Fashion and Feminism

[fashionista-ta]

Since the beginning of my career, some of the women I've worked with have worn no makeup to work. Studies show that wearing makeup puts you at an advantage in the workplace, but the women I've thinking of have done very well.


I wear makeup--a fair number of different products--but I have cut back over the years. No more eyeliner, and just one shade of eyeshadow Some days I wear no concealer on the grounds that there's no one there to impress

 

[Not Plain Jane]

I find this really shocking to be honest. I mean, it's one thing to require employees to be neat and clean and presentable, but to tell someone that they have to spend their time and money on makeup to look a certain way... I wear mascara every day, but if my employer said this to me I would refuse to wear it on principle. Either that, or require a pay raise to cover the extra time and cost.

me too! i've worked in retail, the fashion industry, and academia, and never once has anyone ever said something to me about wearing/not wearing makeup. i always assumed it was a personal choice.

because it is!!

sorry to hear of your difficulties eizhowa. please let us know how you ultimately work out this situation; i am curious. and empathetic.

 

[Benn98]

Its very interesting, all these takes. It actually highlights something which I'm vaguely unaware of. We have a young little receptionist, and I cannot imagine she earns a stupendous salary. But she always looks poised, full make up, appropriately dressed, etc. This is a requirement from management as she's regarded as a 'spokesperson' for the company. So I'm assuming a huge deal of her salary goes towards all that clothes and beauty. In this context I can sort of back the company's decision to enforce these rules. Some of the other women in the office, writers, graphic designers etc, go without and nobody notice or comment on their looks. Probably if you're in a service industry, its an entirely different ballgame.

 

[Benn98]

^I was actually going to ssay something about that in my first post, but I felt it dilluted my main focus. Why is it somehow "cool" when women wear mens clothing, but "ridiculous" when men wear womens clothing? I do know that some designers use female influences in their mens collections, but I am talking more about the mainstream. Why can't men wear ballet flats, for example? Both men and women can do ballet, but only women can wear footwear inspired by the art. Also, you don't typically see men wearing sweaters design to show off collar bones, but men can have just as beautiful collar bones as women. I can't quite figure out the underlying reasons for all the differences, but a lot of my theories do not support the idea that women and men are seen as equals...

It's a very good question you're asking here. To mimic what you're saying, it does highlight the disparity between men and women. Youre right about those sweaters!! I see them on some, but not many guys. Dunno why our collarbones are regarded as sacred. For men the rules are extremely black & white at times. You must have toned arms to wear short sleeved shirts. You must be younger than 30, and have toned, muscular legs for shorts. Also have 'good-looking' feet to wear open shoes. Only cyclists and swimmers are allowed hairless legs, otherwise your masculinity gets questioned. Break any of these rules and you'll end up a bundle of laughs. Don't get me started on society's issue with male thighs. I know this because I'm a short-shorts & huaraches enthusiast, I always get a lot of stares and odd comments. I'm actually so traditionally hard-wired that I do Callanetics and run a lot in order to get toned thighs & calves, which in my warped opinion would warrant my reason for wearing short shorts. Its messed up, I know. For a woman, none of these constructs would apply. Anyway, all this should go into a different thread, but I'm just saying.

 

[Melisande]

Eizhowa I am so sorry you had to go through such injustice, and I feel your indignance.

I also had the experience of my teacher (an old-fashioned lady in her 80's) screech at me "Go STRAIGHT to the bathroom and put on your lipstick!!! How DARE you come to class without makeup!!" here in Paris. I was completely flabbergasted, because the majority of French women don't wear much visible makeup, and because it was so completely out of the blue. Then she turned to the class and said "Ladies, it is your duty to come to class made-up."

I feel like the no-makeup look is just as much a proper "look" as the made up look, so I did not feel like I was being underdressed in ANY way. She acted like I'd shown up in PJ's. Give me a break.

 

[softgrey]

re- the question as to why people don't always approve of men wearing clothing designed specifically for women...
this image seems to explain it pretty well...
we may be equal- but we are not the same and not everything looks good on everyone...
it's called aesthetics...

but this is definitely the wrong thread for it...
maybe a mod can figure out a better place and move all related comments...?

wwd.com

 

[BerlinRocks]

ahahah ! is this a satire ?
*where is this coming from btw ?
it reminds of a play i saw in nyc last year. there was this guy embodying the typical NYU freshgirl. he was hilarious. handling a coffee just like this, on the phone. this was hilarious, and so nailed on.

at home, i sometimes wear an oversized vintage RL shirt that i knotted around my lower body. oh s##t, i think i'm going TMI here. but i don't wear heels. especially these kind of heels, with socks ? eeewww. he looks like one of these crazy transvestites i see on the streets, sometimes.


when i wear my sarongs i now try to man-up the whole look. well... i try. (since i can't really man-up my "attitude". ahahah. i'm sooo gay sometimes (? always)....).

 

[Benn98]

Oh dear!! That's certainly a satire. It has to be. No real man, gay or straight, would ever leave the house looking like that.If the upper part was a short sleeved collared shirt, then yes, I'd wear it.

But NO to that socks, and a huge NO to heels of any sort. I hate heels and socks even on girls. So glad Carine is moving away from that now.

A thread for this must be started, if it doesn't exist already.

 

[fashionista-ta]

eizhowa, completely understand your questions about men and equality--it's completely natural to ask those questions, I think anyone in your situation would. I guess part of the question here is, To what extent were you hired for your looks, and was there an implicit understanding that you would maintain them? I suspect that if a case like this went to court, those questions would probably be asked. I don't know if you have pale lashes, but I suspect your manager's reaction really meant, Whoa! Part of the package I hired just got taken away from me!!


There seems to be quite a clear gender bias in who's hired for certain roles that have to do with greeting the public. Usually there's an overwhelming majority of women in these roles--which unfortunately tend also not to be terribly well-paid. If these were great jobs, I'd probably feel a lot less heartburn about it. I'm always impressed when I come across a receptionist, for example, who isn't traditionally attractive. She's still a woman though ... male receptionists are about as common as hen's teeth ...

 

[Not Plain Jane]

ha ha softgrey.

some of the stuff bryanboy wears - for real - look nearly as ridiculous or worse!

fire-starter- thread-starter?

 

[YoninahAliza]

eiznowa, I was wondering if you have an HR department at your work? If so, you might want to mention this experience to them and tell them how it made you feel and how wrong it was of him to even suggest such a thing. It was not okay for the manager to tell you put on makeup, it isn't a factor in how well you perform your job.

Also, it seems to me that the discussion of men and women's fashion, and why there are particular 'norms' for each gender is totally appropriate in this thread. Feminism is not only about women but also about how gendered norms affect men as well. Men's fashion actually seems very strict to me, in how men are expected to dress, and when a guy choses to deviate from the norm they can be ridiculed. So expanding the notions what men 'can' and 'cannot' wear seems like a direction parts of our society is trying to move in. And the same goes for what women 'can' and 'cannot' wear. Change is good and that's why I think feminism is beneficial to all people's. It can allow people to live their life in a way that they truly see fit.

 

[eizhowa]

eizhowa, completely understand your questions about men and equality--it's completely natural to ask those questions, I think anyone in your situation would. I guess part of the question here is, To what extent were you hired for your looks, and was there an implicit understanding that you would maintain them? I suspect that if a case like this went to court, those questions would probably be asked. I don't know if you have pale lashes, but I suspect your manager's reaction really meant, Whoa! Part of the package I hired just got taken away from me!!


There seems to be quite a clear gender bias in who's hired for certain roles that have to do with greeting the public. Usually there's an overwhelming majority of women in these roles--which unfortunately tend also not to be terribly well-paid. If these were great jobs, I'd probably feel a lot less heartburn about it. I'm always impressed when I come across a receptionist, for example, who isn't traditionally attractive. She's still a woman though ... male receptionists are about as common as hen's teeth ...

My current employer didn't actually employ me I don't think she has seen me without make up, but my previous emplyer would have. I don't think I was wearing any make up when I was interviewed. I remember feeling slightly self conscious for only wearing a tinted lip balm... I wore a very flattering hat though


Melisande: I'd be mortified! It is definitly a generation-thing. My grand mother always ask me if I am sick if I am not wearing some make up to add some color to my lips and cheeks

YoninahAliza My department manager is very supportive of women not wearing makeup, and I don't think it will be a problem again. If it becomes a problem, I know all about my rights. I love discussing workers rights and I can do so until everyone elses ears bleed

 

[YoninahAliza]

^Ahh... okay, glad it has ended up okay! And I have to agree about the sentiment of older women and makeup. The amount of times my 92 year old grandmother has said, "why aren't you wearing makeup? Look at your sister, she looks so pretty," is astounding. The sad fact is that some of the times when she has said this has been when I've had a bit of eyeshadow and mascara on... So... At this point I don't take offense to this, she's older and grew up in a time when leaving the house without nylons and lipstick was scandalous. But when I was younger I was certainly hurt by such statements. Which is why I try not to say such things to other people, to each their own, you know? Who knows what effect one's words will have on someone else.

 

[ssgghh]

this image seems to explain it pretty well...
we may be equal- but we are not the same and not everything looks good on everyone...
it's called aesthetics...

We are not all the same that much is true. But there is a general consensus about what looks good on a woman,older woman, overweight woman,man, older man and so on I think all of that should be chalenged because aesthetics is socially conditioned to a big degree. The fact we think men in wonens clothes are ridiculous (and not the other way around)says something about how we percieve women, and that how is not good.

 

[softgrey]

hmm...
i don't know that the consensus is caused by conditioning though...
no one had to tell me that guy looks bad in that outfit...
i have eyes...
i can see it for myself...

where do you get this theory about aesthetics from?

 

[ssgghh]

hmm...
i don't know that the consensus is caused by conditioning though...
no one had to tell me that guy looks bad in that outfit...
i have eyes...
i can see it for myself...

where do you get this theory about aesthetics from?

But society is telling you that all the time in more than one way. And the way you see things is conditioned by the culture you are a part of and the times you live in. I get this theory (apart trough personal observations)from the books l read on the subject of aesthetics, sociology and feminism that I had read to get my degrees (One of them is fine art related, the other humanities and social studies related). If you are interested in the subject I can recommend some.

 

[softgrey]

yes- well- that is what i was asking...
what books are you finding these theories in...
i'm interested...


i think you'd be interested on the thread we have on culture, aesthetics and fashion...
it's a bit old and could use an update, but it's an interesting read, certainly...
http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f1...fashion-discussion-20543-15.html#post12733011

 

[Toccata]

I'm in agreement with ssgghh that the Man-Dress on the previous page
looks bad because it rejects the cultural expectation or sensus communis.
I've 'corrected' the visual dissonance with face/attire more aligned to the
standard of taste:

imgarcade / pinterest / tfs

Note: The plaid jacket is worn by a woman; dress by a man

 

[ssgghh]

yes- well- that is what i was asking...
what books are you finding these theories in...
i'm interested...


i think you'd be interested on the thread we have on culture, aesthetics and fashion...
it's a bit old and could use an update, but it's an interesting read, certainly...
http://forums.thefashionspot.com/f1...fashion-discussion-20543-15.html#post12733011

Did you read Art and Illusion by Gombrich? Its a fun and easy read and even though it's quite formalist in approach (and more about art and the psychology of seing things the way we do) the conclusion is more than once that our culture and our previous experiences are responsible for how we see and interpret what we see.
I have seen you resurrected the topic, looks like an interesting read, i will definitely have to devote some more time to it.

 

[softgrey]

great!
thanks for the recommendation...