really isn't that hard. And the result would be a much better fitted look. I work in tech and all the fashion/tech startups are being created by frumpy straight men. It's plain weird. Where the ladies at? I'm not sure. We need to take control of what we want, what we buy and what we wear. It's not that hard. Just joined this forum but surprised at how many people still buy fashion magazines. That's still a thing? Guess I'm in my own world.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ If it's not that hard, why aren't you already doing it?

Getting your hands on really good fabric is a challenge in my experience. I would need access to professional channels I think.

I subscribe to magazines in all my areas of interest, including fashion.

 

[YoninahAliza]

^ It seems to me that a lot of fashion seems to come out of not particularly healthy minds, if the results are anything to judge by.

Clothes that are restrictive seem to be designed by people (generally men) with restrictive ideas about women.

I've noticed that when I react negatively to the clothes (not just I don't care for it, but it looks deliberately uncomfortable, for example), sooner or later I react negatively to what's coming out of the designer's mouth ... and the reverse is also true. To me the designer's philosophy is important, because it will show up in the clothes. There is no separating the work/the art from the character.

Oh yes... I think what you said in your last paragraph is incredibly true. In most situations it is hard for me to fully separate a designers work with what they say, to me they are a reflection of one another. If the work bothers me then chances are what the designer says will also be problematic. And that's not something that I particularly want to support or endorse either.

 

[picnmix]

I think fashion and feminism is a really interesting concept and the balance is something I too struggle with.

I think that personal style and self-expression via clothes is completely compatible with feminism, but where I start to feel a little confused is around trends and more the 'business of fashion'.

I don't have an answer but I've enjoyed reading through this thread!

 

[Not Plain Jane]

Interesting article on Rhianna's see-through dress; I thought it best fit here but will put it on her thread, too:

The real reason we should be troubled by Rihanna's see-through dress
It sends a backwards message
PUBLISHED JUNE 11, 2014, AT 6:07 AM

Cheeky for the wrong reasons. Photo: (D Dipasupil/Getty Images)
The discussion of what women should and shouldn't wear is as classic as a black Chanel bag, something you can count on returning season after season after season.

No surprise then that this perennial favorite has once again made headlines. In a three-day span last week, one high school sent students home for exposed bra straps, another admitted to editing yearbook pictures for modesty, and the University of Texas School of Nursing attempted to ban "low cut shirts that reveal cleavage." And then came along the very va-va-voom counterpoint to them all: Rihanna strutting the red carpet in a see-through dress.

Two issues, same side of the coin. Rihanna was criticized for selling her sexuality — before defenders lauded her for owning it. In the dress code debate, skimpy clothes were said to be an arousing distraction for boys — before defenders said teenage girls shouldn't be ashamed of their bodies.

Ultimately, though, these arguments are beside the point. There isn't much of a connection between clothing choices and sex, and a number of credible studies actually show that sex among teenagers is on the decline. Yet, these debates do have the effect of drowning out the conversation we should be having about revealing dress: their effect on the body-image of teenage girls.

While the pressure to dress in revealing clothing may not change what girls do with their bodies, it does have an effect on how they feel about them. The fact is, dress codes are sexist, but so is the culture pushing women to show more and more skin. (Don't believe me about the latter? Take a look at movie ads featuring stars like Jennifer Aniston, Katherine Heigl, or Cameron Diaz and you will see, again and again, that the ladies are in far less clothes than the men.)

Women, especially young ones, don't much like the way they look. Over half of young girls recently surveyed were unhappy with their appearance. More than 80 percent of 10-year-old girls fear being fat, and by middle school, around half of all girls are dissatisfied with two or more parts of their body. Female kids are not alright.

I hate the term modesty. It implies decency, restraint, and following rules. More importantly, it is not about women, but the men around them. When we tell women to dress modestly, we are sending a backwards message about the power their bodies have to project and to act as their proxy in the world.

And here's my issue with Rihanna's see-through gown: It does the same thing. Relying on the same logic as modesty, Rihanna's statement piece says a woman's most powerful medium is her body. Neither the concealed body nor the "I'm naked, and deal with it" approach do much to convince young women that their self-worth extends beyond the roundness of their breasts or the tautness of their abs.

I'm not saying that showing off any one body part or wearing any particular item should be off limits or that young women shouldn't explore their budding sexuality through their appearance. This isn't about rules or checklists, but rather a reminder that young women's ability to wear whatever they want does not actually mean that they are really dressing the way they want. The culture they are surrounded by is working hard and fast against them, and the choice between skimpy and modest is no choice at all.

source: the week.com

 

[eizhowa]

Reading that article gave me a headache. I am still struggeling to make sense of the conclusion. Anyone want to step in and give me the feminism for Dummies version of the article?

Is the conclusion basically that we are "historically challenged"? That wouldn't be news to me...:/

 

[YoninahAliza]

That's an interesting article NPJ, food for thought for sure! The last paragraph is an important one, it raises some interesting ideas. If women dislike the way they look, then maybe it isn't really about how they look, but rather with the ideas of beauty they are presented with that is the issue? So if we only see only body type in the media, it is harmful but if women choose to dress the way they want (whether it is more 'modest' or 'skimpy') along with being whatever body type they feel comfortable as, that would be a much better image for young women to see. The idea that you can dress however you want and be whatever shape you want is a positive message that should be sent out to people. And as for Rihanna's see-through-outfit, I personally found it to be very beautiful. It seems like she's comfortable with the skin she's in and that's pretty awesome. The author may have a point though that Rihanna's dress may be sending the message that "a woman's most powerful medium is her body." Maybe it depends on who is looking at the image though; how you already feel about your self-worth/image when you look at it may impact how you view the outfit. Or I wonder how the look would have been received if it was someone else famous, say someone who was a bit larger in size, would it have had the same reaction? I'm still thinking about these things, perhaps I'll get back to this thread when I have more of an idea. But what do ya'll think about it?

 

[Not Plain Jane]

Reading that article gave me a headache. I am still struggeling to make sense of the conclusion. Anyone want to step in and give me the feminism for Dummies version of the article?

Is the conclusion basically that we are "historically challenged"? That wouldn't be news to me...:/

I think (?) the point of the article is that the female body is a contentious issue. And that by hiding it, via modesty, or showing it off, via dresses that showcase the body almost over-and-above the person, women send the message that their most powerful medium in meeting the world is their flesh. Whether it's about baring it or hiding it the suggestion is that flesh defines us.

Thus, we'd be better off finding a better way to express our power?? I think that's what the writer is suggesting.

After all, beauty fades.

And then what?