Pierpaolo Piccioli - Designer, Creative Director of Balenciaga

[chungkyekye]

i totally get what you're saying but lately with all the new debuts going on, i look back wonder whether things were really as bad as they were made up to be and i felt the need to rationalise and wonder if i really gave them a fair chance.

regarding the brand signature colours mentioned like tiffany blue, hermes orange - i get where u were coming from but i looked at it from more of a trend angle and those mentioned are so part of the established brand identity so they can't really enter the 'trend' category.

ancora red definitely flopped but from my angle and area (but i'm not in forecasting) - the pink and lime green trickled down incredibly effectively during the time and throughout many ranges until i (or maybe just me?) couldnt escape from them when you looked at buys and it resonated in some sort of way (although its might not be as strong as bottega green). but i think where i'm coming from is while the brands themselves might not have fully reaped the 'benefits' (sales) i definitely see all the parties that did in the wider ecosystem - maybe i wasnt clear enough

in terms of the actual fashions they are putting out - well it was what it is but and i don't feel that strongly about them - they are just 'there.' i'm trying to take a more balanced approach

 

[Monsieur Cristobal]

Sabato, whose oeuvre as a designer is quite average, was given a stellar opportunity for two years and it didn't work.
Clap if you care 🤣

Now, what can make me cry is that a brilliant mind like Patrick van Om. has been working in the shadows for 25 years or that Theyskens is not doing Dior.

 

[Lola701]

Sabato, whose oeuvre as a designer is quite average, was given a stellar opportunity for two years and it didn't work.
Clap if you care 🤣

Now, what can make me cry is that a brilliant mind like Patrick van Om. has been working in the shadows for 25 years or that Theyskens is not doing Dior.

Some designers may not like what comes with being the CD of a big brand.
For me Patrick would be great at a smaller brand as a CD or as a design director at a big one.

Do I want this kind of designers at a giant brand where you would have to put products that you may not necessarily like or believe in just because you have to respond to a commercial need?

Ancora is such a weird case. In retrospective, I think that his debut collection was his best collection. And I’m starting to believe that he was much more unsure of his vision than his cockiness in interviews suggested.
The look with the chunky blue sweater, the jeans and the burgundy slingbacks is the look that stuck on my mind.

I can totally respect something that I don’t like if there’s a vision in it, which means a sense of consistency, confidence and cohesion. I don’t need to like something to recognize that it’s well done.

I find MiuMiu mediocre nowadays tbh but you can’t deny that there’s a vision. It’s a pity that their fashion has become merch but at least it’s coherent.

I wonder where Ancora is going next btw.

 

[jeanclaude]

The only thing I remember about our dearest Sabato is him dancing backstage, while wearing a cheap-looking GUCCI t-shirt.

 

[PDFSD]

Some designers may not like what comes with being the CD of a big brand.
For me Patrick would be great at a smaller brand as a CD or as a design director at a big one.

Do I want this kind of designers at a giant brand where you would have to put products that you may not necessarily like or believe in just because you have to respond to a commercial need?

Ancora is such a weird case. In retrospective, I think that his debut collection was his best collection. And I’m starting to believe that he was much more unsure of his vision than his cockiness in interviews suggested.
The look with the chunky blue sweater, the jeans and the burgundy slingbacks is the look that stuck on my mind.

I can totally respect something that I don’t like if there’s a vision in it, which means a sense of consistency, confidence and cohesion. I don’t need to like something to recognize that it’s well done.

I find MiuMiu mediocre nowadays tbh but you can’t deny that there’s a vision. It’s a pity that their fashion has become merch but at least it’s coherent.

I wonder where Ancora is going next btw.

true only one observation Miu Miu always had merch always had very commercial items the base of the items always had a simplicity to them , even when styled odd , i think what people notice now is the preppy items are more and there is the logo now on everything .....but miu miu clothes where always very flat industrial made and simple instore post collections even more.

she likes that brutalist in clothes making something that is industrially made by multiple prada has it as well , bertelli is a factory guy he pride himself on his they pride themselves on how fast they can decide making something last minute.

prada is a brutally commercial company miuccia said it already she wants to speak to the world not a small elite thats too easy and she is bored by that .

 

[Caffeine]

true only one observation Miu Miu always had merch always had very commercial items the base of the items always had a simplicity to them , even when styled odd , i think what people notice now is the preppy items are more and there is the logo now on everything .....but miu miu clothes where always very flat industrial made and simple instore post collections even more.

she likes that brutalist in clothes making something that is industrially made by multiple prada has it as well , bertelli is a factory guy he pride himself on his they pride themselves on how fast they can decide making something last minute.

prada is a brutally commercial company miuccia said it already she wants to speak to the world not a small elite thats too easy and she is bored by that .

but her price suggests otherwise

 

[PDFSD]

but her price suggests otherwise

the world does not mean she morphed into the red cross 😚

its about speaking not to just a (small) niche audience, but doing something that's niche that can be understood or liked by many (rich people ) that's her challenge she mentioned.

 

[Lola701]

true only one observation Miu Miu always had merch always had very commercial items the base of the items always had a simplicity to them , even when styled odd , i think what people notice now is the preppy items are more and there is the logo now on everything .....but miu miu clothes where always very flat industrial made and simple instore post collections even more.

she likes that brutalist in clothes making something that is industrially made by multiple prada has it as well , bertelli is a factory guy he pride himself on his they pride themselves on how fast they can decide making something last minute.

prada is a brutally commercial company miuccia said it already she wants to speak to the world not a small elite thats too easy and she is bored by that .

I love good commercial fashion. I mean, that’s what we wears after all. I was a huge fan of MiuMiu from the moment they started to show in Paris up until 2015/2016.

For me, it’s simple. When you have to put a f***** gros grain « MiuMiu » tab on every RTW item available, for me you are selling merch. Why do they need to put that logo on an evening gown?

I think at Prada/MiuMiu they have one of the worst approach to logo.

Thankfully, MiuMiu is still quite niche after all and has that aura. Hopefully they will change it as their growth will slow down.

When it comes to luxury fashion, even if MiuMiu has some great knitwear and that the styling of the runway show is sometimes quite inspiring, it’s really not a brand that is speaking to me anymore.

 

[jeanclaude]

The irony of Miu-Miu being Prada´s cheaper line, when it was launched...

 

[PDFSD]

The irony of Miu-Miu being Prada´s cheaper line, when it was launched...

But also miu miu is how she likes to be like and prada is what she is ...her own words.
From all the secondary lines Miu Miu is on of the fews that still exist besides emporio armani who else is there with a substantial secondary youth line concept ?
price increase that's the market not having a price resistance as well both prada and miu miu are overpriced now as many other brands are.
i bet if miu miu stayed less costly it would have not done as well that's also the reality of people's perception to price and halo brand effect ..also miu miu stuff comes out of same factory as prada.....

 

[Cocteau Stone]

^ random thought, but many brands today have done a disservice by discontinuing their diffusion or “younger” lines. McQ, Versus, Marc by Marc Jacobs, D&G, Cavalli… Not saying they were the greatest, but they provided a different offering/alternative where at the time they were still in line with the ethos but were for a different price point.

Some melded them into the mainline, which made the RTW more confusing and out of touch. Others got rid of them altogether and lost a notable clientele. They’re not a necessity for all, but for most of them they were a great outlet for other ideas and pieces that would have been a bit odd to present in the mainline division. Now there’s the reliance on pre-collections, shop floor collections and diffused mainline that creates a huge disconnect between what’s presented and what is actually sold. It’s a shame. It emphasised both niche and audience outreach. Some of these brands are hemorrhaging money because they’re trying to make the mainline do what the diffusion did at a different cost whilst also not being truthful to what’s being presented.

 

[PDFSD]

^ random thought, but many brands today have done a disservice by discontinuing their diffusion or “younger” lines. McQ, Versus, Marc by Marc Jacobs, D&G, Cavalli… Not saying they were the greatest, but they provided a different offering/alternative where at the time they were still in line with the ethos but were for a different price point.

Some melded them into the mainline, which made the RTW more confusing and out of touch. Others got rid of them altogether and lost a notable clientele. They’re not a necessity for all, but for most of them they were a great outlet for other ideas and pieces that would have been a bit odd to present in the mainline division. Now there’s the reliance on pre-collections, shop floor collections and diffused mainline that creates a huge disconnect between what’s presented and what is actually sold. It’s a shame. It emphasised both niche and audience outreach. Some of these brands are hemorrhaging money because they’re trying to make the mainline do what the diffusion did at a different cost whilst also not being truthful to what’s being presented.

I did enjoy early Versus to me it made sense even the name can stand on its own like a Miu Miu , D&G was also not bad and could have been there miu Miu Miu now if they had more discipline in separating the lines consistently. ( agree 100% Some melded them into the mainline, which made the RTW more confusing and out of touch.)

Also this to me is on point :... of these brands are hemorrhaging money because they’re trying to make the mainline do what the diffusion did at a different cost whilst also not being truthful to what’s being presented.

I think many brands that had second lines just did not have the discipline to stick i out and have clear visions for the main brand already and this resulted in secondary lines being a burden and with fear of further brand dilution of having second line ment for a while.

Point is you have to take the secondary line serious as a brand on its own, if not people will see through it as a cheap money grab etc

Marc by marc is perfect example of that he treated it a easy cash cow this end up eroding also the full name label brand etc than also marc main line became a show and not a brand any more .

 

[Lola701]

^ random thought, but many brands today have done a disservice by discontinuing their diffusion or “younger” lines. McQ, Versus, Marc by Marc Jacobs, D&G, Cavalli… Not saying they were the greatest, but they provided a different offering/alternative where at the time they were still in line with the ethos but were for a different price point.

Some melded them into the mainline, which made the RTW more confusing and out of touch. Others got rid of them altogether and lost a notable clientele. They’re not a necessity for all, but for most of them they were a great outlet for other ideas and pieces that would have been a bit odd to present in the mainline division. Now there’s the reliance on pre-collections, shop floor collections and diffused mainline that creates a huge disconnect between what’s presented and what is actually sold. It’s a shame. It emphasised both niche and audience outreach. Some of these brands are hemorrhaging money because they’re trying to make the mainline do what the diffusion did at a different cost whilst also not being truthful to what’s being presented.

But it was already the case before no?
I mean the diffusion lines were made at first to appeal to a younger generation, essentially mine. They were at lower prices but the rythmn of production was essentially the same as the businesses grew.

Dolce & Gabbana discontinuing or rather merging D&G and the mainline all together made sense. In terms of price point, D&G was going toe to toe with the mainline.

And let’s not forget that it happened around the crisis and what created even more confusion were the licenses lines of the diffusion lines.

Versace had Versus which was in all fairness only a great brand in the 90’s and when Kane became CD. But they had Versace Collection for the department stores, Versace Jeans Couture. Cavalli had Just Cavalli but also Class Cavalli.
Those diffusion lines created more confusion than the system we have today.

I mean look at Marc Jacobs. The diffusion line became more, much more important than the mainline. And again, they still streamlined some of the business.

I remember that he had Marc Jacobs, Marc by Marc, Stinky Rabbit, a bunch of other stuff.

Even Valentino had Red Valentino. The distribution was larger than the mainline but they were clever to close it when the brand started to really have a great success with the mainline.

The problem was that those diffusion lines in many cases were indeed cash-grabs, created as licences in an economy that wasn’t as globalized. Burberry on top of the many lines in the western world had a bunch of lines in Japan if I remember well.
So there were compromises, teams weren’t that involved and things like that.

It’s a real casse-tête to deal with those diffusion lines. See Armani, Versace today.
Diffusion lines are most of the time business decision that may hurt on the long run the creative side and overall the integrity of the brands.

 

[PDFSD]

I do think when the diffusion line doesn't have the name of the mane line it will have a better chance to be a stand alone thing with the universe of a well defined DNA of a brand with discipline.

because young people still dress differently than adults just for this reason already.

so many more brands come to mind with a younger line Ferre ,DKNY , CK, .....

American Living by Ralph Lauren (2008-2012) made for JCPenney, Yohji Yamamoto x adidas brand Y-3 (2003-today), and Polo Western (1979-2012) which saw Ralph Lauren’s designs manufactured by GAP.

Marc by Marc Jacobs (2001-2015), See by Chloé (2001-2005) and REDValentino (2003-2022). BLACK Comme des Garçons was launched in 2008 DRKSHDW from Rick Owens (launched 2005), MM6 Maison Margiela (launched in 1997, Miu Miu (launched in 1993 ),Versace Jeans existed from the early 1990s up until 2011, and was then revived as Versace Jeans Couture in 2018.Versus Versace (1989-2005, 2009-2018),

Just Cavalli from Roberto Cavalli (1998-2018, 2022-today), and Armani Exchange by Giorgio Armani (1991-today). Emporio Armani from Giorgio Armani ,Moschino Jeans was launched in 1986 but in 2008 was rebranded as Love Moschino; Cheap and Chic, also from Moschino ran from 1998-2014 when it became Boutique Moschino, discontinued in 2023. McQ, D&G, Z Zegna, M Missoni, Comme des Garçons Homme Plus, and Giamba.
many more
a mess !!

 

[Kanzai]

Diffusion lines are most of the time business decision that may hurt on the long run the creative side and overall the integrity of the brands.

Fair points, but tbh, I don't think many designers actually care about the factors you mentioned. Not everyone is a perfectionist or obsessed with idealizing luxury and exclusivity just to gatekeep their image or creativity.

Take Giorgio Armani, for example. I don't see him as being aggressively ambitious like Bertelli or Miuccia, the man wants fashion to be more democratic rather than just something serving a specific class or group. Sure, some could argue that his fashion (in general) is very elite-oriented, but that's just in terms of aesthetics/vibes. No one is stopping the working class/blue-collar/redneck etc from wearing it, the man himself comes from a working-class background lol, he actually has a thing for gritty, social-realist cinema. Armani could have easily pulled a Prada with their predatory and extremely greedy pricing strategies, but he didn't.

Then look at Yohji, he has bunches of sub-lines and, ofc that renowned Y-3 with Adidas. Rei Kawakubo has always stated she’s a businesswoman who wants to make clothes that have never seen before. Clearly, neither she nor Adrian Joffe cares if having too many "low-market" lines affects the brand and CDG still remains the holy grail of conceptual fashion despite the endless cheap sneaker collabs every season, they literally don't care. The same goes for Issey Miyake and if we step into hardcore lifestyle empires, just look at Ralph Lauren, the whole company is doing more than just fine.

It’s really hard to define what 'true luxury' even is if we just keep using Chanel as the ultimate benchmark. Yes, it is luxury, but that doesn’t mean the whole industry has to operate on that specific business model to be considered a valid brand.

 

[Lola701]

Fair points, but tbh, I don't think many designers actually care about the factors you mentioned. Not everyone is a perfectionist or obsessed with idealizing luxury and exclusivity just to gatekeep their image or creativity.

Take Giorgio Armani, for example. I don't see him as being aggressively ambitious like Bertelli or Miuccia, the man wants fashion to be more democratic rather than just something serving a specific class or group. Sure, some could argue that his fashion (in general) is very elite-oriented, but that's just in terms of aesthetics/vibes. No one is stopping the working class/blue-collar/redneck etc from wearing it, the man himself comes from a working-class background lol, he actually has a thing for gritty, social-realist cinema. Armani could have easily pulled a Prada with their predatory and extremely greedy pricing strategies, but he didn't.

Then look at Yohji, he has bunches of sub-lines and, ofc that renowned Y-3 with Adidas. Rei Kawakubo has always stated she’s a businesswoman who wants to make clothes that have never seen before. Clearly, neither she nor Adrian Joffe cares if having too many "low-market" lines affects the brand and CDG still remains the holy grail of conceptual fashion despite the endless cheap sneaker collabs every season, they literally don't care. The same goes for Issey Miyake and if we step into hardcore lifestyle empires, just look at Ralph Lauren, the whole company is doing more than just fine.

It’s really hard to define what 'true luxury' even is if we just keep using Chanel as the ultimate benchmark. Yes, it is luxury, but that doesn’t mean the whole industry has to operate on that specific business model to be considered a valid brand.

I totally agree with you that luxury doesn’t have to be the specific business model to consider for brand. It shouldn’t actually.

The problem is that there were structural issues. The moment that culturally, we decided to accept that fashion and luxury are the same thing, we put brands that has nothing to do with each other in an unfair competition.

I mean, back then it was easy to understand. There were « Maisons de Couture » that had an heritage in Haute Couture, « Créateurs » who started directly with RTW and « luxury houses » that had an heritage in luxury goods.

That’s a discussion we have had often on this panel when it comes to talking about prices mainly.
The brands under Renzo Rosso’s OTB are the perfect example. Neither of them were luxury houses. It was créateur, designer RTW. Margiela, Marni and Jil Sander are historically what we call today « contemporary ». That’s how they were able to have returning customers from seasons to seasons.

Margiela and Jil Sander have no business selling 7K dresses.

Regarding Armani, he was still ambitious though. As agressive as the Bertelli. He had that advantage of being in control of everything and having to be responsible for everything. So he had diffusion lines from top to bottom.
I genuinely think that Emporio Armani was a game changer. It responded to a creative and technology need as it allowed him to do technical stuff, real sportswear and a real fashion proposition as potent as the mainline. Armani Prive represented the pinnacle of what he could do.
Armani Exchange was pure money grab. That’s why at first it was solely launched in the US. AE penetrated the European market when Internet became more prevalent.

Armani is a designer who was able to define his brands per segment because he managed to build a lifestyle brand, similarly to Ralph Lauren.

Unfortunately, most of the brands doing diffusion lines aren’t lifestyle brands.

For CDG, let’s be honest. Joffe did cash grabs to support the creativity of Rei. If they don’t care it’s good. We can say that it’s for the good cause but it’s a pity that all those lines takes too much place when the CDG commercial collection is also quite great.

To finish, I would say that the diffusion line question today wouldn’t be a question if brands really though about their pricing and distribution.

Too many brands, executives are looking at brands that don’t have the reach their brands have and decides to compete with them simply because they are having shows on the same calendar.

 

[Kanzai]

^ Armani is certainly Créateurs type, I think the brand’s image really only shifted towards “luxury” when he launched Privé in 2005. And I wouldn't call Privé the pinnacle of his capabilities either, considering he was already in his 70s (passed his heydays) when he finally started doing official couture. Honestly, from 1975 up until the early 90s, I don't think Armani was even viewed as a “luxury” brand.

 

[Lola701]

^ Armani is certainly Créateurs type, I think the brand’s image really only shifted towards “luxury” when he launched Privé in 2005. And I wouldn't call Privé the pinnacle of his capabilities either, considering he was already in his 70s (passed his heydays) when he finally started doing official couture. Honestly, from 1975 up until the early 90s, I don't think Armani was even viewed as a “luxury” brand.

Yes he was a créateur as he started with RTW but quickly his brand became a status symbol. By the 80’s it was already a status symbol, so a bit removed from the fashion conversation…Even more when he opened his own stores, had Lee Radzwill being his representative. Emporio took that fashion forward thing.

I call Prive the pinnacle simply because Haute Couture is supposed to be the ultimate form of expression in fashion: no limits in terms of creativity, construction, everything. Yes the brand in it perception was past its prime but I think he reached another level and gsve his empire another pulse by doing Couture.

He did in Couture things he has never done in RTW.

Gaultier is someone who followed the Armani model. He had Jean Paul Gaultier, then he started a diffusion line, Junior Gaultier to then do Haute Couture. But Gaultier despite doing fragrances, doing beauty, doing collaborations around interiors never build a lifestyle brand.

What is interesting about Gaultier is that from the moment he joined Hermes, his style became more mature, his clientele changed and ultimately disappeared in RTW.

Now they are relaunching the RTW in the positioning it should have always been.

But for me Armani, like Ferre and Valentino became quickly status symbol compared to brands like Missoni, Max Mara, Genny..