Sean John Opens On 5th Avenue

[faust]

Originally posted by clay@Sep 2 2004, 11:10 AM
That is my point, however small that may be in the fact that you and SG are totally on point as why he sucks and why he desrves no credit as a designer. Again i say BRAVO for wording it the way you did. I agree totally with your points. I think Stella is not bad though....

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Thanks

We can agree to disagree about Stella

 

[clay]

Agreed

 

[stylegurrl]

Personally, I admire anyone who is successful whether I like them as a person or not. However, I completely agree with those who feel that Sean Combs is not deserving of being labeled a designer, nor does his business belong in the same category as Gucci, Prada etc. He has essentially bought his place in the fashion industry, just like numerous other celebrity designers. There are many talented students in fashion schools all over the world who will graduate and have to struggle to find backing, if they find any at all. It's a bit disconcerting to see how celebrities are pushing aside true designers and/or using them to build companies.

SG, I also don't understand how he was named Menswear designer of the year. That was an insult to the other designers in that category. It makes you wonder though, since many big name designers have design teams, why do any of them get the awards when they aren't really designing the clothes?

 

[AlexN]

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Sep 2 2004, 12:13 PM
It makes you wonder though, since many big name designers have design teams, why do any of them get the awards when they aren't really designing the clothes?

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I've never understood this. What do the big name people do if they're not designing the clothes? For instance, I heard that Prada can't sew. Then what the hell does she do, and why is the label called Prada?

 

[stylegurrl]

Originally posted by AlexN@Sep 2 2004, 12:41 PM
I've never understood this. What do the big name people do if they're not designing the clothes? For instance, I heard that Prada can't sew. Then what the hell does she do, and why is the label called Prada?

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It seems that they are just the 'creative directors' who stand around approving of other people's work and then putting their names on the masthead.

 

[clay]

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Sep 2 2004, 12:53 PM
It seems that they are just the 'creative directors' who stand around approving of other people's work and then putting their names on the masthead.

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100% correct

 

[Theory]

But isn't the case in every field, dare I say, the way of the world?

Many students who deserve to Harvard never go, and many, due to nepotism are admitted. I could cite several examples of this, but we all know it to be true.There are plenty of talented people in the world, but talent alone does not alwyas win in the long run. Should it? Perhaps. However, in order for that to happen, we would have to emend all the steps/standards it takes to get to that place. In other words, the best man/woman does not always win. Puffy has the backing and in this money hungry society, he would be foolish to have a myopic vision with respect to the *empire* he wants to build. People sell their own creativity and talent all the time...in music, media, the arts, even science and technology. Look how many people graduate college and have to *struggle* compared to their counterparts who may have attended school.

It is up to the individual to act upon the opportunities presented to them.....anyone can do that...it is up to a leader to create such opportunties and execute them...sometimes the most talented one cannot do both....

I don't find it too disconcerting at all, but then again I don't believe he has committed some sacreligious act with respect to fashion.

Originally posted by stylegurrl@Sep 2 2004, 01:13 PM
He has essentially bought his place in the fashion industry, just like numerous other celebrity designers. There are many talented students in fashion schools all over the world who will graduate and have to struggle to find backing, if they find any at all. It's a bit disconcerting to see how celebrities are pushing aside true designers and/or using them to build companies.

 

[FunkyDiva]

I think there is a bit of an "elitist" bias, when it comes to urbanwear. I think, for the most part, the people who praise Victor & Rolf (whether they get it or not) are very quick to criticize the "urbanwear" industry. I don't have an artistic or consumer appreciation for any of the urban brands, but I respect Sean John and Phat Farm. Sean Combs is a stylist and marketer...not a designer. He creates concepts and images...not sketches and swatches. Just like Stella McCartney, Tommy Hilfiger and the praised former interior design student, Tom Ford. I understand calling Baby Phat tacky, and Fetish and Rocawear. But Sean John is not. The suit collection is beautiful and believe it or not makes plenty of money (by people who wear suits, not teenagers). And the streetwear collection is of excellent quality. Be honest, have any of you really gone in the store and looked at the stuff or are you just lumping "rap" clothes as one big cheap, tacky industry?

 

[faust]

Originally posted by FunkyDiva@Sep 3 2004, 09:18 AM
I think there is a bit of an "elitist" bias, when it comes to urbanwear. I think, for the most part, the people who praise Victor & Rolf (whether they get it or not) are very quick to criticize the "urbanwear" industry. I don't have an artistic or consumer appreciation for any of the urban brands, but I respect Sean John and Phat Farm. Sean Combs is a stylist and marketer...not a designer. He creates concepts and images...not sketches and swatches. Just like Stella McCartney, Tommy Hilfiger and the praised former interior design student, Tom Ford. I understand calling Baby Phat tacky, and Fetish and Rocawear. But Sean John is not. The suit collection is beautiful and believe it or not makes plenty of money (by people who wear suits, not teenagers). And the streetwear collection is of excellent quality. Be honest, have any of you really gone in the store and looked at the stuff or are you just lumping "rap" clothes as one big cheap, tacky industry?

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No, no bias - the clothes is trash. But I understand that a lot of people simply don't have money to buy designer clothes, so we can rest it at that. And, unlike Tom Ford (whom I don't respect either) who had to design, at least at first, and had to work hard his way up, Puffy simply bought his way in. Puffy is a stylist? Give me a break. And I'm not sure about Puffy's suits selling, I simply don't know, but do you have the sources to back your statements up? Yea, I've seen some of his crap, and I don't want/have to see it again.

 

[kimair]

to get back on the original topic...

has anyone gone to the store? I live on the west coast and won't be back east for a while. wondering if anyone has been there and their thoughts...

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by faust@Sep 3 2004, 09:29 AM
No, no bias - the clothes is trash. But I understand that a lot of people simply don't have money to buy designer clothes, so we can rest it at that. And, unlike Tom Ford (whom I don't respect either) who had to design, at least at first, and had to work hard his way up, Puffy simply bought his way in. Puffy is a stylist? Give me a break. And I'm not sure about Puffy's suits selling, I simply don't know, but do you have the sources to back your statements up? Yea, I've seen some of his crap, and I don't want/have to see it again.

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I was going to say the same thing faust......even if you hate Ford, he worked under a designer and then worked behind the scenes at Gucci for 4 years before getting any fame.....any famous designers have, (well, except for Zac Posen ).

And, no offense to anyone, but Puffy is hardly a stylist for two reasons, his personal style isn't exactly impressive and he has a stylist who tells him what to wear, so he doesn't really have any style does he?

 

[onehotgrrl]

I think there is a bit of an "elitist" bias, when it comes to urbanwear.

FunkyDiva- there is a HUGE elitist bias against urbanwear. They lump every urban label together without consideration.

 

[PrinceOfCats]

The man is scum as far as I'm concerned and the label is a reflection of his grotesque lifestyle and complete vacuosity.

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by onehotgrrl@Sep 3 2004, 05:27 PM
FunkyDiva- there is a HUGE elitist bias against urbanwear. They lump every urban label together without consideration.

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I'm quite confused by this comment.......are the majority of us wrong for thinking that the names behind some of the urban labels are no talent egocentric idiots who wouldn't know fashion if it bit them in the ***?

Do you really think that people like Diddy, the Simmons' and Jay Z are people helping to mold modern fashion or contributing anything interesting to it? And perhaps us elitists lump all of the urban labels together because they all produce the same things, there's no difference between labels, there are no personalities, no staples, it's the same t-shirt with a different logo.

 

[pennyfei]

Diddy is not among the most talented but he certainly knows the market and how to manipulate the fashion crowd. Sean John has a huge even though not so diverse market. I think the hip-hop urban crowd still counts as his No.1 customer.

 

[mishahoi]

Originally posted by Spike413@Sep 3 2004, 05:51 PM
And perhaps us elitists lump all of the urban labels together because they all produce the same things, there's no difference between labels, there are no personalities, no staples, it's the same t-shirt with a different logo.

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i dont wear urban clothing, but this point is somewhat moot considering the designers we all love tend to produce similar items year after year anyway. oh, and the t-shirt thing? -just like the button up cardigan, although i say the tshirts with different logos on them are far more interesting than the same cardigan seen 1,000 times.

and i wish you wouldnt call yourself "elitist"...it perpetuates that horribbly snobby image that fashon lovers get pinned to them

 

[faust]

Originally posted by onehotgrrl@Sep 3 2004, 05:27 PM
FunkyDiva- there is a HUGE elitist bias against urbanwear. They lump every urban label together without consideration.

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Ok, this is my last post on this thread, because I don't like running in circles. First, this is a FASHION forum, and there is a huge difference between fashion and clothes. Fashion implies artistic creativity and design skills. Mass produced clothes is not fashion. Unlike the fashion editors whom Puffy pays handsomely, we on tFS don't have to nod to his trash and call it fashion. These "urban" brands and whatever-you-want-to-call-them brands like Gap, AnF, Express, etc. are not fashion. Puffy's clothes are not fashion, he posseses neither artistic creativity nor design skills. End of story. This topic does not warrant any more attention, because it is not about fashion, at least not the way I see it.

 

[Spike413]

Originally posted by mishahoi@Sep 4 2004, 05:28 AM

and i wish you wouldnt call yourself "elitist"...it perpetuates that horribbly snobby image that fashon lovers get pinned to them

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Not to confuse you, I was being sarcastic by refering to those of us who don't regard Puffy as fashion as elitists.......onehotgrrl seems to think we're elistists and at this point in this discussion I no longer have it in me to defend my opinion.

 

[mikeijames]

Originally posted by faust@Sep 4 2004, 11:58 AM
Ok, this is my last post on this thread, because I don't like running in circles. First, this is a FASHION forum, and there is a huge difference between fashion and clothes. Fashion implies artistic creativity and design skills. Mass produced clothes is not fashion. Unlike the fashion editors whom Puffy pays handsomely, we on tFS don't have to nod to his trash and call it fashion. These "urban" brands and whatever-you-want-to-call-them brands like Gap, AnF, Express, etc. are not fashion. Puffy's clothes are not fashion, he posseses neither artistic creativity nor design skills. End of story. This topic does not warrant any more attention, because it is not about fashion, at least not the way I see it.

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i agree with you (and i find it kind of odd that this topic warrants this much attention in a forum where maybe a dozen people even consider wearing these brands) but i still think that stores like zara, banana republic, armani exchange, gap, express, and others don't get their own topic when they open boutiques on fifth avenue...they offer NOTHING to fashion besides the invisible basics we ALL wear, but there's not the same outcry (like they are ruining fifth avenue)...

 

[AlexN]

Originally posted by mikeijames@Sep 5 2004, 10:00 AM
i agree with you (and i find it kind of odd that this topic warrants this much attention in a forum where maybe a dozen people even consider wearing these brands) but i still think that stores like zara, banana republic, armani exchange, gap, express, and others don't get their own topic when they open boutiques on fifth avenue...they offer NOTHING to fashion besides the invisible basics we ALL wear, but there's not the same outcry (like they are ruining fifth avenue)...

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I've never quite understood lumping Armani Exchange in with stores like Gap and Banana Republic. I know they're basically the same quality and everything, but A/X is not even remotely close to as boring or basic as these other two. It's far from a polo-shirt and khakis store.