Helmut Lang/Prada drama> update*HL-art

[faust]

Was he really doing that poorly that he needed to go to prada? Surely he could have found the funding elsehwer.

He wasn't doing poorly. Maybe he wanted to grow the business. Or maybe he wanted a ton of cash.

And I agree with others' sentiments, a Jil Sander or a Helmut Lang customer is a discerning one (in general) - they will not buy something with a label without the designer behind it. Advertising is not everything, Bertelli should've known that.

 

[helena]

Its the same old prada thing, while it has its 'serious' fashion moments (or some would call them pretentions) it also wants to be a huge global economic force. But high brow fashion (rather than simply high end fashion) and huge profits tend not to mix too well, I don't think. there's a fundamental mismatch there which prada overcomes (credit to it) by allowing muiccia to play away with her (psuedo?) intellectualism while in reality its about bags & shoes & pradasport &nylon suits marketing.... The relationship with Jil sander and HL was never going to be so connected. fewer people are interested in JS's & HL's work because thats all they do & its perceived as being 'too weird' by the handbag buying masses. Intelligent fashion. they, Sander & Lang, didn't want to compromise their ideals (and anyway why would they when any dividends now go to Mr & Mrs Prada!). But as all workers can, they chose to withdraw their labour. Maybe Prada should have kept Sander & Lang closer after all.

 

[macchiom]

And I agree with others' sentiments, a Jil Sander or a Helmut Lang customer is a discerning one (in general) - they will not buy something with a label without the designer behind it. Advertising is not everything, Bertelli should've known that.

But does the average Jil or Helmut customer only buy it because the designer is behind? I mean, what if the design teams, consisting of employees from when Jil and Helmut themselves were in charge of the brands, continue to put out collections following the aesthetics of the founders? Would the customer then still be buying or would the simple fact, that the “new” designers aren’t as well-known as Jil and Helmut, be enough to put them off?

With regards to the reason for the split between the designers and the Prada Group, I’ve earlier stated in another thread, that I think it’s too easy to just lay all the blame on Bertelli. In fact I think “luxury-analyst” Armando Branchini has a very valid point about the root of this unfortunate situation when stating that "many designers, once they sell their business, become less interested in turning a profit and feel free to entirely focus on the artistic side of their work. They are more interested in what the critics or the fashion establishment say, rather than whether their clothes sell or not."

 

[softgrey]

I didn't know about any of this. I was seriously wondering what happened to Helmut Lang this season. I was looking all over. Why would he sell to Prada? Was he that bad off? I am annoyed b/c I really liked his stuff. No one knows what's going to happen now, do they?

check the links at the bottom of this topic sweetest...
it's all there...the sale...the rumours...helmut's resignation...

 

[faust]

But does the average Jil or Helmut customer only buy it because the designer is behind? I mean, what if the design teams, consisting of employees from when Jil and Helmut themselves were in charge of the brands, continue to put out collections following the aesthetics of the founders? Would the customer then still be buying or would the simple fact, that the “new” designers aren’t as well-known as Jil and Helmut, be enough to put them off?

I may have written my post misleadingly. The exact reason why I called the Jil/Helmut customer "discerning" is because when they buy a piece from these designers, they are buying a creation from a designer that pioneered a certain aesthetic, and they are loyal to him - it's a more personal feeling than just buying an item. The designs done by design teams may be just as good, but there will always be Bertelli behind them, and that customer won't buy an item just because the label reads "Helmut Lang". That's what I gathered from conversations with some people, and that's how I feel as well.

 

[softgrey]

Its the same old prada thing, while it has its 'serious' fashion moments (or some would call them pretentions) it also wants to be a huge global economic force. But high brow fashion (rather than simply high end fashion) and huge profits tend not to mix too well, I don't think. there's a fundamental mismatch there which prada overcomes (credit to it) by allowing muiccia to play away with her (psuedo?) intellectualism while in reality its about bags & shoes & pradasport &nylon suits marketing.... The relationship with Jil sander and HL was never going to be so connected. fewer people are interested in JS's & HL's work because thats all they do & its perceived as being 'too weird' by the handbag buying masses. Intelligent fashion. they, Sander & Lang, didn't want to compromise their ideals (and anyway why would they when any dividends now go to Mr & Mrs Prada!). But as all workers can, they chose to withdraw their labour. Maybe Prada should have kept Sander & Lang closer after all.

great great post...!...i agree completely...it is extraordinarily difficult to make HUGE profits without compromising what you believe in...and i speak from experience here...hence the term 'SELL OUT'...

if you want to make money...you basically put yourself up for sale...and instead of producing what you love and believe in...you give the people what they want...you become a hired gun...and you get PAID...this is how it works ...and i think it's true accross the board in all industries and in all parts of the world...or at least in a capitalist society...this is what i have learned...
(and i don't like it one tiny bit...!!!...BOO!!...)

so the people with the strongest convictions suffer the most...because it is hard to survive financially and emotionally at the same time...

in answer to macchiom's question...YES...i think that jil and helmut's customers are like yohji and comme freaks...they understand and admire the aesthetic of the designer...and that is a great component in the overall concept of the brand...it's not just a label...it's a philosophical idea...

so i agree with helena...prada has shot itself in the foot by driving these designers to resign...

look at gucci...even they could not sustain without tom ford...and he was only a stylist...OT...they should just hire a great stylist to whip that place into shape...I volunteer!!!

 

[macchiom]

I may have written my post misleadingly. The exact reason why I called the Jil/Helmut customer "discerning" is because when they buy a piece from these designers, they are buying a creation from a designer that pioneered a certain aesthetic, and they are loyal to him - it's a more personal feeling than just buying an item. The designs done by design teams may be just as good, but there will always be Bertelli behind them, and that customer won't buy an item just because the label reads "Helmut Lang". That's what I gathered from conversations with some people, and that's how I feel as well.

I had a feeling that was what you meant and I surely appreciate that point of view.

I know however, that I’ll not stop buying Jil Sander or Helmut Lang “just” because the designers have left. If the design teams come up with something I like I’ll buy it regardless, just like I’ve already bought quite a few items from the collections Vukmirovic designed for Jil Sander.

But then again, this might be because I don’t think Bertelli is solely to blame for the current situation and therefore don’t have the same need to “punish” him as others might have…?

 

[Kimkhuu]

I pretty much agree with Softgrey. As sad as it may be, most designers have to let their real tastes and visions aside to conform to the "real needs": money money money. They do that by esp. creating perfume lines and ridiculous must have accessories. And they subsist. But once all that is done, look at the clothes, too much concentration on what is supposed to be secondary.

Some designers nowadays have to change their formulas to still be "hot" and up to date. They can't keep their weird formulas if they want to make more profit. Just think of Lanvin and Alexander McQueen. Are they what they used to be? I think the F/W 05 collections spoke for themselves. Clothes that are more marketable, but far less interesting than what McQueen and Elbaz usually come up with. I agree with whoever said Helmut Lang saw that coming, and I am actually happy he did in a way, because I wouldn't want to see him coming up with ultra commercial crap. I am happy to see he still kept his vision till his very last collection for "Helmut Lang".

In first place, he should never have sold his name to Prada.

If he ever makes a comeback and design under a different label, I really wonder what it is going to happen. Will the "Helmut Lang owned by the Prada Group" that does a hell lot of marketing be able to compete with a line greated by Lang himself?

 

[helena]

....yohji and comme freaks...

what comme freaks? surely not........

 

[faust]

I had a feeling that was what you meant and I surely appreciate that point of view.

I know however, that I’ll not stop buying Jil Sander or Helmut Lang “just” because the designers have left. If the design teams come up with something I like I’ll buy it regardless, just like I’ve already bought quite a few items from the collections Vukmirovic designed for Jil Sander.

But then again, this might be because I don’t think Bertelli is solely to blame for the current situation and therefore don’t have the same need to “punish” him as others might have…?

I certainly don't think Bertelli is solely to blame, I'm not that idealisticly naive . Nevertheless, I belong to that part of Helmut's customer base that probably won't bother anymore.

 

[Kimkhuu]

I know however, that I’ll not stop buying Jil Sander or Helmut Lang “just” because the designers have left. If the design teams come up with something I like I’ll buy it regardless,

I totally understand your point of view.

However I think that real Helmut fans, which in my opinion consist of 80% + of his clientele buy his designs because they appreciate HIS vision. Of course the design team that will be assigned to design for the label will be able to come up with clothes that reflect his vision. But I think Helmut's fans will rapidly loose interest in the collection because the real guy behind such a beautiful vision won't be the one doing it.

In my opinion, no design team can ever equal the real designer. Because the real one is the one that has the purest vision. The rest (the team minus the head designer) are just a bunch of "copycats" trying to reproduce the designer's vision.

 

[sec]

Did he design AW/05/06 Womenswear?

 

[macchiom]

I certainly don't think Bertelli is solely to blame, I'm not that idealisticly naive .

That’s good to here.

Nevertheless, I belong to that part of Helmut's customer base that probably won't bother anymore.

It does however sound just a wee bit idealistic to entirely drop the brand regardless of what they come up with just because the original designer has left…

 

[macchiom]

I totally understand your point of view.

However I think that real Helmut fans, which in my opinion consist of 80% + of his clientele buy his designs because they appreciate HIS vision. Of course the design team that will be assigned to design for the label will be able to come up with clothes that reflect his vision. But I think Helmut's fans will rapidly loose interest in the collection because the real guy behind such a beautiful vision won't be the one doing it.

In my opinion, no design team can ever equal the real designer. Because the real one is the one that has the purest vision. The rest (the team minus the head designer) are just a bunch of "copycats" trying to reproduce the designer's vision.

Yes, but a designers vision changes over time anyway, and I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t think everything Helmut has come up with has been pure genius, though a lot of it has!

Of course it’ll be an extremely difficult task for the design team to come up with collections up to Helmut’s standards, because they’ll miss his guidance. But I don’t see what would stop them from making collections which are great in their own rights, and thereby continue to evolve the brand.

On another note I’m curious about where you think his fans will turn to, when he's no longer designing anything himself? I believe the people, who have worked with him for years, are those most likely to come up with something which at least to some extent reflects what he would have done had he still been designing, and as far as I understand you agree with that.

From an idealistic point of view I can easily see why people will refuse to buy anything from the brand after he has left anyway, though.

 

[Deleted member 7575]

HMMMM


I know some people who buy Jil Sander and Helmut Lang not because they respect their vision or good designes but because they saw a shirt in a GQ style guide they liked. I know lots of people who know of Helmut Lang and Jil Sanders as labels but not much else. These are the people that are going to keep on buying from the label even after the namesakes have stopped designing. They don't even realize the designers are gone and I doubt they care.

 

[Alejandro]

That's sad

 

[jayson]

That's sad

Please dont cry

 

[Andro]

I think in a way, everyone involved has a part to be blamed for:

(Except for the loyal customer base that makes up the majority of sales profit for Jil and Helmut.)

- The designers for being so naive to the regulations.
- Prada, for its greed of wealth.
- And the buyers for marketing to these big companies.

In no way did the Prada group ever make it clear that creative freedom would be compromised for making sales profits. As the case with Jil Sander when Prada restricted its production of high quality textile materials and use of costly tailor made detailing. As many people know, this restriction goes against the whole concept and image of that brand, which is recognized for its couture quality finishes. For a discerning customer, this would make the difference in purchasing a beautiful well-made product rather than buying it for the status sake of the name on the label.

As for the reason to why Helmut Lang left, I don't know... For whatever reason, it must have been significant enough for him to abandon his own company; That was built on the merits of his own hard work and labor.

Jil Sander and Helmut Lang are the type of labels that are recognized for their control in the product management and marketing. Not just the creative design. So there is a whole different type of aesthetic that is related to the image of these two brands. Which makes it much more difficult than just selling bags and shoes. (As with Prada which makes 80% of its profit in accessories; opposed to Sander/Lang that make most of their money in clothing and the philosophy behind the creative image.

 

[nqth]

I think that even the best team cannot replace the designer. He or she gives the clothes his/her individuality, the character, "the touch". And I think for the labels like JS or HL, the designer is the key. Team could make good, cool or super clothes, but will never reach the "cult status", like JS or HL once had. And there is no "reliability" with the team, because they only follow someone else's style, and the team itself could possibly "rotated" as fast as the season comes and goes.

 

[I_Want_That_One]

why why why why why why oh WHY