Fashion and Feminism

[YoninahAliza]

^Good point, the focus on beauty can be quite problematic. I still think that it's a topic that should be discussed and that people should feel that they are beautiful no matter what but you are right that "finding a better way to express our power" is important too. If women are led to believe that their power can only be found in their beauty, then it is a sad thing indeed. If you look at the women who top lists like "the worlds most powerful women" they aren't relying on their looks to get them where they want to be, they evoke a number of other qualities such as intelligence, wit, and compassion to make an impact on the world. It's why having women visible in all different fields (from film to politics, etc) is so, so important. So that we can see our power doesn't have come from our looks, you know? In relation to fashion, it can be a very powerful medium and a place for women to make a mark. Fashion is a bit like a double edged sword though, isn't it?

 

[Not Plain Jane]

^ I think it can be a double-edged sword for sure.

However, it doesn't have to be. Because well-designed clothing can exude other aesthetic qualities besides beauty. It can suggest elegance, grace, strength, comfort, fun, etc, etc.

The other key thing is that the person wears the clothing, not allowing it to overtake him/her, either via modesty OR via objectification. It can be a bit of a tightrope, all this.

 

[eizhowa]

Thank you for the explanation, NotPlainJane!

 

[YoninahAliza]

I hope when women wear Céline they feel confident and strong. I guess there is a bit of a political statement behind Céline, which is that we should be teaching young girls to feel good … I am not a big fan of women being sexualised through clothes, as you can probably tell from my work. I have no problem with a woman wearing anything as long as she has chosen to wear it for herself. But I do think there are too many images of women that are sexualised and too many examples of women dressing for other people and disempowering themselves in the process.
-Phoebe Philo in talk with Alexandra Shulman

I saw this quote earlier today, it's from a talk at Vogue Festival, and thought it was a fitting quote for this thread. I really appreciated this statement by Philo and clearly her work exemplifies it too. It seems that since Céline under Philo wasn't exploitive and that was part of its charm and power. Céline is a good example of a brand that isn't particularly sexualized yet women feel incredible in the clothes. Sort of shows that these sort of fashions can be done and look amazing too. It always seemed to me to be a brand that was quite feminist and I guess this statement from Philo just makes it seem even more so.

 

[Not Plain Jane]

Great quote Yolita.

I wonder if, broadly speaking, female designers understand women on a deeper level and are able to therefore design accordingly?

Not sure - but just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ For sure it makes a difference to be a woman, I have no doubt of that ... but being a bit conscious is important too. Some male designers are really positive too, and great observers and fans of women (like the one I've quoted). The ones I'm not too crazy about are the ones with a preconceived idea of how a woman should look and dress who create that mold that literally no one else can fit into. (But I can think of at least one female designer like that too.)

 

[Not Plain Jane]

^ True fashionista-ta. I am sure it's not exclusive to one gender or another. But being women there has to be some kind of keener understanding of female bodies/comfort/desires, etc.

-----------------------------------------------

On another topic, but again a charged an interesting one, and perhaps one that's tangentially related to the points discussed in relation to Rhianna's CFDA dress, there's been quite a bit of discussion of implementing dress codes in public schools recently. Today I read something from the New York Times. Here's a quote:

More than that, taking on the right to bare arms (and legs, and cleavage and midriffs) as a feminist rallying cry seems suspiciously Orwellian. Fashions catering to girls emphasize body consciousness at the youngest ages — Gap offers “skinny jeans” for toddlers, Target hawks bikinis for infants. Good luck finding anything but those itty-bitty shorts for your 12-year-old. So even as I object to the policing of girls’ sexuality, I’m concerned about the incessant drumbeat of self-objectification: the pressure young women face to view their bodies as the objects of others’ desires.

That last bit really signifies a conundrum for women, dress, and feminism.

Here's the link to the entire article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/opinion/the-battle-over-dress-codes.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=OP_TBO_20140616&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=3

 

[ssgghh]

That article makes a good point. I think the author is right when they say that insisting on modest dressing and promoting the imperative of sexy dressing are both sides of the same coin, that coin being objectification and sexualisation of women.

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ Thank you, you said it much better than the article did. That makes sense to me!

 

[eizhowa]

I didn't know where to post this, but seeing as make up and womens apperance in general are a part of fashion, I thought I would post it here.

Last week, I stopped wearing mascara. Today, my employer (apparently shocked by my apperance) told me that I needed to wear make-up to work. This I do not get. Why is it that women need to wear make up to look presentable while men can just show up bare faced to work? There are men doing the same work that I am doing. Why do women need to spend extra time in front of the mirror in the morning just to "catch up" with men? Are we that replusive as a sex? I feel sad that I am born so inferior to men, who are good enough - just as they are.

Until I stopped wearing mascara, I never noticed that there is no other choice. Obviously, if I don't wear mascara, I am not fit to sell coffee. No matter how capable, polite and charming I am.

Back in the "old days" women were not presentable unless they wore a skirt/dress. Today we need mascara, apparently

Thoughts?

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ I would explain that you've developed an allergy to mascara.

I did have a manager once wanting to send me home when I forgot my lipstick ... there was foundation on my lips and he was convinced I was very ill

 

[eizhowa]

You are actually not the first one today to suggest that I devellop an allergy However, I would like the choice to wear mascara sometimes if I feel like it...

 

[fashionista-ta]

^ Oh, you can, just not to work Maybe you could test new hypoallergenic mascaras on particular days ...

 

[tigerrouge]

I believe, in such a situation, I would develop "sensitive eyes" that occasionally can tolerate mascara, but not always. Any considerate employer would do well not push the issue, on the basis of health. It's probably an uphill battle to convince them about the social implications, so just find a method of explanation that simply works for you.

I would have thought that in a retail environment involving food and beverages, that the less make-up any person wears, the better, simply in terms of hygiene. Just to minimise the risk of false nails ending up in the salad, or coated eyelashes falling onto the latte, or something of a similar nature.

 

[eizhowa]

^True, but without makeup women apaprently look ill and unkept, and who wants a sick, obviously sloppy person serving their food?

I do realize that the argument that the entire world is wrong when it comes to the expectations of women won't convince my employer. I'd better invest in some red eyeliner

 

[MyNameIs]

I didn't know where to post this, but seeing as make up and womens apperance in general are a part of fashion, I thought I would post it here.

Last week, I stopped wearing mascara. Today, my employer (apparently shocked by my apperance) told me that I needed to wear make-up to work. This I do not get. Why is it that women need to wear make up to look presentable while men can just show up bare faced to work? There are men doing the same work that I am doing. Why do women need to spend extra time in front of the mirror in the morning just to "catch up" with men? Are we that replusive as a sex? I feel sad that I am born so inferior to men, who are good enough - just as they are.

Until I stopped wearing mascara, I never noticed that there is no other choice. Obviously, if I don't wear mascara, I am not fit to sell coffee. No matter how capable, polite and charming I am.

Back in the "old days" women were not presentable unless they wore a skirt/dress. Today we need mascara, apparently

Thoughts?

Men have different expectations/requirements though. Like you said, you'd like to have the option to wear mascara, which you feel you don't. Most men in professional setting don't have that option either. If they wear mascara, they'll probably be told to wash it off.

Additionally, there are other things that women are allowed to wear in a work place but men aren't: open toed shoes, short sleeves, long hair, jewelry, and more options when it comes to your dress code.

 

[eizhowa]

^I was actually going to ssay something about that in my first post, but I felt it dilluted my main focus. Why is it somehow "cool" when women wear mens clothing, but "ridiculous" when men wear womens clothing? I do know that some designers use female influences in their mens collections, but I am talking more about the mainstream. Why can't men wear ballet flats, for example? Both men and women can do ballet, but only women can wear footwear inspired by the art. Also, you don't typically see men wearing sweaters design to show off collar bones, but men can have just as beautiful collar bones as women. I can't quite figure out the underlying reasons for all the differences, but a lot of my theories do not support the idea that women and men are seen as equals...

However, I take more offence when my emplyer comments on the apperance of my natural, bare face, than I would if she commented on my uniform. My emplyer pays for my uniform and I accept that she gets to decide how it should look (within reason of course).

 

[bun-bun]

I can't believe no one is mentioning the time and cost associated with forcing female employees to wear make up. This has been the charge in several lawsuits involving female employees who were REQUIRED to wear make up to work with the implication being that sometimes women don't have the money to buy said cosmetics or the time required to groom themselves into whatever ideal of beauty their employers require.

 

[eizhowa]

Time and cost is definitly a factor. That is why I accept that I have to spend time and money on making my hair presentable. I choose to have long hair, and I have to live with that decision. I think the time-cost argument has been considered weak by the court, though, compared to the suffering of an employer who will need to put up with barefaced women in her workforce.

There are several different reasons why some women would prefer not to wear make up. I would like to stop wearing mascara for wearing mascara for 10-11 hours at the time is uncomfortable for me. I like to rub my eyes, and I want to be able to laugh until I cry without looking like a panda.

What really bothers me is the fact that I need to wear something that visibly shows everyone else that I took the time to make myself up. No one can see the 100s of pounds I spend a year to make my skin look good without makeup, but everyone can see I am not wearing mascara. I don't understand why women need to look like they have made an effort, youth & beauty aside.

 

[Caramel]

I didn't know where to post this, but seeing as make up and womens apperance in general are a part of fashion, I thought I would post it here.

Last week, I stopped wearing mascara. Today, my employer (apparently shocked by my apperance) told me that I needed to wear make-up to work. This I do not get. Why is it that women need to wear make up to look presentable while men can just show up bare faced to work? There are men doing the same work that I am doing. Why do women need to spend extra time in front of the mirror in the morning just to "catch up" with men? Are we that replusive as a sex? I feel sad that I am born so inferior to men, who are good enough - just as they are.

Until I stopped wearing mascara, I never noticed that there is no other choice. Obviously, if I don't wear mascara, I am not fit to sell coffee. No matter how capable, polite and charming I am.

Back in the "old days" women were not presentable unless they wore a skirt/dress. Today we need mascara, apparently

Thoughts?

I find this really shocking to be honest. I mean, it's one thing to require employees to be neat and clean and presentable, but to tell someone that they have to spend their time and money on makeup to look a certain way... I wear mascara every day, but if my employer said this to me I would refuse to wear it on principle. Either that, or require a pay raise to cover the extra time and cost.