Let's keep the color out of this discussion. Puffy is not talented at anything, be it music or design. He is a businessman, and he is in it for the celebrity status, that is all. You guys can say all you want about him "making it" and people hating him for it. I can tell you what I think - I dislike him, as well as sooooooooo many others, regardless of background and color, for turning the culture to non-culture, for making the ugly and the base not only a culture norm, but a culture preference, for killing the aesthetical values with flashiness and talentlessness. Puffy is just a product of the non-culture that is prevalent today, and the fact that he can succeed only shows the tastelessness, indifference, blandness and conformity of general public.
Sean John Opens On 5th Avenue
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mikeijames
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i don't understand what all the uproar is about...there are a lot of other non-fashion brands clustered about along both fifth and madison avenues (there's an armani exchange up the block for pete's sake!) sean john is about as interesting as a brand like burberry or ralph lauren. i mean the people going into these flagships (for the most part) are tourists looking to buy ANYTHING not fashionistas (or tFsers) crawling around for the lastest "it" items. this is a very smart move for him.
and as for money buying access into the fashion world...diane von furstenberg didn't exactly start out in the poor house and neither did carolina herrera. having a certain about of money, rich friends, and that american style of royalty called celebrity is what american fashion HAS been and will CONTINUE to be about...
and as for money buying access into the fashion world...diane von furstenberg didn't exactly start out in the poor house and neither did carolina herrera. having a certain about of money, rich friends, and that american style of royalty called celebrity is what american fashion HAS been and will CONTINUE to be about...
I don't know, mabye I am biased, mabye it's because I just cannot stand P. Diddy as a person, but I just do not see Sean John as fashion.....to me he has no buisness thinking his competitors are the likes of Prada and Gucci and other houses that have become iconic for their contributions to the world of fashion. It bothers me to no end that he thinks he's worthy of that noteriety. He will never be a Prada or a Gucci or any of the names that fashion looks to for the newest thing, but he sure has himself believing he will.
Fashion is creativity, clothes are not.......Diddy needs to realize that.
Fashion is creativity, clothes are not.......Diddy needs to realize that.
The entire discussion is just too elitist.
Why should fashion be one way and not the other? Why cannot all opinions be considered, even if you don't like the designs or the methods or, even in some very obvious cases, the designer's ethnicity? While I think people's passion about the industry as a whole is comforting, the idea that real fashion, whatever that is, is paradisaic, exclusive, and bulletproof is absurd. Instead of launching venom on the large portion of the American and international public that is making his company profitable, it is launched instead at P. Diddy. There has never been an instance where anyone has seen him be anything less than enthusiastic at supporting and championing American fashion, being inspired by it and by the ideals it upheld. Whether you agree with his politics and vision or not, it is genuine.
It is very true: P. Diddy will never be Prada; he's not smart enough to take cheap synthetics and make a horribly expensive bag out of it. He will never be Gucci, dead and divided. What he will be is an American designer and, in hindsight, it seems it would be foolish to either take him too seriously or as a simple fluke, a flash in the pan. I've yet to figure out why he stands out against his contemporaries. I don't hold Kimora Lee as high; I wonder about J. Lo. But what of Rocawear? Phat Farm? Triple 5 Soul? Why do the so called urban brands not deserve the same respect? And what happens when African American designers don't kowtow to urban culture (Lawrence Steele, Tracy Reese, and Patrick Robinson)? Are they more acceptible, more worthy, more fashion?
The proverbial can of worms has been opened.
Why should fashion be one way and not the other? Why cannot all opinions be considered, even if you don't like the designs or the methods or, even in some very obvious cases, the designer's ethnicity? While I think people's passion about the industry as a whole is comforting, the idea that real fashion, whatever that is, is paradisaic, exclusive, and bulletproof is absurd. Instead of launching venom on the large portion of the American and international public that is making his company profitable, it is launched instead at P. Diddy. There has never been an instance where anyone has seen him be anything less than enthusiastic at supporting and championing American fashion, being inspired by it and by the ideals it upheld. Whether you agree with his politics and vision or not, it is genuine.
It is very true: P. Diddy will never be Prada; he's not smart enough to take cheap synthetics and make a horribly expensive bag out of it. He will never be Gucci, dead and divided. What he will be is an American designer and, in hindsight, it seems it would be foolish to either take him too seriously or as a simple fluke, a flash in the pan. I've yet to figure out why he stands out against his contemporaries. I don't hold Kimora Lee as high; I wonder about J. Lo. But what of Rocawear? Phat Farm? Triple 5 Soul? Why do the so called urban brands not deserve the same respect? And what happens when African American designers don't kowtow to urban culture (Lawrence Steele, Tracy Reese, and Patrick Robinson)? Are they more acceptible, more worthy, more fashion?
The proverbial can of worms has been opened.
Mabye if the urban brands were launched by actual designers rather then rappers/singers/producers they would be taken seriously. P.Diddy is not fashion because he has absolutely no knowledge of fashion other then being a consumer. He also has no place being in fashion because, even if he doesn't have design talent he could still rely on taste and style......but he doesn't have either of those either.
Plus, I think the fact that he seems to be in every possible area of entertainment/art is a strike against him, he seems to think he can do no wrong and I only speak for myself when I say this but that is beyond obnoxious. And I'm sorry, but oversized white t-shirts with a logo embroidered on the breast is HARDLY what I would consider fashion.
In regards to Prada's cheap synthetics and Gucci's dysfuntion...Prada stands as one of the most trend setting designers in the world at the moment and throughout her career has established herself as a house people go to for quirky, intellectually chic clothes and Gucci, despite it's current situation, helped to start a new era of fashion in the post-grunge mid-nineties while re-invigorating the way fashion advertiseing was done. Both of these, as well as other houses, worked to gain recognition and success, P. Diddy seems to think he can buy it and that is my main issue with him.
Again, I speak only for myself in this arguement, but race plays absolutely no part in my feelings. I don't care what color Puffy's skin is, he is an arrogant, self-centered, egomaniacal *** who hasn't done anything worth mentioning since the time after Notorious B.I.G's death, has the sophistication of a Beverly Hillbilly and doesn't belong thinking he is a designer.
As for designers like Lawrence Steele, Tracy Reese, and Patrick Robinson....I have way more respect for them because unlike the hip-hop artists turned "designers" they refuse to play into a stereptype....the dress Lawrence designed for Jennifer Aniston is more then enough proof that he's in a different caliber then P. Diddy.
I think people launch the venom at P. Diddy because he's the one calling himself designer, not the public.
Plus, I think the fact that he seems to be in every possible area of entertainment/art is a strike against him, he seems to think he can do no wrong and I only speak for myself when I say this but that is beyond obnoxious. And I'm sorry, but oversized white t-shirts with a logo embroidered on the breast is HARDLY what I would consider fashion.
In regards to Prada's cheap synthetics and Gucci's dysfuntion...Prada stands as one of the most trend setting designers in the world at the moment and throughout her career has established herself as a house people go to for quirky, intellectually chic clothes and Gucci, despite it's current situation, helped to start a new era of fashion in the post-grunge mid-nineties while re-invigorating the way fashion advertiseing was done. Both of these, as well as other houses, worked to gain recognition and success, P. Diddy seems to think he can buy it and that is my main issue with him.
Again, I speak only for myself in this arguement, but race plays absolutely no part in my feelings. I don't care what color Puffy's skin is, he is an arrogant, self-centered, egomaniacal *** who hasn't done anything worth mentioning since the time after Notorious B.I.G's death, has the sophistication of a Beverly Hillbilly and doesn't belong thinking he is a designer.
As for designers like Lawrence Steele, Tracy Reese, and Patrick Robinson....I have way more respect for them because unlike the hip-hop artists turned "designers" they refuse to play into a stereptype....the dress Lawrence designed for Jennifer Aniston is more then enough proof that he's in a different caliber then P. Diddy.
I think people launch the venom at P. Diddy because he's the one calling himself designer, not the public.
Here's a Sean John Collection ad from the Sept Vogue supplement. Notice where it says "Est. 1969." That's Puffy's birth year, not the date this concern was founded. It's yet another layer of smoke and mirrors. Everytime he walks out on that stage it should be Robert Rigutto instead (or whoever is currently head designer).
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You certainly have good points on the issue, Spike, I certainly understand where you're coming from. You're an advocate for the higher forms of fashion, for the elements of craftsmanship that keep it respectable and slightly ellusive and you're certainly not alone. I'm sure everyone on the board appreciates your comments.
It will be interesting to see what Sean John's store, his nod from the CFDA, and his attempt to bridge casual and high fashion, Harlem and the Hamptons will do not only for American fashion but for upcoming African American designers. It's very valid simply because fashion, for some reason, always wants to hush ehtnicity; Naomi Campbell and Liya Kebede, it seems, are and should be enough to cancel out any of that kind of talk, the speculations which makes peoples skin crawl, the growing sentiment that being PC is simply boring. But here is a mogul, an entertainer who not only is crossing over into the rarefied world of high fashion with something brash and overly masculine as to appear threatning but also investing in its future thanks to his cash injection into Zac Posen's line.
It just all makes me wonder if fashion will continually pine for the lily white past and whether it will continue to be champion it in a world that is increasingly becoming interconnected and an America where even the world 'minority', as we speak, is quickly growing invalid. P. Diddy, then, is just cracking open a door that may be blown off its hinges by the young and the hungry who, unlike him, are going to be more than willing to use the things we refuse to speak about, refuse to acknowledge, as fuel.
It will be interesting to see what Sean John's store, his nod from the CFDA, and his attempt to bridge casual and high fashion, Harlem and the Hamptons will do not only for American fashion but for upcoming African American designers. It's very valid simply because fashion, for some reason, always wants to hush ehtnicity; Naomi Campbell and Liya Kebede, it seems, are and should be enough to cancel out any of that kind of talk, the speculations which makes peoples skin crawl, the growing sentiment that being PC is simply boring. But here is a mogul, an entertainer who not only is crossing over into the rarefied world of high fashion with something brash and overly masculine as to appear threatning but also investing in its future thanks to his cash injection into Zac Posen's line.
It just all makes me wonder if fashion will continually pine for the lily white past and whether it will continue to be champion it in a world that is increasingly becoming interconnected and an America where even the world 'minority', as we speak, is quickly growing invalid. P. Diddy, then, is just cracking open a door that may be blown off its hinges by the young and the hungry who, unlike him, are going to be more than willing to use the things we refuse to speak about, refuse to acknowledge, as fuel.
In all honesty, I would love to see more black designers break into high fashion, I mean talent certainly isn't limited to white designers. Unfortunately it seems like so many of the notable black designers fall into the stereotype of Urban.
Honestly, I think people like the Lawrence Steele and Patrick Robinson are the ones everyone should pay attention to, I think it's totally unfair that people like Kimora and Russell and Puffy are what people see as black designers rather then those who have talent.
As I said, for me this issue is totally not about ethnicity, I just think that Puffy in particular is totally not worthy of being considered a designer......plus it's just like, dude, you can't do everything so stop thinking you can.
Honestly, I think people like the Lawrence Steele and Patrick Robinson are the ones everyone should pay attention to, I think it's totally unfair that people like Kimora and Russell and Puffy are what people see as black designers rather then those who have talent.
As I said, for me this issue is totally not about ethnicity, I just think that Puffy in particular is totally not worthy of being considered a designer......plus it's just like, dude, you can't do everything so stop thinking you can.
This doesn't shock me much, fith avenue is going down the drain anway, and 41st street isnt exactly a primo location, we are talking at least 15 blocks from where the real designers are. I heard a rumor from a friend who works in real estate that Fendi's flagship on fith is closing and is going to be replaced by, just wait.......
abercrombie and fitch. So lets be honest, Fith Avenue is basicaly done, and has been for a long time, so this newest news shouldnt exactly be a huge shocker.
abercrombie and fitch. So lets be honest, Fith Avenue is basicaly done, and has been for a long time, so this newest news shouldnt exactly be a huge shocker.
EWWWW.. he has got his own store on 5th avenue???
Like you said.. fifth avenue is long gone been perceived as hip and expensive...come to think of it... where is an expensive area in NYC??? it is all spread out now........
You have Barneys on fifth.. but then you have SoHo.. and LES.. and all these other selections... .......anyway.. I digress it is late..
and one more
If that's true, it's absolutely tragic. 
mikeijames
no tom ford, no thanks.
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and another thing: i think that sean john, in many ways, is the new tommy hilfiger...i mean they seem to operate on almost exactly the same business strategies...and remember, just because sean "p diddy" combs may be at the helm does not mean that some very talented and legitimate designers aren't working underneath him. in fact, i would argue that it's obvious that that has to be the case.
Originally posted by ionn24@Sep 2 2004, 08:10 AM
That would be so awesome to have AnF ... ugh.. always have to travel down the the seaport to buy stuff.. which is annoying....
Looks like Fendi is not doing well at all huh?! Anyone know where they are moving to???
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I hope they are not moving to Soho. There is enough trash here already.
Faust,
I was not playing the race card. I mentioned the color thing to stay I understand how a guy like PD could aspire to want to be in fashion ( as a kid ,myself and many kids like him admired fashion growing up and having style is part our so called ( black) culture as it is for others.
Your points are a great reason to hate P.Diddy. In fact your points are the strongest I have ever heard as why someone does not like P.D. I wish others could be as
clear.
But I still give him credit in terms of going out and achieving his dreams. That is my main point. As I said in other posts he is not my favorite person, but i give him credit
as a businessman for doing what they do, wether i like it or not.
Now I know people admiring someone as a businesperson is shallow. Many never really understand how screwed up these coporations and people in business on many levels really are and what they do to people, families, cultures and societies, which I applaud you for so clearly stating.
I was not playing the race card. I mentioned the color thing to stay I understand how a guy like PD could aspire to want to be in fashion ( as a kid ,myself and many kids like him admired fashion growing up and having style is part our so called ( black) culture as it is for others.
Your points are a great reason to hate P.Diddy. In fact your points are the strongest I have ever heard as why someone does not like P.D. I wish others could be as
clear.
But I still give him credit in terms of going out and achieving his dreams. That is my main point. As I said in other posts he is not my favorite person, but i give him credit
as a businessman for doing what they do, wether i like it or not.
Now I know people admiring someone as a businesperson is shallow. Many never really understand how screwed up these coporations and people in business on many levels really are and what they do to people, families, cultures and societies, which I applaud you for so clearly stating.
softgrey
flaunt the imperfection
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Originally posted by Theory@Aug 31 2004, 08:48 PM
Iyour post, especially because it's 100% truth, especially the first part of what you said. But that's a discussion that I've touched on in another thread and won't bring into this one, despite the fact it's clear as day......but when you call people on it, people deny it and claim
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your entire argument goes in the toilet with two words...
patrick robinson...
loved and adored by all...no issuues...only talent...
the bias is against complete lack of design skills...he's got his name on a brand and people buy it not because he is a talented deisgner...but because he is a hip hop producer..
most of us don't respect any of those kinds of brands..because we respect fashion designers...and 'poofy' isn't one (yes, i spelled it that way on purpose)...and it bugs us that he takes away from legitimately talented designers...and is named menswear designer of the YEAR...?!?!?!...i mean...c'mon...
Unfortunately, being successful these days does not equal being talented. Witness Paris Hilton coming out with a book and a CD. Now she is a writer and a singer. Sickening.
Puffy has achieved a major celebrity status because he chose to, afte he made enough money in the music industry. Dre could've done the same thing if he wanted to, wouldn't you agree?
All I'm saying is Puffy has no merit as a fashion designer, just like J.Lo or Gwen Stefanie or even Stella McCartney (even though she has fashion education).
On some level I understand you, clay. It's good to see someone go from rugs to riches.
On some level I understand you, clay. It's good to see someone go from rugs to riches.
That is my point, however small that may be in the fact that you and SG are totally on point as why he sucks and why he desrves no credit as a designer. Again i say BRAVO for wording it the way you did. I agree totally with your points. I think Stella is not bad though....
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[/quote]That is my point, however small that may be in the fact that you and SG are totally on point as why he sucks and why he desrves no credit as a designer. Again i say BRAVO for wording it the way you did. I agree totally with your points. I think Stella is not bad though....
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