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Discussion in 'Designers and Collections' started by dodencebt, Jan 21, 2018.
I like how I could come here anytime for a schadenfreude fix.
I think you pointed out in another discussion, either Jil Sander or Helmut Lang, that with this type of 'minimalist' design (a cringe-y word, as it feels extremely overused at this point and neither Jil Sander nor Helmut Lang considered themselves minimalists), the authenticity lies in the seemingly small parameters of design, such as the cut of the lapels, the placement of pockets or utilitarian/functional details derived from menswear that a lot of womenswear, even on the highest luxury level, often never has. The structure of a men's jacket is also a lot more rigid than that of a women's jacket where softness of drape is more emphasized.
I would consider Hedi to be in line with the same sensibility which comes more from a design thinking derived from men's tailoring than of womenswear, which is why his women's offerings are only ever good where he derives exactly from that place and doesn't bother with dressmaking. You can also tell that his women's pants and jackets are tailored around the female body with a different emphasize on the body that is more 'straight' than it is hourglass-y, which again, gives it a much different look than what Vaccarello has been doing with his Saint Laurent tailoring that is decidedly more 'feminine' in expression.
In the end I would agree that the biggest mistake in Hedi's case was to step up his game and assume that his design vision is something for the masses when in fact it was really best kept as a niche offering for those people that really want that specific look and are possibly alienated by all the 'commercial' offerings that have in the past years really watered down his vision. He would have done better to take the offer of LVMH to start a Hedi Slimane standalone brand that would not have had to sell to everybody.
Saw a few Celine by Hedi dresses today at my local TJ Maxx (in the "Runway" portion of the store). I was kind of shocked frankly. Usually the runway section is Vince, Stella McCartney, occasional Proenza, etc. But was not expecting to ever see Celine. Not sure if that's a bad sign or not.
I assume its not a good sign as it happens quite quickly. And then the fact they have chosen TJ Maxx. I remember from my old company trying to get rid of stock,including TJ Maxx, an then they refused to sell to TJ Maxx because they wanted to screw down the prices way too much.
I don't live in the US, so I am not entirely familiar with TJ Maxx. May I ask you what was the price? I see Celine dresses retail in my country for 2,000+ euros.
It was not exactly inexpensive, the dresses (which looked they were definitely post-Fall 2019) were about $1250+ USD (if I remember correctly). I saw them on a whim while exiting the store and thought "why would an item this niche be at this TJ Maxx?". The store is in an affluent area of Los Angeles but not exactly one full of fashionistas because it is the quiet suburbs. The store was full of soccer moms and retired grandmas who I don't think are looking for a pricey floral baby doll dress/know what Celine is besides the Luggage bag...but maybe I'm projecting. My point is I assume there might have been a surplus of dresses if they are appearing at a TJ Maxx in the suburbs of all places.
^ Odd! I haven't been in TJ Maxx in decades, but never saw a Runway section. Wonder why they're not using Yoox?
I find it hard to imagine that Hedi would allow any of his Celine be seen at TJMaxx, but they do use Yoox.
First season Celine was already on Yoox by the summer of 2019...
They already had public sales on their website...Which is surprising considering that first seasons rarely goes on sales that fast, considering that they have outlets stores.
^ Sounds like a lot of surplus. I have seen his Celine on Yoox but don't look too often. Maybe it's more than they can take It's nice that the former designer's work lives on for quite awhile on Yoox ...
How much meaningless confusion and ocean of negative energy was created with this appointment. He really should have focused on quality rather than on quantity. By that I mean he should have dropped designing womenswear and dug deep in menswear. It is hard to show off talent when focusing on too many things.
is Hedi still in total control? the recent influx of logo-mania, use of influencers, and streetwear aesthetics has me thinking otherwise considering he's spoken against these things.
He did it at YSL too.
He is an opportunistic designer and every good creative director knows how to respond to the market.
Céline has grown organically for 10 years. Doing such a drastic change with such an underwhelming response require some sort of adjustment in order to drive sells.
And that legend of creative directors with no control is totally false. You don’t hire a Hedi Slimane, a Nicolas Ghesquiere or even a JW Anderson without total creative control.
The only type of involvement suits can have in that setting is maybe through suggestions. But they are more subtle than what people think...
And tbh, Hedi is seen as a demi-god by the Arnault and Toledano.
When I saw that here's a new post I was hoping to read that he quit.
Personally I feel that would just be the start of a different tragedy, the reality is that there aren't many Pheobes around and I fear they would just go for another Mathew Williams.
I personally root for Hedi and am curious to hear how are the sales of Celine performing now in the last year, is the sleek marketing helping in any way?
LVMH’s latest financial report suggests that sales are picking up due to the Asian market, particularly with womenswear. I could imagine lukewarm reception from Europe and America. Asia (especially East Asia) is more receptive and can already relate to Hedi’s Celine proposition. They’re also a core Hedi market since Dior Homme. I don’t know what’s going on on the menswear side but SS21 seems to be selling okay as compared to previous seasons.
At this point I’d rather have him stay at Celine, they really can’t afford another reboot, like with Givenchy.
I've been wondering why Celine's marketing team does not seem to rely on traditional US and EU Instagram influencers, particularly since Hedi's last collections (which are full of heavily branded products) feel like a perfect match for such channels.
Are they focusing solely on the Asian market? Since the brand only seems to be in the spotlight when worn by K-pop stars.
I mean there’s a pandemic right now and the traditional markets are kinda hit hard right now.
Europe and US are mature markets and they are the ones that reacted strongly against the drastic change at Celine...
The dynamic at the start wasn’t strong and the kind of uncertainty in the direction made it harder to warm up to his work.
Focusing on Asia is clever and is also a bet on the future. When Tourism will start again, the buyers in Asia will likely continue to buy Celine in Europe and increase their sales in that region.
Tbh, Hedi’s aesthetic, as sleek and well packaged as it is is not « particular » enough in the luxury market to win over a new clientele. There aren’t a lot of showstopper pieces that has the « must have » appeal. Logo pieces will sell well all over the world but the people who are buying the RTW for example are already familiar with Hedi’s work.
Add to that the competition with YSL, they are very clever to concentrate the efforts in Asia.
Lola, I’ve been wondering about this for a while. Can his Celine survive without being buoyed by a single hit product once in a while? I’m really not familiar with YSL womenswear but for Dior Homme they made a killing with the jeans and at YSL people were buying his men’s boots. I’m looking for the Celine equivalent of that.
Hedi never had an it bag as far as I can remember and with Celine’s growth prior to reboot being so much associated with bags I wonder if steady but lukewarm RTW + accessories sales can keep them on Arnault’s good graces.