The Universe, Our World

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by Erin@Aug 20 2004, 11:38 AM
The thing I have to question is... does it matter?  Does it matter if we know how we're derived, or born, as a kind?  Overall, I see how it gives some a sense of being, but still... there are always questions left uananswered, and as human beings, I feel that we can only get so much answered without basing certain things on assumptions.

It may seem pertinent to some to have an answer, just an answer, for it all.  Some get that through religion, some through philosophy, and some just plain don't.  Whatever.  And that's okay, either way.  But in this lifetime (people who believe in life after death, excluded ), what difference will it make if we find the answers?  Just to have peace of mind?

I don't mean to offend everybody. But that's been at the back of my mind concerning this issue.  

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I totally agree with what you've just said here. There are no solid answers to any of these; is there even any truth? Everyone is just throwing around ideas to which isn't any one solution. People have tried to figure out so many of these questions for ages, and haven't been able to. If so many great thinkers and scientists of the past couldn't put it all together, why should we be able to in a basic discussion here? Not to say that we shouldn't try to figure it out at all, (that's part of being human), but I believe that it's important to recognize that there are no answers. And even if someone does one day come up with something that is apparently a fact, there's always the chance that it may end up being wrong. Someone here mentioned that for ages people believed that the earth was flat. Centuries later, we've now gotten rid of that concept in favour of a more modern theory. But who's to know that what we believe now isn't going to be thrown away for some new idea? There are so many different theories and endless questions, but I don't think that there will ever be any real answers.

 

[ahhGucci]

There comes a point when, the only logical thing you can do, is understand that you don't have the answer to everything, and accept there is a certain thing called mystery.

Real answers? get real

 

[Tuti*Fruiti]

i just find it extremely interesting and like thinking about it

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by Tuti*Fruiti@Aug 20 2004, 01:48 PM
i just find it extremely interesting and like thinking about it

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Same here.

 

[ahhGucci]

Ignorance is bliss...
I'm not smiling

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by ahhGucci@Aug 20 2004, 01:50 PM
Ignorance is bliss...
I'm not smiling

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Do you have a choice?

 

[ahhGucci]

Choice in what? Lets not get metaphorical now

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Originally posted by tealady+Aug 20 2004, 10:13 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tealady @ Aug 20 2004, 10:13 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>This reminds me of an old joke. The devil says to God, "I'm going to make me a man." God says, "Go ahead, make you a man." The devil bent down and began to scoop up some clay. "Ah, ah, ah -- start by making your own clay!" (see Genesis 2:7 for the reference.)

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oh i love that ...and that reference to genesis is perfect lol


<!--QuoteBegin-saad@Aug 20 2004, 12:26 PM
but dont you think its unethical? cloning and all the other crap we as humans are trying to do? why are we trying to become god?
i think were gonna blow up if we go on....

the ancient egyptians were destroyed when they got extra smart...there are many other civilizations that ceased to exist because they got smarter than they were supposed to be.

i dont know if any of you heard this before but there was a civilization that got so damn smart at making calulations (of all kinds) that they knew things people werent supposed to know, even predict the future accurately.
God sent Gabriel down on the earth and asked him to talk to the people there...he went to a couple of kids and asked them of their knowledge. he then asked him if they could tell if there was any angel around. the kids spent a few minutes calculating (astronomy etc) and then they told Gabriel that there was indeed an angel very close by!
and that was that. the civilization was destroyed then. (reference: Quran)

so it all really boils down to the fact that we dont know anything! we seem smart now, but we never know where the knowledge ends...

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saad, i don't mean to challenge you, but where in the Quran does it say that? i'm currently in the process of reading the english translation of the Quran and i have never even read anything remotely close to that...if anything, from what i've read, the Quran very much encourages studying all that is around you in order to increase your knowledge

here are some english translations to various passages (btw...Allah and God are interchangeable)

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[20:114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth. Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."

[29:20] Say: Travel through the earth and see how Allah originated creation; so will Allah produce the second creation (of the Afterlife for Allah has power over all things.

 

[Tuti*Fruiti]

Exactly, if God/Allah did create this universe why would he not want us to explore it? What would be the purpose of keeping us on this one planet that will not sustain us for eternity. Maybe the very reason for our existance as a race is to evolve spiritually, mentally and physically.

We are not in the slightest danger of knowing EVERYTHING, we can't even travel to the last planet in our own galaxy, nevermind the entire universe.

 

[ahhGucci]

Originally posted by CaptainJackSparrow@Aug 21 2004, 12:13 AM
oh i love that ...and that reference to genesis is perfect lol
saad, i don't mean to challenge you, but where in the Quran does it say that? i'm currently in the process of reading the english translation of the Quran and i have never even read anything remotely close to that...if anything, from what i've read, the Quran very much encourages studying all that is around you in order to increase your knowledge

here are some english translations to various passages (btw...Allah and God are interchangeable)

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[20:114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth. Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."

[29:20] Say: Travel through the earth and see how Allah originated creation; so will Allah produce the second creation (of the Afterlife for Allah has power over all things.

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I couldn't find it myself.

 

[ahhGucci]

Since we are on the topic of Islam, Islam was one religion that celebrated and supported scientific discovery, and if you read you're english version of the Qu'ran, you'll find references to it.

Its not the way it is now though, along the way in every major religion, someone imposes their own belief rather than sticking to divine instruction. Just look at what Paul wrote in the new testament of the bible in regards to women.

 

[Lilliana]

The periodic table came to a russian scientist in a dream!

did you know that a german or so scientist had exactly the same idea at the same time without knowing about the russian...

what you call sixt sense I believe to be our subconsciousness collecting info all the time and processing it nonstop and then - suddenly for the consciousness - it pops out with an idea. it's very likely that his should happen in a dream to me and not at all a sign of unknown forces at work since dreaming is the most direct way toget in touch with the subconsciousness.
but then maybe all this freudian consciousnesses are all wrong, and it's something else. one can't *know* it, but I like to stick to to the scientific principle of working with the interim truth meaning: as long as the opposite is not prooved regard something to be true. otherwise we would just talk and research in circles.

 

[Lilliana]

I think the topic of science vs religion is very interesting. at the beginning most religions promote science, but when difficult times for religions come and science discovers things that don't match with the religions believe the relationship between religion and science becomes problematic.
naturally it is hard for religions esp. those with a messias to accept certain scientific facts, since their beliefs are godgiven and as such of eternal truth. on the other hand science can't denie what it sees. so it becomes the choice of the individual to decide which is true for him.
but I think this is not necessary, chuches can accept certain ideas. I mean the chritan churches now all believe in the heliocentric world view. and it is a simple historic fact that religions who don't adapt to new realities in the world including new technologies sooner or later diminish and get replaced with others.
the ancient egyptians didn't get destroyed because they knew to much imho there simply appeared a military more powerful empire then theirs (romans). empires come, swallow others, crumble or get swallowed by others and dissappear, that's it.
btw the egyptian culture lived on in the roman empire and simply grew into something else. I am very sorry saad I don't want to critisize you but I can't believe that god should destroy a whole culture because of too much knowledge: if you believe that you also must believe that it is possible for human beings to achieve knowledge that only god should be able to hold, that would mean that human beings are godlike and the difference between us and god could be diminished so that would be the reason why god has to murder anyone who knows too much .... oh gosh sorry I got a bit carried away by that argumentational line..

sorry for the bad english and long post

 

[Lilliana]

but probably I just misunderstood all that about destroying cultures that know too much...

 

[ahhGucci]

comment withdrawn

 

[purplelucrezia]

Originally posted by college girl@Aug 21 2004, 07:43 AM
I am very sorry saad I don't want to critisize you but I can't believe that god should destroy a whole culture because of too much knowledge

I must have missed that...

 

[saad]

Originally posted by CaptainJackSparrow@Aug 21 2004, 04:13 AM

saad, i don't mean to challenge you, but where in the Quran does it say that? i'm currently in the process of reading the english translation of the Quran and i have never even read anything remotely close to that...if anything, from what i've read, the Quran very much encourages studying all that is around you in order to increase your knowledge

my mistake. i should have made myself clear. i came out wrong if you think i said the whole thing was in the Quran. i was talking about the reference in the Quran of certain civilizations that were destroyed over time because of their 'extreme-ness' in things.
the detailed story isnt in the Quran, of course.
the Quran is a very intense piece of writing. "an ocean of knowledge"
we as humans can not understand everything said in it. there are double meanings to every aayah (phrase/sentense) and so some islamic scholars have interpreted it to the best of their knowledge..in accordance to the sayings and teachings of Mohammed (pbuh)
one of the very famous and genuine explainations/interpretations is of Mr. Moududi who has given detailed interpretations and 'the story behind' everything said in the Quran. the whole story comes from there.

of course i think reading and understanding the Quran on my own a much better option becasue it is indeed a personal spiritual experience.

im still in the process of learning. being a good muslim does not in any way make me more knowledgable just becasue id like to think so

tuti fruiti, Allah indeed created the universe but it is only the earth thats for humans. at least for what it is. spiritual exploring is encouraged, but only till a point where you dont lose yourself.
and we are humans! we're very prone to losing ourselves!
it is mandatory for every muslim to believe in the last day--which gives us reason to understand the purpose of His keeping us on this one planet that will not sustain us for eternity (which is what, 70, 80 years?! our life span?) because a life of infinite duration is to follow once that day comes.
we of course dont know where the heaven and hell are? maybe the suns hell and jupiter heaven? who knows?!

im glad that youre reading the Quran, jacksparrow! may you find what youre looking for.
ignore my mistake up there, and if you ahve any questions, do pm me i'd be glad to help out and discuss

 

[ahhGucci]

Saad, I don't know where you are getting the references to us as muslims having to stay on earth

 

[saad]

gucci! stop vandalizing me!

open up your head and understand what im saying!!!!

tuti fruiti made a comment about why Allah would want us to stay on one planet...

im just telling her that its not so... we're on the earth for this life only (the 70 or so years that we live) and then we have move on....hopefully to greener pastures and no body knows where that is.
the universe is a big big place...it could be anywhere!?1

 

[ahhGucci]

edited to avoid pissing some people off