Luxe attack for China

[kit]

Regarding the failure of socialism, I'd like to point out that the Scandinavian, socialist countries are constantly at the top when UN and other international organisations compare countries when it comes to education, quality of living and so on.

An important point , Tott , that is more often than not , completely ignored by politicians with different agendas and baggage .

Witness Tony Bliar in his present European labour-deregulation-mission mode .

The only difference , which I admit is NOT inconsiderable , is that the Scandinavian countries have much smaller populations than , say , the UK .
It's MUCH easier for governments to be generous with their electorates when the ' social wage ' has to cover , say 10,000,000 , rather than 50,000,000 .
You are lucky in where you live , Tott .

 

[fujiema]

OT: does China still retain its one baby per family rule?

i think that's the reason why China is booming.
cause they have extra money to buy luxury goods.

 

[Alpha Femme]

Regarding the failure of socialism, I'd like to point out that the Scandinavian, socialist countries are constantly at the top when UN and other international organisations compare countries when it comes to education, quality of living and so on.

Hejsan

Som du vet ar Sverige pa utforsbanan pa de senast 20 aren. Saker och ting i Sverige ar sa mycket samre nu med hogre brotts nivaer och en regering som inte lyfter ett finger. Alla klagar men lika dant varje valar, man rostar med tradition. Det svenska valfards samhallet som ger Sverige hoga betyg i FN och sa vidare ar bara ett luftslott for varlden att se. I sjalva verket sa lonar det sig inte att tjana pengar i Sverige. Se bara pa hur staten blaste svenka folket nar de salde Telia.

 

[kit]

Hejsan

Som du vet ar Sverige pa utforsbanan pa de senast 20 aren. Saker och ting i Sverige ar sa mycket samre nu med hogre brotts nivaer och en regering som inte lyfter ett finger. Alla klagar men lika dant varje valar, man rostar med tradition. Det svenska valfards samhallet som ger Sverige hoga betyg i FN och sa vidare ar bara ett luftslott for varlden att se. I sjalva verket sa lonar det sig inte att tjana pengar i Sverige. Se bara pa hur staten blaste svenka folket nar de salde Telia.

I don't understand this but it really sounds impressive .

 

[tott]

Hejsan

Som du vet ar Sverige pa utforsbanan pa de senast 20 aren. Saker och ting i Sverige ar sa mycket samre nu med hogre brotts nivaer och en regering som inte lyfter ett finger. Alla klagar men lika dant varje valar, man rostar med tradition. Det svenska valfards samhallet som ger Sverige hoga betyg i FN och sa vidare ar bara ett luftslott for varlden att se. I sjalva verket sa lonar det sig inte att tjana pengar i Sverige. Se bara pa hur staten blaste svenka folket nar de salde Telia.

Hej på dig med!

I think we should keep this in English to be polite to other posters.

I'll translate your pidgin Swedish: "As you know, Sweden has been slipping downhill during the past 20 years. Things in Sweden are so much worse now, with crime on the rise and a government that doesn't lift a finger. Everyone's complaining, but it's the same every election; people vote like they've always done. The welfare society that gives Sweden high grades in UN and so on is just imagery for the world to see. In reality, it doesn't pay to earn money in Sweden. Just look at the way the state screwed the Swedish people when they made Telia publicly traded."

I'll get back to you...

 

[kit]

Hej på dig med!

I think we should keep this in English to be polite to other posters.

I'll translate your pidgin Swedish: "As you know, Sweden has been slipping downhill during the past 20 years. Things in Sweden are so much worse now, with crime on the rise and a government that doesn't lift a finger. Everyone's complaining, but it's the same every election; people vote like they've always done. The welfare society that gives Sweden high grades in UN and so on is just imagery for the world to see. In reality, it doesn't pay to earn money in Sweden. Just look at the way the state screwed the Swedish people when they made Telia publicly traded."

I'll get back to you...

This has been said about the UK .

It's all relative and at least you are not being subjected to ' The Third Way ' .

 

[Alpha Femme]

Hej på dig med!

I'll translate your pidgin Swedish:
...

But honey, you understood it didn't you? Well, forgive me if it's not perfect Swedish. I don't think it's that bad considering I'm not Swedish, hubby is. I have more to improve on yes, but I am older . However, I'm sure our daughter's Swedish will be much better than mine by the time she's an adult.

 

[diorable]

Umm...my mom grew up in China...she liked the communism. And she came from a extremely lower class family who could only afford meat once a year. Eggs were considered a luxury...that's how poor they were. Some people like communism, you know. I don't know anything about it...but my mom is now a millionaire in America and she still likes communism...it can't be that bad.

 

[tott]

But honey, you understood it didn't you? Well, forgive me if it's not perfect Swedish. I don't think it's that bad considering I'm not Swedish, hubby is. I have more to improve on yes, but I am older . However, I'm sure our daughter's Swedish will be much better than mine by the time she's an adult.

You push my buttons...

But that's no reason to be impolite, I apologize.

 

[tott]

As you know, Sweden has been slipping downhill during the past 20 years. Things in Sweden are so much worse now, with crime on the rise and a government that doesn't lift a finger. Everyone's complaining, but it's the same every election; people vote like they've always done. The welfare society that gives Sweden high grades in UN and so on is just imagery for the world to see. In reality, it doesn't pay to earn money in Sweden. Just look at the way the state screwed the Swedish people when they made Telia publicly traded.

OK, where to start... The Swedish welfare state is eroding and has been for quite some time, and as sad as that is, it's not a specific Swedish/socialist problem. It's happening all over, in the US and UK as well; I'm sure you're aware of the fact that there are trends and tendencies in local as well as global politics.

Like kit said: "This has been said about the UK ."

I don't really know whether the crime rate has gone up or down in general, but I did read an interesting article a few months ago: violent crimes have actually decreased the past decades, but people are more prone than ever to view society as violent and dangerous. Maybe because crime is more sensationalised nowadays, there are more pictures and juicier headlines.

We have practically obscene tax rates in Sweden, and I do feel like we don't get as much for them as we used to. Again, the erosion is not a uniquely Swedish problem. And even though it has become weaker, we still have a safety net which is a lot stronger than in many, many countries.

So, taxes are lower in some other countries like the US and Germany. BUT in addition to those lower taxes, you need to pay for health insurance and other stuff which is included in Swedish taxes. I really believe that the general "cost of living" is about equal in the western world. All governments will bleed their citizens as much as they can...

People are gullible, that's why the state managed to scam a lot of people with the Telia sale. (The government privatised the state-owned phone co.) As much as I dislike the way this sale was handled, people should know that buying into the stock market is not a sure, safe way to handle money...

 

[kit]

OK, where to start... The Swedish welfare state is eroding and has been for quite some time, and as sad as that is, it's not a specific Swedish/socialist problem. It's happening all over, in the US and UK as well; I'm sure you're aware of the fact that there are trends and tendencies in local as well as global politics.

Like kit said: "This has been said about the UK ."

I don't really know whether the crime rate has gone up or down in general, but I did read an interesting article a few months ago: violent crimes have actually decreased the past decades, but people are more prone than ever to view society as violent and dangerous. Maybe because crime is more sensationalised nowadays, there are more pictures and juicier headlines.

We have practically obscene tax rates in Sweden, and I do feel like we don't get as much for them as we used to. Again, the erosion is not a uniquely Swedish problem. And even though it has become weaker, we still have a safety net which is a lot stronger than in many, many countries.

So, taxes are lower in some other countries like the US and Germany. BUT in addition to those lower taxes, you need to pay for health insurance and other stuff which is included in Swedish taxes. I really believe that the general "cost of living" is about equal in the western world. All governments will bleed their citizens as much as they can...

People are gullible, that's why the state managed to scam a lot of people with the Telia sale. (The government privatised the state-owned phone co.) As much as I dislike the way this sale was handled, people should know that buying into the stock market is not a sure, safe way to handle money...

It's ALL about deregulation of the labour market , erosion of ' the social wage ' , in the name of ' realism ' , since in the UK , for instance , the government would not be able to reward the middle class with minimal taxation if it salted money away in order to pay workers a decent pension on their retirement .
That's why the money collected from enforced saving for retirement will be given over to private insurance companies , with all the insecurity of that money invested in the stock market . The crisis of an ageing population is bemoaned at every turn while fat-cats of ' industry ' garner enormous pension pots and gigantic share options , very often as a reward for FAILURE on their part as captains of industry - meaning what little is left of the UK manufacturing base that has not been transferred to the far east .

Tht's why ' Old Europe ' is so sceptical of the anglo-saxon economic model .

 

[kit]

BTW ,

To get us back on topic , as far as ' Luxe attack for China ' is concerned , I found this today :-


China's new consumers get a taste for luxury goods

[font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]A sales boom is attracting foreign manufacturers to a market expected to grow to $3.7 trillion in 10 years[/font]

[font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Jonathan Watts in the Salon de Chocolat in Beijing
Saturday June 18, 2005
The Guardian

[/font][font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Yang Jing, a pastry chef with a sweet tooth, grins as he pops into his mouth one of his most sumptuous creations: a ball of luxury French chocolate, mixed with cream, vodka and ginger and decorated with flakes of real gold.

The 32-year-old could hardly have imagined such luxury while he was growing up in a Beijing of ration coupons and food kiosks. Yang had to wait until he was eight - just after China opened up its economy - to get his first taste of chocolate.
Now his corpulent figure is hard to equate with the scrawny boy he once was, a transformation that embodies the remarkable consumption habits of the world's most populous nation.


From luxury confectionery and designer clothes to imported beers and expensive cars, Chinese shoppers are buying as they have never bought before.

Sales at restaurants and retail outlets are growing even faster than the spectacular 9% annual expansion of the economy. In the past six years, 400 giant shopping centres, many more than double the size of anything in Britain, have opened throughout the country.

China has overtaken the US in sales of televisions and mobile phones. In the next few years, it will become the biggest market for computers. And a double digit rise in urban incomes has drawn Cartier, Prada and Armani to expand here faster than anywhere else in the world.

The rise in consumption has alarmed dieticians, who say that obesity rates have doubled in 10 years, and environmentalists, who say the planet will be doomed if China's 1.3bn population starts to eat and shop like Americans or Europeans.

But foreign retailers are queueing up to influence the tastes of a still embryonic market. The latest group of proselytisers was a party of luxury chocolate makers from France, Switzerland and Russia, who participated alongside Yang at China's first international chocolate fair.

In the resplendent setting of Beijing's Hyatt hotel, they sought to grab the attention of consumers with a chocolate fashion show, featuring models draped in confectionery, and a row of stalls offering free samples of delicacies that normally sell for £30 to £60 a kilo.

"China is the future of civilisation," said Sylvie Douce, producer of the Salon de Chocolat, which has held annual events in France, the US and Japan since it started 11 years ago.

"In Japan, when we first arrived, they didn't eat much chocolate, but now everyone does. It will be the same here. I want to be here right at the start."

The task of persuading China that it should be sweeter as well as richer has just started. The average consumer eats a kilo (2.2lbs) of confectionery a year - a tenth of the average for developed countries. China's $4.3bn sweet market is dominated by cheap products made by domestic manufacturers such as White Rabbit Creamy Candy Factory and foreign giants such as Mars.

But with sales of chocolate forecast to triple between 1998 and 2008, foreign firms are keen to be the first to control lucrative niches.

Two months ago, Jeff de Bruges, a French luxury chocolate retailer that has 250 outlets worldwide, made its first venture into Asia by opening a shop in Shanghai with a local partner. The manager, Philippe Jamba, said it was a test venture in a market that is still more about potential than current sales.

"We have to tell people what chocolate is about. It is a huge education process."

There is no shortage of willing foreign teachers. Last November, almost 70% of the exhibitors at China's first sweet fair were from foreign companies.

Executives from the world's best known clothing and accessory companies are acutely aware of the potential. "China is certainly the most prominent and most important market we have in front of us," Paolo Fontanelli, chief financial officer for Giorgio Armani, told delegates at a luxury brand conference in Shanghai.

By 2008, his company will more than double its number of outlets in China to 30. Prada expects to have 20 by the end of this year. Cartier has opened seven in the past six months.

Poverty gap


With hundreds of millions of peasants still below the poverty line, China is an unbalanced market. But analysts believe the only way is up. Merrill Lynch estimates that only 30 million people - 2% of the population - can afford luxury goods, but by 2009, China will account for 20% of the world market in such high-end products.

Credit Suisse First Boston forecasts that spending by Chinese consumers will quintuple in the next 10 years to $3.7 trillion (£2.03 trillion) - an increase of 18% a year - compared with 1-3% in mature markets like Japan, the US and Europe.

By 2015, the bank predicts, "Chinese consumers will likely have displaced US consumers as the primary engine of global economic growth."

The government seems keen to encourage the trend, which will help to offset China's huge and politically sensitive trade surplus. After the announcement of a 13% rise in retail sales and a 20% rise in restaurant revenues last month, the central bank governor, Zhou Xiaochuan, said he was happy that Chinese people are spending more because their savings rate - currently 38% of incomes - was "pretty high". It is actually among the highest in the world, far above the US, which has near zero rates of saving.

At the Salon de Chocolat, there were plenty of volunteers willing to splash out.

Liu Ying, 26, a trading company employee, said her income had risen more than 50% in the past few years to 15,000 renminbi (about £1,000) a month. She has used the extra cash to buy a £170 Gucci watch, a £200 Coach bag from Hong Kong, and a £120 necklace from Folli Follie.

Her consumption of international brands is a long way from the values that her parents' generation grew up with during the cultural revolution. But she said they had accepted the change as easily as she had. "My parents' lives were quite tough, but they are very open-minded," said Liu as she nibbled on a wafer-thin chocolate slice. "As long as I can afford to pay, they don't mind what I buy."




Relevant to our discussion , wouldn't you say ?
[/font]

 

[nqth]

I thought I should keep out from this:-)

The communism is an utopia. It doesn't work. One might think it gives people "equality". One is wrong. It gives equal poverty, in both economic, and mental means. "You are better be poor like everybody else, think, and act like everybody else or you, your family, your friends will go to prison".

Do you remember that German people were killed at the Berlin Wall, Polish workers were shot dead at anti goverment demonstrations, soldiers and tanks via students in Tienamen Square. You could understand why thousands of people ran aways from their "wonderful communistic homes" to the "capitalistic devil one".

Vietnam is one of the biggest rice exporter now, but only more than decade ago, when communist rules were "stiff", people were given "tickets for rice". And there weren't much of it at "state rice stores". In Poland there were 4kg of meat for people under 18, 2.5 kg for adults every month. And one hardly saw the meat (and anything else) at stores. I remembered only Pepsi in glass bottles were never in short of suply:-P


Things have changed radically since Poland Solidarity movement turned Poland to the West and the Berlin wall fell.

There are few communist countries left. China, Vietnam, South Korea, Cuba. Although China and Vietnam are not considered by many anymore. There is "cashed communism". The one-party system still reminds. You might know why? Because the party could control all the investment, and the cash.

Of course, live is much better for people now. The first benefit go straight to "elites" first. But I think that more and more people will have it. Now the polictical issues are less seen. More is the economical ones.

So if you think that it is superb now, you are not that right, tho. If you go to Vietnam for a trip. You might think it is a wonderful experience. Everything is cheap. Hotel for 10 usd. Meal for 50 cent. Do you really want it to be cheap forever?

I am aware of the differences between the ways communism and socialism are seen the the West and here. People in the West think this has a human face, in comparison with the devil of capitalism. Well, it is only "a face", with a lot of make up:-P

I know people who made "social faux paux" in Italy in the early 90s. She was criticizing communism in Poland:-)) And please notice that the anti-communism here in Poland is very strong at universties, among journalists...

Here in Poland people lost there families in Siberia, Katyn after II World War. They also lost their house, land and sometimes everything.

I have heard a lot of agnedotes that show it. After the end of II World War a lot of Polish officers wanted to stay in UK. But people who escaped from Poland were told to go straight to the US part of Gemany, because the UK administration sent them back to the Soviet one. When Polish people explained that if they go back they will be arrested, an English officer told them just not to open the door.

 

[kit]

All that you say is very true , nqth


It's the eternal conumdrum .
How does one bring about a ' fair ' society , when you have to contend with human nature and all its propensity to selfishness and acquisitiveness ?

( In fact we're back AGAIN to ' The materialistic Society ' thread .)

Nobody has yet found a system that works for all .
Capitalism actually , in its essentials , actually means self interest , red in tooth and claw , but having myself seen communism in action in Russia in the 1970s , that system actually did not provide any antidote to the depredations of capitalism , in fact , quite the reverse .

George Orwell in ' Animal Farm ' was absolutely right , although his message is a very bleak one .

 

[nqth]

Thank you, kit:-)

I think that we are criticizing the "raw" capitalism... And critical approach to the system is indeed possible only in democratic system, not in any of systems before. And human rights, labour rights... issues, which are respectable and available only in democratics countries (where the "bad":-P capitalistic economy takes place).

The point is to reach "compromises", I think:-)

 

[kit]

Thank you, kit:-)

I think that we are criticizing the "raw" capitalism... And critical approach to the system is indeed possible only in democratic system, not in any of systems before. And human rights, labour rights... issues, which are respectable and available only in democratics countries (where the "bad":-P capitalistic economy takes place).

The point is to reach "compromises", I think:-)

This is effectively , exactly what I have just said to a TFS member in a PM , shocked and appalled by the fact that I might be a supporter of unadulterated capitalism .

You're right , compromise is all in this situation , with one's own private conscience and with the political and economic system under which one has to live .


BTW

We'd better stay on topic or a mod will bear down upon us wielding the sword of relevance .

 

[faust]

Obviously you have no experience in free markets and what it is. And to answer your "One": The purest form of free markets we have is foreign exchange and commodity markets. And to answer your "Two": I posted in the past books can't teach you anything if you don't understand what you are reading and teachers can't teach if they don't have any experience in the subject, they just repeat what the books tell them. No government system is perfect but the ones that are proven not to be working are socialism and communism. And as for your "BTW", keep it to the subject and stay out of the politics. When it comes to killing their economy, it's simple, once the Yuan is floating freely it will soar to such levels that their export will be cut in pieces.

Have you ever lived in a socialistic/communistic society?

Obviously, you answered neither of my questions. Not only that, you just completely tried to reverse your pegging-Yuan position. First you said that China is hurting themselves by pegging the Yuan, now you are trying to say that they will hurt themselves by unpegging it. So which is it?

And yes, I have lived in a socilaistic/communistic society. I also hold a degree in finance, and has been working in the financial markets industry for 8 years, so do your homework before you post.

And BTW, China holds $230 billion in US govt. debt.

 

[StyleIsInUs]

china is the new up and coming coutry we did about it in geography and its the country which has gained the most wealth the fastest as of resently. Its is a boom, so people have money for designer luxuries, so lots of designers are setting up there.

Oh, yes. Agree. what's to say ...

 

[Alpha Femme]

Obviously, you answered neither of my questions.
Can you specify which question I didn't answer, as far as I can see I answered all. Not only that, you just completely tried to reverse your pegging-Yuan position. First you said that China is hurting themselves by pegging the Yuan, now you are trying to say that they will hurt themselves by unpegging it. So which is it? I did answer your question, it's just that your mind is not connected. If you read my initial posting it said "their stubborn way of keeping the Yuan pegged to the Dollar" meaning that the longer they keep it that way the more they are going to hurt themselves. Bush's administration is pushing the issue to create a free market condition, as it is now China is gaining great advantage from pegging their currency. At this point China doesn't care what's going on outside their borders, that's why they keep telling eveyone to butt out of their domestic affairs.
And yes, I have lived in a socilaistic/communistic society. I also hold a degree in finance, and has been working in the financial markets industry for 8 years, so do your homework before you post.
At least we have something in common...so tell me what's so great about socialism/communism? Your 8 years doesn't impress me by the way, hate to say it but I have a lot more experience than you but I don't brag about it.

And BTW, China holds $230 billion in US govt. debt.Where did you find that number? Are you mixing in commerical bank/insurance holdings? If you know anything about finance/banking/insurance their charter stipulate that they buy Government issued bonds. $230 Billion is still a very small amount.

I hope I answered all your questions.

 

[Alpha Femme]

Post #93